Hadrurus obscurus?

[Galapoheros]

I'm dumb. I can't believe I bought more scorps. I had to get them though. The source says they came from the Mohave Desert. What do you think?, truly H. obscurus? And I tried to get a male and a female. My only worry is that the diff I see might be because of the possibility one of the scorps is not mature. But I think the small one is mature(don't know 100%), so do y'all think I have a male and fem too? The more I look at the first pic, the more I think the small one has a molt to go(?)

me thinks: male

me thinks: female

 

[beetleman]

wow! they are awesome,they look alittle like my pallidus, i wouldn't mind getting some of those also:drool: yeah, looks like ya gotta pair alright:clap:

 

[Galapoheros]

So do you not think they are H. obscurus? The truth is what it is, I just want to know. I saw some info on the web but can't really tell. Most pics of obscurus I see are darker than these.

 

[beetleman]

they could be,my pallidus is very light like those,but again i'm not definite.

 

[beetleman]

i just looked at some pics of them aswell,the obscurus look alot darker almost like arizonensis,yours are like my pallidus,hmm:? i'm not sure on these.

 

[H. laoticus]

Looks like H. arizonensis to me. They also have that crescent on the carapace.

 

[tarzan2day]

Those are totally H. arizonensis. unless you live in the desert it will be virtually impossible to breed them.

 

[rasputin]

Looks like H. arizonensis to me. They also have that crescent on the carapace.

A Hadrurus is going to look like a Hadrurus. That "crescent" on the carapace? Sounds like the genus to me.

Those are totally H. arizonensis. unless you live in the desert it will be virtually impossible to breed them.

Yes, because Hadrurus arizonensis is that pale...Oh wait, no, it's not that pale. I didn't know it was virtually impossible to breed them, I wonder where the captive breed scorplings keep coming from :?

Okay, now that I've alienated the resident experts on this thread.

Todd, those are clearly of the genus Hadrurus. They are very much not mature, as I can tell by the size comparison of your hand beneath them...and the fact that they have no adult color for any species of the genus Hadrurus. As far as them being H. arizonensis as a couple have guessed, that is a very slight possibility as H. arizonensis have a dark carapace from parturition and it gets darker as they get older. Pallidus is a trinomial of H. arizonensis, or if you'd rather, a subspecies. I'm going to say that, although the legs are pale enough, your scorps are not H. obscurus because the carapace of H. obscurus is very dark. As it stands, I'm going to say that they are in fact the trinomial, Hadrurus arizonensis pallidus. Yes, species of the genus Hadrurus are not easy to breed but it has been done and there is photographic evidence and documentation of this for any sceptic who may try to tell you otherwise. The real task is getting them to molt from one instar to the next...No, living in the desert doesn't help breed or raise this species as they are obligate burrowers and build massive labyrinths so as to raise the RH when they are in their burrow - this is a species that does like and NEED humidity (suggestion: false bottom so that they can choose their humidity by burrowing). Humidity helps with molting but not too much, hence the false bottom suggestion so that the surface stays dry but the earth underneath is humid. 4" minimum for substrate - don't plan on moving your enclosures around too much. For the sake of keeping them from eating each other, I recommend housing them separately until mating time (some have success with communal Hadrurus setups, but most fail and with only two, it's better safe than sorry). You are correct on your sexing, congratulations, it's a pair! Best of luck Todd.

Cheers,
R.S.

 

[H. laoticus]

I think tarzan2day meant to say that you can breed them, but it's very difficult to raise them to adulthood. Otherwise he's wrong lol

I also mentioned the crescent to get rid of H. obscurus pictured here:
http://bugguide.net/images/cache/IL...HNZWHVZGLRRWH3HIL8ZIH8ZHL5ZHL2ZHLCHSLEZLL.jpg

 

[rasputin]

I think tarzan2day meant to say that you can breed them, but it's very difficult to raise them to adulthood. Otherwise he's wrong lol

No, he was pretty clear:

...unless you live in the desert it will be virtually impossible to breed them.

I also mentioned the crescent to get rid of H. obscurus pictured here:
bugguide.garbage

Yeah, the bugguide is a bunch of crap most of the time. Didn't know they had that on there (haven't been there in ages).

 

[Galapoheros]

Haha, ..well as far as raising babies goes, I've read all about how hard it is to raise the babies. I want to try it and is the basic reason I bought these. I've been a little interested in them for over 20 years but never did buy any, I see them in the stores often now. I'm going to assume the problem people have in raising them is the same as the problem people have raising Parabuthus transvaalicus which I haven't had a prob with.

OK well, I want to mess around with this a little more if anybody else wants to. The dark band does have a crescent shape. They do look like pallidus to me so far but were labeled H. obscurus in the store and "from the Mojave Desert" so I want to look a little harder. I'm not sure which "trichobothria" to look for at the base of the moveable finger on the chela though. The male is mature, the pic makes them look small some how, not 100% on the female though.


bugguide.net:

"H. obscurus is related to H. spadix by lacking the 3 accessory trichobothria(compared to arizonensis that has three at the base of the moveable finger on the chela). It also has the darkend pigment extending into the interocular crescent but not to the anterior margin. Many specimens have a faint pale strip extending along the dorsal midline. A *pale* variety (obscurus) has carapace markings that form a "V" pattern that "covers" the eyes instead of a rounded crescent situated somewhat behind the median eyes. This one is known only from California from near Hollister and Fresno and down the Mojave Desert to north of Calexico."

 

[rasputin]

Todd,
You've brought up an interesting point, there was a thread about this earlier this year on the ATS board click here

Also, here's some info that may help from identification to molting and breeding issues:

Soleglad, M. E. 1976. The taxonomy of the genus Hadrurus based on chela trichobothria (Scorpionida :
Vejovidae). J. Arachnol. 3:113-134

Hadley, N. F. 1970, Water Relations Of The Desert Scorpion, Hadrurus Arizonensis. J. Exp. Biol. S3. 547-558

Francke, O.F. and Prendini, L. 2008. Phylogeny and classification of the giant hairy scorpions, Hadrurus Thorell (Iuridae Thorell): A reappraisal. Systematics and Biodiversity 6(2): 205-223.

CH4: Phylogeny of the "hirsutus" group of the genus Hadrurus Thorell, 1876 based on morphology and mitochondrial DNA (Scorpiones: Iuridae). Scorpions 2001 In Memoriam Gary A. Polis
Edited by Victor Fet and Paul A. Selden Published by the British Arachnological Society, August 2001 Pg 5 of the PDF will really help.

Eran Gefen, Cuong Ung, and Allen G. Gibbs. Partitioning of transpiratory water loss of the desert scorpion, Hadrurus arizonensis (Iuridae). J. Ins. Phys. V55, I6, June 2009, PP 544-548 (membership required)

 

[Galapoheros]

Good dig, thanks. The trichobothria pdf is what will help me the most.

 

[rasputin]

Anytime, glad I can help. H. arizonensis is my favorite species and one I'm doing my own research on.

 

[Galapoheros]

I'm feeling more confident they are the pale form of H. obscurus. I've got a magnifier, an eyepiece I can hold with some forceps. I was able to look at the inside of the chela and from what I could see, it corresponds with fig 25 in this pdf : http://www.americanarachnology.org/JoA_free/JoA_v3_n2/JoA_v3_p113.pdf I'm going to try and get a scan of the inside of the chela later.

I don't like diagrams, it's probably because I'm not good at getting info from them. Why don't they use REAL macro pictures and point at features on the picture?, instead of having an artist looking at the feature, drawing the feature, then labeling the drawing.... now I'm thinking they are arizonensis again, going to try and scan now.

I just can't get the inside of the chela flat enough against the glass, it's not working since the inside of the chela isn't flat. ...oh well.

 

[rasputin]

Look around for tweezers with the rubber sleeves over them (Bean Farm sells them *bottom of page). You get a second person involved to take up close pictures and then you gently hold your scorp and, oh so gently, grab the palps with the tweezers to turn them so you can photograph them and capture the detail (if the other person is a better scorp handler then have them assume that role.

I hear ya on the drawings. Rich Ayrey from AZSCORPION.COM just documented a new species of Vaejovidae in southern AZ and he used full color photos in the documentation along with the drawings so you knew what you were looking at, it put a smile on my face.

 

[Galapoheros]

I can scan or take a pic very easily by myself, I have a method for all that. It's my camera, it just won't take close-ups that well, almost though. I may try to take a pic through that eye-piece though, that's worked before.

 

[Jeremy Huff]

That is H.a.pallidus, no doubt about it. There are some cross H.a.a and H.a.p that look like obscurus. H. obscurus look like spadix except it has the slight cresent. I have also noticed most specimens have a light colored line bisecting the tergites.

If you want to image trichs, the best way is under UV. They are much easier to see.

Jeremy

 

[Galapoheros]

"slight crescent", what are you referring to, the dark around the eyes? Do you have pics of what you are referring to? It's strange to me that there aren't more pics of the differences out there. And the "pale" form of obcurus ..no pics anywhere?, it's weird to me. Good idea with the BL, I'll try it.

 

[Jeremy Huff]

http://research.amnh.org/users/lorenzo/PPT/SWvorh_2007.htm

Slide 11 and 14 is H. obscurus. The second from the type locality.