gracilis experts only: (and everyone else :)

[Dave]

I was hunting C. gracilis the other day and found some interesting finds. (At this point I'll stop and interject two disclaimers; first, sorry for the bad pics, and second, after countless hours of searching and hundreds of miles, I finally found a good spot, so I won't tell you where it is! lol)

Here's the big question.
I found many normal looking individuals like this male;

But I also found some uniform black with red chela like this;

And this;

And I even found one uniform brown/tan like this;

Are these all gracilis? If so, are they so variable like this? At least, they all look very Centruroides to me.

 

[AzJohn]

Looks like gracilis to me. They come in many shades of dark, with a lot of varience in color, especially around the legs and claws. The first picture is a dead ringer to a male I've raised from 1i.


John

 

[Dave]

The first picture seems to be the most common color form encountered for me. That's why I was curious about the others. It makes me wonder if the venom varies as well.

 

[Koh_]

those are sweet looking ones.

 

[AzJohn]

The first picture seems to be the most common color form encountered for me. That's why I was curious about the others. It makes me wonder if the venom varies as well.

The venom does vary, but only based on location. The central American scorpions are very dangerous, the Florida scorpions aren't.

John

 

[Dave]

I was aware that the central American types are more venomous and in fact wondered about the venom of the different colored ones found (especially the brown/tan one) because of that fact. Interesting.

 

[AzJohn]

I don't think colormorph would have much to do with venom strength. Color diferences are fairly common. Think hair color in people.

John

 

[Dave]

lol I wasn't thinking the actual color changes the venom, more along the lines that the population where I find them is closer related to the Central American variety. If I'm not mistaken, the CA's are browner/tanner in color? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Anansis]

Here's a picture of a representative specimen that I find in Belize. As you can see they are very dark almost black. Also I think the CA specimens are larger than you have in the US.

This is a female with young and as you can see there are at least 2 different color babies. I think that they all darken as they age to become the near black adults.

The differences in color in your specimens may be due to age or timing of molts.

Ollie

 

[jayefbe]

What beautiful pics, Ollie. I love the CA gracilis, I wish they were more common here in the US.

 

[Dave]

Wow, the black ones I found do look very similar to those in your picture.

 

[tarzan2day]

This is an interesting thread. What do yous guys think might happen if you had a big healthy female CA variety and a largeish florida male, and they did the mating dance for some time and then were seperated?

 

[Dave]

Depending on if they actually bred, I think you might get some babies. I found normal looking gracilis, black ones with a little red on the chela, and black ones with dark red legs instead of the usual yellowish. I have a feeling the Floridas and possibly CA's might be interbreeding, if there are or were CA's living in the area where I find them.

I would like to actually see what you'd get to further confirm my thoughts.

 

[jayefbe]

You think there's gene flow between the Florida population and the CA population? I find it hard to believe that they're able to have significant gene flow across enormous land and sea barriers.

If you mean whether or not they'll crossbreed, they most likely will. The Florida population was introduced probably relatively recently. Definitely not enough time for reproductive barriers to begin to develop.

 

[Dave]

I edited my last post.

 

[jayefbe]

I'm still confused as to what you mean. I believe gracilis is originally from CA, and have been introduced to many regions in N. America, Caribbean islands, and Africa. So to some extent, all gracilis are originally from CA. What differentiates the populations is not just coloration though, so black does not necessarily mean CA population. I believe size and venom potency (along with a predominance of black in CA) are big trait variations within the CA and Florida groups.

 

[tarzan2day]

Depending on if they actually bred, I think you might get some babies. I found normal looking gracilis, black ones with a little red on the chela, and black ones with dark red legs instead of the usual yellowish. I have a feeling the Floridas and possibly CA's might be interbreeding, if there are or were CA's living in the area where I find them.

I would like to actually see what you'd get to further confirm my thoughts.

I'll Post some pics hopefully in like 6 months...

 

[Dave]

I'll Post some pics hopefully in like 6 months...

Great !