herbs for taranulas (medical, not eating)

[8ballphoenix]

I'm just guessing here but it sounds like you're in the planning

stage not in the "lets do a little spring cleaning with teatree oil and sprinkle a little Italian seasoning on your spider" stage.

Here's what I think: you're on to something.

Here's the bad news: being a revolutionary sucks. It means hard, hard work. Naysayers constantly attacking you. etc.

I look at the broad range idea you have and I think, "this is the type of things a person dedicates their life too..." Before you even begin, you have to teach yourself everything you can about spider, especially tarantula, physiology, biology and neurology. No mean feat that. While at the same time trying to teach yourself everything you can about Medicinal herbs. Besides the folk history of medicinal herbs, Europe and what was formally the USSR have been doing scientific studies, etc. for decades. So, the herbs that your friends mother is selling have gone through decades, if not centuries, of trial and error on humans. So, we're talking maybe getting a degree in both. I'm not trying to beat your idea down, like I said, I think its a good one. Just a BIG one.

If you're in this to start a business, I think you should focus on feeders. Here's why: most pet store feeder mice are fed dog or cat food which isn't very healthy or even good for them but it does make them nice and fat, is cheep and they produce more offspring. So, the pinky that someone buys today to feed to their blondi tonight is going to have less nutritional value than a baby mouse nursed and given birth to by a momma that was eating an optimal diet. Look at chicken eggs, free range eggs have more Omega 3s and are generally better for you. Add hormonal free and people are willing to pay more. So, there's your business idea: organic mice fed on an organic "natural" diet and good clean water (ie not tap). (This would be similar to natural grain feed or, take it one step further, grass feed beef.) The challenge here is doing some research into what is an optimal mouse diet.

Then, if that works out for you, proceed to crickets. Many times pet stores, the good stores that is, specifically gut load for reptiles. With reptiles, there has to be a balance between phosphorus and calcium. If that becomes way off balance, then that can lead to metabolic bone disease. (This is why you don't have lettuce as a standard part of an Iquana's diet.) There are supplements that have this ratio waaaaaaay off. And most places recommend heavy emphasis on proteins for young reptiles. I don't know enough about Ts to know what would be best to specifically gut load for their specific nutritional needs. (I'm in a little over my head when it comes to all this ratio stuff concerning reptiles and invertebrates.) So, again, by studying what a tarantula's vitamin and mineral needs are and then gearing the gut loading to that would be very beneficial.

So, to sum it all up, if I had your big idea I would: 1) focus on providing optimal nutrition (ie through specially bred and fed feeders) 2) after that start looking into things like probiotics and 3) move onto herb remedies.

Here are some interesting links about how people are revolutionizing dog and cat nutrition:
http://www.wysong.net/
http://www.barfworld.com/
Yeah, they may have nothing to do with what you are specifically trying to accomplish but they are paving a similar path with vertebrates. (I should note that Wysong and BARF are still controversial.)

Best of luck.

 

[JayzunBoget]

jen650s, would you apply that exact same argument to all arachnid medicines? I don't see where you can draw any distinct differences.:?

 

[Robert Jordan]

Ive already experimented with this... i blow smoke in there cages and they become relaxed and eat lots of crickets and drink lots and lots of water. Instead of stridulating for some reason they instead make a noise that sounds like "duuuuuuuuuudeeeeeeee"... :liar:

My Avic. has dreads.

 

[jen650s]

jen650s, would you apply that exact same argument to all arachnid medicines? I don't see where you can draw any distinct differences.:?

Unless everything reasonably possible has been tried (as in the case of your T. blondi) I guess I would. When everything else has been tried and you are still in a life or death situation trying new things most likely won't make the situation worse (dead is dead, be it now or in a little while) and it might possibly improve things.

Although I am not an herbalist, I have spent a considerable amount of time studying ethno-botany (the study of how indigenous populations use plants) and have been amazed at how many modern medicines can trace their ancestry to one group of indigenous peoples or another. The poison is in the dose and with some of these plants a gram or two can soothe or heal a problem, an ounce or two can some times make the same problem worse, cause a new problem or in a few instances kill.

When I was first developing an interest in this area I studied with a woman who was the daughter of the last tribal shaman of one of the local tribes and one of the most apparent things from her point of view is how much we have lost in not maintaining and cataloging that information. For instance she knows what the uses for most of the plants was, but not the preparation or dosages in many cases.

I also agree with 8ballphoenix about it being a life study to even begin to figure out if this is a possibility and will most likely cost the lives of many Ts . In a scientific study this is a reasonable situation. In a hobbiest forum however, you have an altogether different situation. Look at the flack Brent got when he wanted to track the DNA of some of the natives because it would involve the death of some of the animals.

And maybe vilified is too strong a word, but when your deliberate actions lead to the death of your pets and you post it in a poor me thread the stone throwing will begin. Heck, around here stones get thrown for a lot more minor things than that (just using the "wrong" substrate for instance )

 

[NevularScorpion]

Unless everything reasonably possible has been tried (as in the case of your T. blondi) I guess I would. When everything else has been tried and you are still in a life or death situation trying new things most likely won't make the situation worse (dead is dead, be it now or in a little while) and it might possibly improve things.

Although I am not an herbalist, I have spent a considerable amount of time studying ethno-botany (the study of how indigenous populations use plants) and have been amazed at how many modern medicines can trace their ancestry to one group of indigenous peoples or another. The poison is in the dose and with some of these plants a gram or two can soothe or heal a problem, an ounce or two can some times make the same problem worse, cause a new problem or in a few instances kill.

When I was first developing an interest in this area I studied with a woman who was the daughter of the last tribal shaman of one of the local tribes and one of the most apparent things from her point of view is how much we have lost in not maintaining and cataloging that information. For instance she knows what the uses for most of the plants was, but not the preparation or dosages in many cases.

I also agree with 8ballphoenix about it being a life study to even begin to figure out if this is a possibility and will most likely cost the lives of many Ts . In a scientific study this is a reasonable situation. In a hobbiest forum however, you have an altogether different situation. Look at the flack Brent got when he wanted to track the DNA of some of the natives because it would involve the death of some of the animals.

And maybe vilified is too strong a word, but when your deliberate actions lead to the death of your pets and you post it in a poor me thread the stone throwing will begin. Heck, around here stones get thrown for a lot more minor things than that (just using the "wrong" substrate for instance )

I kinda agree with you...

 

[IdahoBiteyThing]

here's a thought

I'd be a lot more reasonable for people to get on board with this thread if you had more than um, 24 posts under your belt. Maybe spend a couple of months reading all the knowledge on this board before revolutionizing the care of tarantulas. Maybe reference some evidence to make your point. Just my 2 cents.

 

[BurrowDweller]

I worked in a shrimp research lab for a bit (a couple of years) and while they are an aquatic arthropod I think this experience fits in well with this thread. We were trying to come up with protocols by which to anesthetize shrimp for some procedures. Going through the literature we found many compounds used in aquaculture to anesthetize fish. We decided to test a few of these. The one we started with was clove oil, at the lowest recommended dosage. The instant it hit the water the shrimp went spastic and were dead in less than 10 seconds. Lesson learned. Just because it has a good result on one species doesn't mean it will have the same effect on others.

 

[bio teacher]

Sure, and why don't we put some gatorade in their water dish when they are dehydrated.

I think the problem here is that when most people hear the word "herb" they think of the kinds we cook with like rosemary or mint.
The OP is talking about medicinal plants and they are much different then what we eat. I've been studying medicinal plants for many years and I really can't think of any that would be helpful to a spider.
Maybe some fenugreek tea in the water to help with internal hydration. Not one come to mind that would help their skin though, its so different from ours that the plants we would use for wounds just wouldn't work on a T.
Before you could ever market ANY herbal mixture for T use, you would need years of trials on your own T's to make sure its safe. Are you willing to do that? I personally wouldn't buy/use anything on any pet if it was tested to be safe. What would you do if your mixture killed someones collection? You would be responsible not only for a refund of the product but also for replacement animals.
You would be better off making herbal supplements for dogs or cats, at least we know what is safe for them.

 

[CjP]

I work in a call center, and have an idea about little tiny headsets for Ts so they can call me when they... aw, I missed it already. Nevermind.

 

[JayzunBoget]

Sure, and why don't we put some gatorade in their water dish when they are dehydrated.

It's got what tarantulas crave!!!
Heh, that was a referance, for anyone who didn't see that particular comedy/horror movie.
Anyways, what I see emerging from this thread are
a) we are very hard on newbs with new ideas
b) medical experimentation is frowned upon by many
c) herbal experimentation is frowned upon by most

That's okay, be it as it may. However, if you ever have to take your tarantula to a vet, and it is prescribed medicine, remember that the use of that medicine was derived by someone not unlike scar is my t who did not get stomped on by his peers.
Best of luck to ya!

 

[JayzunBoget]

I work in a call center, and have an idea about little tiny headsets for Ts so they can call me when they... aw, I missed it already. Nevermind.

What the ?!?:?

 

[EDED]

not really an herb, but i wonder what would happen if you feed your spider a cricket dusted with ecdysterone? will it molt faster? or will it molt prematurely and die?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20-Hydroxyecdysone

 

[SterlingAce]

I think it's a good idea especialy the part about starting with feeders.Another thing you can maybe look into is not a remedy but more prevention eg paw paw mixed with honey helps to prevent infection on an open wound for humans.I'm not saying that will work on T's but something that can help a t that's lost a leg etc so that it will not get infected or be as volnerable to mold.

Or something other than startch or glue that when the T molts the molt is easier.

 

[Mushroom Spore]

remember that the use of that medicine was derived by someone not unlike scar is my t who did not get stomped on by his peers.

I'd say someone with full degrees in their field and proper knowledge of what they're doing is pretty unlike someone who is "less than half the age of most board members" who wants to start messing around with animal experimentation for *money* because their mother sells herbs for human use. I think that's actually what's been bothering me the most about this whole thread, it just didn't click.

Still think it's a bad idea in general, blah blah etc posted that stuff already. I need to go to bed, this week is killing me and I think I'm taking it out on the forums.

 

[sylverbullit]

...what.

Tarantulas don't eat plants, I don't think "herbs" are going to have any effect on them. Plants are not going to help them if they're injured, we already HAVE various substances used in the hobby as bandages to stop bleeding in spiders. Plants are not going to help them molt, proper care is - and maybe some luck too.

The only way you're going to "make their food better" is to gutload crickets/roaches, but you don't do that with herbs.

how do you gutload a cricket? I've been buying mine gutloaded and they are very expensive compared to the regular ones. I would like to learn to do this on my own to save some $.

 

[von_z]

how do you gutload a cricket? I've been buying mine gutloaded and they are very expensive compared to the regular ones. I would like to learn to do this on my own to save some $.

You feed them so that their 'gut' is 'loaded' with nutritional food, which makes them more nutritious for whatever eats them. If you have been paying extra, you have been getting ripped off.

 

[Mushroom Spore]

how do you gutload a cricket? I've been buying mine gutloaded and they are very expensive compared to the regular ones. I would like to learn to do this on my own to save some $.

Yeah, somebody's been scamming you like mad. Just look up some suggested things to feed crickets - I couldn't tell you just off the top of my head what's good, as I don't feed crickets myself. I *think* you're not supposed to feed oranges or other citrus, but I'll be darned if I can remember why. Can someone confirm/deny that?

 

[smof]

I feed my crickets dry fish food flakes, and supplement it with thin slices of raw potato or carrot for moisture. Have to be careful not to overdo the fresh veggies tho cos too many of em make the crickets sick.

 

[von_z]

I feed my crickets dry fish food flakes, and supplement it with thin slices of raw potato or carrot for moisture. Have to be careful not to overdo the fresh veggies tho cos too many of em make the crickets sick.

You can also buy commercially produced cricket food. Put some in the cricket container, leave them overnight, and presto, gutloaded crickets.

 

[Mushroom Spore]

You can also buy commercially produced cricket food. Put some in the cricket container, leave them overnight, and presto, gutloaded crickets.

What brands are generally recommended? I'm thinking of getting some kind of gecko or maybe a pacman frog once I have some spare cash lying around, and it's occured to me that I should probably start seriously looking into this part too.

Although I'm still terrible at catching crickets, even *with* the "put a tube over them and let them crawl into it" trick. The stupid things always hop out before the tube can go over them!