Do tarantulas have issues with genetic diversity like some reptile species do (in the pet trade)?

[utahraptor9000]

I have too much time on my hands today because an ice storm is preventing me from going to work, so naturally my thoughts turned to tarantulas and I started thinking about genetic diversity within captive bred populations.

My assumption is that it would depend on the species of tarantula, and its popularity in the pet trade, but I was wondering if anyone here knew if there’s any big problems with inbreeding or a lack of genetic diversity because of the pet trade? I know that with some species of reptiles, especially captive bred crested geckos, the family tree is kind of more of a family pole due to a variety of factors related to the pet trade.

I’ve also read that the desire to create different ball python morphs has made the species pretty genetically, uh, “interesting”.

As far as I know (which admittedly isn’t a whole lot!), morphs aren’t really a “thing” for tarantulas, and I guess that the effects of inbreeding invertebrates might be harder to notice than reptiles, but I was wondering if there’s been any studies, anecdotal knowledge or observations, or pretty much any info on whether popular tarantula species have issues with genetic diversity or have displayed health issues that correlate with inbreeding.

 

[Rigor Mortis]

I don't know if there's enough documentation of tarantula breeding to really keep track of this honestly. I'll be interested to see someone else chime in though.

 

[viper69]

I have too much time on my hands today because an ice storm is preventing me from going to work, so naturally my thoughts turned to tarantulas and I started thinking about genetic diversity within captive bred populations.

My assumption is that it would depend on the species of tarantula, and its popularity in the pet trade, but I was wondering if anyone here knew if there’s any big problems with inbreeding or a lack of genetic diversity because of the pet trade? I know that with some species of reptiles, especially captive bred crested geckos, the family tree is kind of more of a family pole due to a variety of factors related to the pet trade.

I’ve also read that the desire to create different ball python morphs has made the species pretty genetically, uh, “interesting”.

As far as I know (which admittedly isn’t a whole lot!), morphs aren’t really a “thing” for tarantulas, and I guess that the effects of inbreeding invertebrates might be harder to notice than reptiles, but I was wondering if there’s been any studies, anecdotal knowledge or observations, or pretty much any info on whether popular tarantula species have issues with genetic diversity or have displayed health issues that correlate with inbreeding.

Inbreeding is not good, if it was good you’d be having sex with your parents and siblings.

H incei gold - is a morph- hatched out in captivity- unknown how. But it’s homozygous recessive by all counts which is cool.

ballpythons ended up with a neurological mutation it seems to me, believe it was the spider ball. Not good at all.

There’s nothing Im aware of, but it would a while, ie generations IMO for there to be a problem observed. Thought it didn’t take long for bps

 

[fcat]

We really need a "throwing up in my mouth" emoticon

 

[MariaLewisia]

What little anecdotal and scientific evidence there is of tarantula (as well as other invertebrates) inbreeding shows shortened lifespan/increased mortality/less fitness as the main consequence(s). Basically they look and act like normal but are not healthy on the inside. I'm sure there is a lot going on genetically, but thus far there's been no publications on the subject so we can only speculate on what and why and so on.

 

[utahraptor9000]

Inbreeding is not good, if it was good you’d be having sex with your parents and siblings.

H incei gold - is a morph- hatched out in captivity- unknown how. But it’s homozygous recessive by all counts which is cool.

ballpythons ended up with a neurological mutation it seems to me, believe it was the spider ball. Not good at all.

There’s nothing Im aware of, but it would a while, ie generations IMO for there to be a problem observed. Thought it didn’t take long for bps

Right, I feel like I need to clarify just in case that I am in no way advocating for inbreeding, haha. I just know that the negative consequences of doing so seem to be much more documented in other animals than tarantulas.

I did not know that about H incei gold! Thank you for letting me know, it's definitely an interesting bit of information. I just hope that it doesn't cause an unhealthy morph craze that seems to have plagued some reptile breeding communities... it's very sad to see people breed ball pythons with genetic neurological defects just because the morph looks cool :/.

It would be an interesting thing for someone to professionally study, especially going off of you mentioning that there hasn't been any problems observed yet. Someone might be able to catch problems as they develop and scientifically document it.

What little anecdotal and scientific evidence there is of tarantula (as well as other invertebrates) inbreeding shows shortened lifespan/increased mortality/less fitness as the main consequence(s). Basically they look and act like normal but are not healthy on the inside. I'm sure there is a lot going on genetically, but thus far there's been no publications on the subject so we can only speculate on what and why and so on.

Interesting! I suppose that makes sense, I'd imagine that you would have internal problems before they became noticeable as physical abnormalities. I wish there were publications on the matter, but at the same time I imagine that biologists have bigger fish to fry (study?) than inbreeding in captive tarantula populations lol.

We really need a "throwing up in my mouth" emoticon

I think the closest one would be this one, lol:

 

[viper69]

Right, I feel like I need to clarify just in case that I am in no way advocating for inbreeding, haha. I just know that the negative consequences of doing so seem to be much more documented in other animals than tarantulas.

I did not know that about H incei gold! Thank you for letting me know, it's definitely an interesting bit of information. I just hope that it doesn't cause an unhealthy morph craze that seems to have plagued some reptile breeding communities... it's very sad to see people breed ball pythons with genetic neurological defects just because the morph looks cool :/.

It would be an interesting thing for someone to professionally study, especially going off of you mentioning that there hasn't been any problems observed yet. Someone might be able to catch problems as they develop and scientifically document it.



Interesting! I suppose that makes sense, I'd imagine that you would have internal problems before they became noticeable as physical abnormalities. I wish there were publications on the matter, but at the same time I imagine that biologists have bigger fish to fry (study?) than inbreeding in captive tarantula populations lol.



I think the closest one would be this one, lol:

Yep w/the golds some group in Germany I believe was quite surprised actually. I saw the original web page and images of the saclings they posted, as well as the numbers of gold to normal. It was very interesting.

 

[fcat]

I think viper is right it's the spider balls, they present with problems as a result of the inbreeding to achieve color morphs, that is the result of inbreeding, that egg came before the chicken (and it's continued to profit off morphs). If they carry the spider gene/color morph, they carry the wobble. Pleiotropy? It's the same chromosome. They have problems feeding and can fail to thrive. I've also heard they are uncharacteristically mean and skittish but that's subjective....but I would put money on it being a result of their neurological condition, the deformed skull and inner ear.

 

[Dilbert Sundance]

This post is interesting I made other similar on tarantula chat about the same thing, but at the end i ended without any conclusion, No expert wants to get involved in the subject, its taboo, we can't sustain the blood lines with wild caught specimens, it's not realistic, I think we are breeding close related specimens most of the time, the wild cant supply without destroying it.

 

[angelarachnid]

There is no proof whatsoever about inbreeding problems in tarantulas.

Read the comments above and people have to refer to problems with non tarantulas mostly vertebrates therefore using animals so widely different from each other is not good for comparison. .

So lets split the vertebrates of and just have invertebrates.

Then split the arachnids of from the invertebrates,

lets just stick to spiders

Just theraphosids and then begin the debate (that was what the OP asked)

OK what has been published in peer reviewed journals on inbreeding in theraphosid spiders (is there a tumbleweed emoji?)

If the Mexican researchers are to be believed there can be multiple species within what we (currently) regard as a wide ranging single species which then makes the distribution very small in comparison, and smaller distribution = less genetic diversity.

A good example of limited distribution is Mascaraneus remotus from remote island very little chance of genetic diversity there.

In the hobby, one gravid Psalmopoeus pulcher is allegedly the source of all the specimens in the hobby, L. parahaybana all from 3 eggsacs, I have not heard of any inbreeding problems with these.

For years breeders have known that you get more successful breeding's with related specimens than unrelated specimens I found that with easy to breed species such as P reduncus. It is easier to breed related Poecilotheria sp with together than get a male from an unrelated eggsac.

Poecilothera (Pokes) require very special habitat, large holes in trees, and not every tree has a hole big enough for an adult female poke to live in, now consider all the things from ants upwards that could feed on a poke sling, they are not going to wander down a tree then up the next trying to find somewhere to live they are going to live with or close by the mother. Now then male pokes are not going to wander the jungle wide up and down trees risking life and limb trying to find an "unrelated female" and how the hell would he know if he had??, he is going to mate the nearest female probably his mother. Male pokes do not have tibial spurs being a social species why would he need them? but what if he does not have them because he gives himself to the female as her "big meal" before eggsac production? he mates with her then feeds her ensuring his genes are carried on.

Now then, Pokes dont have large eggsac why? if they had to wander the jungle they would have thousands like A. geniculata, but if the young do not have to go far as they are social then they dont have to be so numerous P. ornata has around 200 in an eggsac (JM Verdez pers. com, pers. obs) and they are the least social ... coincidence?

Ever since I entered the hobby in the 1970s this bull about genetic diversity in tarantulas has been pushed down peoples throats, and that spiders have to be imported all the time for genetic diversity ... with no proof.

The first incei golds came from a sibling mating (I had some of the slings from that sac) these gold M. balfouri are NOT M. balfouri X M. lambertoni they are from totally different islands thousands of km apart and widely different habitats like trying to breed A. seemanni with A. chalcodies.

R

 

[Dilbert Sundance]

There is no proof whatsoever about inbreeding problems in tarantulas.

Read the comments above and people have to refer to problems with non tarantulas mostly vertebrates therefore using animals so widely different from each other is not good for comparison. .

So lets split the vertebrates of and just have invertebrates.

Then split the arachnids of from the invertebrates,

lets just stick to spiders

Just theraphosids and then begin the debate (that was what the OP asked)

OK what has been published in peer reviewed journals on inbreeding in theraphosid spiders (is there a tumbleweed emoji?)

If the Mexican researchers are to be believed there can be multiple species within what we (currently) regard as a wide ranging single species which then makes the distribution very small in comparison, and smaller distribution = less genetic diversity.

A good example of limited distribution is Mascaraneus remotus from remote island very little chance of genetic diversity there.

In the hobby, one gravid Psalmopoeus pulcher is allegedly the source of all the specimens in the hobby, L. parahaybana all from 3 eggsacs, I have not heard of any inbreeding problems with these.

For years breeders have known that you get more successful breeding's with related specimens than unrelated specimens I found that with easy to breed species such as P reduncus. It is easier to breed related Poecilotheria sp with together than get a male from an unrelated eggsac.

Poecilothera (Pokes) require very special habitat, large holes in trees, and not every tree has a hole big enough for an adult female poke to live in, now consider all the things from ants upwards that could feed on a poke sling, they are not going to wander down a tree then up the next trying to find somewhere to live they are going to live with or close by the mother. Now then male pokes are not going to wander the jungle wide up and down trees risking life and limb trying to find an "unrelated female" and how the hell would he know if he had??, he is going to mate the nearest female probably his mother. Male pokes do not have tibial spurs being a social species why would he need them? but what if he does not have them because he gives himself to the female as her "big meal" before eggsac production? he mates with her then feeds her ensuring his genes are carried on.

Now then, Pokes dont have large eggsac why? if they had to wander the jungle they would have thousands like A. geniculata, but if the young do not have to go far as they are social then they dont have to be so numerous P. ornata has around 200 in an eggsac (JM Verdez pers. com, pers. obs) and they are the least social ... coincidence?

Ever since I entered the hobby in the 1970s this bull about genetic diversity in tarantulas has been pushed down peoples throats, and that spiders have to be imported all the time for genetic diversity ... with no proof.

The first incei golds came from a sibling mating (I had some of the slings from that sac) these gold M. balfouri are NOT M. balfouri X M. lambertoni they are from totally different islands thousands of km apart and widely different habitats like trying to breed A. seemanni with A. chalcodies.

R

A good answer with a lot of logic, for example in the Philippines on the island of Mindanao they say there are up to 16 different species of earth tigers (we have in the hobby 4, Mindanao Central (Surigago del sur) Mindanao Oriental (Davao Oriental) Mindanao Sur (South Cotabato Lowland) and Haribon), these are distributed in very small areas of territory, this happens with most species of tarantula even when they do not come from islands, there are tarantulas from Africa that are only located in a small area, if those tarantulas were further away from those areas there would not be lot of different species, for example in Ceratogyrus, pterinochilus..., but there would be a lot of crossbreeding and there would not be as much diversity of species as there are. Some insects, especially flying ones, migrate and have massive distributions, which tarantulas do not. So is not good to compare tarantulas with other invertebrates.

I have worked for more than 10 years with goats and sheep, when I worked with goats we had a foreman who directed the selection of replacement animals, I am going to give as an example a selection that he have been carrying out for more than 25 years, at the beginning the cattle are imperfect, they do not produce as much milk, males are brought from outside from the best farms and they begin to breed and select the replacement, once they begin to produce milk (for this they must become pregnant) all those that do not become pregnant go to the slaughterhouse, all the one with a hanging udder, slaughterhouse, unequal tits, slaughterhouse, a blind breast, slaughterhouse, less than 2 liters of milk a day in high production, slaughterhouse, then after this raw selection when you have most of the good cattle you are allowed to leave your own males generally, a high percentage of the cattle used to be killed each month. What I mean by this is that foreman of tarantulas would be the nature if we assuming inbreeding to be a defect.

I investigated a little on web and i finded this :
INBREEDING PROGRAMMES
Although selection and crossbreeding are the breeding programmes that are usually considered when plans are made to improve a population genetically, inbreeding is a third option that can be used to produce good results. Inbreeding is generally shunned because it is a two-edged sword that can mortally wound a population. However, when used properly, inbreeding can be an effective and efficient breeding programme. In general, inbreeding programmes are used when you have superior animals. If you inbreed average animals, you produce average animals. But if you inbreed superior animals, you can create outstanding animals.

Well, if we assume then that some tarantulas in nature do a selective "inbreeding" and the supposed "foreman" is the hostility of their enviroment to create a pure genetic, and they were doing this during hundreds maybe thousands of years we assume the value of the eggsac should be good?? Or than the hobby tarantulas are going to become less capable to survive out of the captivitie and are less savage??.
PD. During my work experience I saw too farms that lost most of their animals or the whole animals from only one sickness.

 

[Arachnophoric]

ballpythons ended up with a neurological mutation it seems to me, believe it was the spider ball. Not good at all.

There’s nothing Im aware of, but it would a while, ie generations IMO for there to be a problem observed. Thought it didn’t take long for bps

As someone who is actively in the ball python circuit, I just want to say - while inbreeding is definitely not desirable overall and results in issues down the line, the problem with spider ball pythons is completely unrelated to inbreeding and more about how the gene develops in the egg. It is an incomplete dominant morph that does not rely on breeding back to related animals to propogate quickly, and in fact the super form is lethal which highly discourages people breeding spider morph to spider morph. There is no noticable link to the degree in which spider ball pythons develop their neuro issues - a low wobble animal can have high wobble offspring, and vice versa, as well as the intensity varying as the animal ages and to what degree the animal is stressed. There are big name breeders who say they're trying to "breed it out" of the morph, but it's simply not possible as the issue is directly related to the morph and not whether they're inbred, outcrossed, etc.

I also feel vertebrates should not really be compared to inverts when it comes to this issue, but as far as I know there's been no known ramifications in invertebrates. That being said, that should not stop you from looking for unrelated (at least immediate) animals to breed. I'd say that's best regardless of the species in question.

 

[viper69]

As someone who is actively in the ball python circuit, I just want to say - while inbreeding is definitely not desirable overall and results in issues down the line, the problem with spider ball pythons is completely unrelated to inbreeding and more about how the gene develops in the egg. It is an incomplete dominant morph that does not rely on breeding back to related animals to propogate quickly, and in fact the super form is lethal which highly discourages people breeding spider morph to spider morph. There is no noticable link to the degree in which spider ball pythons develop their neuro issues - a low wobble animal can have high wobble offspring, and vice versa, as well as the intensity varying as the animal ages and to what degree the animal is stressed. There are big name breeders who say they're trying to "breed it out" of the morph, but it's simply not possible as the issue is directly related to the morph and not whether they're inbred, outcrossed, etc.

I also feel vertebrates should not really be compared to inverts when it comes to this issue, but as far as I know there's been no known ramifications in invertebrates. That being said, that should not stop you from looking for unrelated (at least immediate) animals to breed. I'd say that's best regardless of the species in question.

Ah the super morph, had forgotten the results of that- thanks

I remember years ago reading about breeding out efforts and couldn’t figure how they came to that for the reason you wrote, which I thought most knew.

I can’t imagine genetic diversity isn’t important for all life on the planet aside from organisms which clone.

Except some organisms that clone may wind up with a problem from a pathogen or climate etc, and be wiped out.

 

[Dilbert Sundance]

Ah the super morph, had forgotten the results of that- thanks

I remember years ago reading about breeding out efforts and couldn’t figure how they came to that for the reason you wrote, which I thought most knew.

I can’t imagine genetic diversity isn’t important for all life on the planet aside from organisms which clone.

Only think I could imagine to look for outbreed in a pure selected genetic is that all the individuals are bound to important imperfections (and you maybe need to crossbreed), pure races are more prone to extinct, specially when you didn't control all the characteristics of the individuals and you have a small population of them, on nature you have lot of controlers for tarantulas(they have hundreds of individuals per eggsac) if we suppose they have small genetic pools and live in small areas, the individuals should reach maturity, survive and beeing able to breed, on captivitie we dont manage that, we manage characteristics of pet that allow them to live in a cage, they are prone to extinct too.
At least on catle genetic diversity isn't important, we have pure races with even same colors, we fight sickness and do a lot of controls and vaccines, now less productive species are in risk of extinct becouse people only want to keep productive ones.

 

[dragonfire1577]

While inbreeding may cause issues in some species, it also seems to go on pretty safely in many arthropods. The lab I work in has cockroach colonies that were started with less than a dozen individuals that have persisted well over 40 years, and we don't typically see any higher control mortality in these than field collected strains. Even rodents can be safely inbred for quite a few generations before maybe* seeing issues - and when health issues do pop up it isn't necessarily that difficult to select against them. I would prioritize getting decent sized groups of a species from one collection locale, and breeding animals only from that same area with the same morphotype personally. That way an attempt at promoting diversity is made without crossing spiders that could be different yet visually indistinguishable species.

 

[Kada]

While inbreeding may cause issues in some species, it also seems to go on pretty safely in many arthropods. The lab I work in has cockroach colonies that were started with less than a dozen individuals that have persisted well over 40 years, and we don't typically see any higher control mortality in these than field collected strains. Even rodents can be safely inbred for quite a few generations before maybe* seeing issues - and when health issues do pop up it isn't necessarily that difficult to select against them. I would prioritize getting decent sized groups of a species from one collection locale, and breeding animals only from that same area with the same morphotype personally. That way an attempt at promoting diversity is made without crossing spiders that could be different yet visually indistinguishable species.

Reminds of the lab mouse issue and how they somehow developed differently which could then possibly skew testing results. Can't remember where I read this. I forgot if it was due to constant environmental factors and evolvìdiffere tly than wilf populations, or genetic diversity.

 

[444 critters]

Well I don't really see how inbreeding is even possible with Ts, considering the males sexually mature way faster then females. And most likely will be dead before a female is mature enough to mate with a sibling.. I'm not a genius and don't know much in the sexual maturity rates for every species, but I'm pretty sure I'm close to right atleast. Haha. As far as birth defects, I would be interested in a true answer aswell, as I have seen, and bred, Colonies of roaches, and they are deffinantly related.. but we do already got to worry about the molt making it handicapped, I'd hate to start seeing eggsacks filled with a bunch a science experiments. Haha

I would also like to add to the reptile morph portion, getting a morph out of a reptile doesn't have to be dangerous. I breed beardies, and I deal with morphs aswell, the key to getting the visual you want and a healthy animal, is HET to HET pairing. Any visual to visual seems to have the handicap. For instance, a leatherback is a reduced scale on a dragon, almost a micro scale, if you breed 2 leather backs, you get a silky. Which is pretty much scaleless... although beautiful and vibrant, their health is poor, lifespan is short, and care is 10x more harder to keep a healthy dragon. But if you breed a normal with a leatherback. You get normal, and leather back babies, all healthy. Het pairing is the responsible way to go.

 

[Dilbert Sundance]

Well I don't really see how inbreeding is even possible with Ts, considering the males sexually mature way faster then females. And most likely will be dead before a female is mature enough to mate with a sibling.. I'm not a genius and don't know much in the sexual maturity rates for every species, but I'm pretty sure I'm close to right atleast. Haha. As far as birth defects, I would be interested in a true answer aswell, as I have seen, and bred, Colonies of roaches, and they are deffinantly related.. but we do already got to worry about the molt making it handicapped, I'd hate to start seeing eggsacks filled with a bunch a science experiments. Haha

I would also like to add to the reptile morph portion, getting a morph out of a reptile doesn't have to be dangerous. I breed beardies, and I deal with morphs aswell, the key to getting the visual you want and a healthy animal, is HET to HET pairing. Any visual to visual seems to have the handicap. For instance, a leatherback is a reduced scale on a dragon, almost a micro scale, if you breed 2 leather backs, you get a silky. Which is pretty much scaleless... although beautiful and vibrant, their health is poor, lifespan is short, and care is 10x more harder to keep a healthy dragon. But if you breed a normal with a leatherback. You get normal, and leather back babies, all healthy. Het pairing is the responsible way to go.

How inbreeding is possible in nature? Mother or aunts with sons or nephews.

 

[444 critters]

How inbreeding is possible in nature? Mother or aunts with sons or nephews.

In the wild, this is almost impossible. In captivity, I suppose it's possible. I didn't really think about a aunt/mom, I was more so thinking of a sister.

 

[Dilbert Sundance]

In the wild, this is almost impossible. In captivity, I suppose it's possible. I didn't really think about a aunt/mom, I was more so thinking of a sister.

It's not impossible at all, if the tarantula distribute in small area, but I suppose everything we can say about that is speculation till we start getting some side effects. Some people say that hobby tarantulas are less bigger than wild ones specially those who where long time captive breed.