CYST Severity??

[vickywild]

Not trying to be nasty, but do you own a tarantula with no health problems? Perhaps its time to start looking at your set ups/the heat in your house?

I'm worried for the wee craters!

 

[esotericman]

What comes up over and over, and all of the threads here, and other the plethora of other sites have not been reviewed was the one thing Anastasia did, she stopped feeding or slowed it way down. This allows the damaged "machinery" of the molting process to work more slowly, which often leads to molting out of the problem or lessening it. The cause of these problems is known, it's damage during the molt cycle, which could be from rapid growth, or physical injury (falling, being shipped). Either way, you have layers of the exoskeleton damaged, and the system must patch those weak points. Feeding overly much just adds fat to the animal which speeds up the molting process. The anti-fungals are useless as many of these "cysts" appear to have surface fungus on them, which is the thin exoskeleton becoming sclerified in spots. These spots look like fungus, but are not. Save yourself and the animal a lot of stress, and skill that step.

It has not been conclusively demonstrated that tarantulas can shrink between molts, but it is seen in many arthropods. Regardless, we need to get out of the mind set that we need to feed these animals to help them heal.

To the OP, slow down or stop the feeding. Offer a varied diet of many insects when you do feed, and keep the water available and the lower substrate damp. Maybe, if given enough time to correct the internal problems, you might see a reduced injury over the next molt. I'd continue this care for a few years, and do not attempt to breed this animal.

 

[Earth Tiger]

esotericman thank you for shedding light on this topic. Could you also provide some references for your points (e.g. books or researchers citations)? Is it your own observation and experience? Don't get me wrong I am not here to challenge you but apparently the cyst problems have been discussed here extensively and nobody including many experienced breeders got any answer. The affected Ts in almost all similar threads faced the same fate and no one could offer any help to save them. Please kindly provide more information as your explanations can save lots of Ts with similar problems in the future and I suggest the moderator to put a sticky post here.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

What comes up over and over, and all of the threads here, and other the plethora of other sites have not been reviewed was the one thing Anastasia did, she stopped feeding or slowed it way down. This allows the damaged "machinery" of the molting process to work more slowly, which often leads to molting out of the problem or lessening it. The cause of these problems is known, it's damage during the molt cycle, which could be from rapid growth, or physical injury (falling, being shipped). Either way, you have layers of the exoskeleton damaged, and the system must patch those weak points. Feeding overly much just adds fat to the animal which speeds up the molting process. The anti-fungals are useless as many of these "cysts" appear to have surface fungus on them, which is the thin exoskeleton becoming sclerified in spots. These spots look like fungus, but are not. Save yourself and the animal a lot of stress, and skill that step.

It has not been conclusively demonstrated that tarantulas can shrink between molts, but it is seen in many arthropods. Regardless, we need to get out of the mind set that we need to feed these animals to help them heal.

To the OP, slow down or stop the feeding. Offer a varied diet of many insects when you do feed, and keep the water available and the lower substrate damp. Maybe, if given enough time to correct the internal problems, you might see a reduced injury over the next molt. I'd continue this care for a few years, and do not attempt to breed this animal.

Great post
care to talk more about how I can save my spider?? that would be thanked !

 

[19tarantula91]

Great post
care to talk more about how I can save my spider?? that would be thanked !

We have tried and you don't care nor take our advice.

 

[LucasNorth]

Its a shame that there isn't more info, if the cyst is indeed liquid filled perhaps its molting fluid?

 

[ijmccollum]

WoW esotericman, that was quite the reply! I too, would like some more info on how you conclude "known reason" and sclerification as result of exoskeletal damage. It would be great to have better understanding and info available to those in the hobby.

 

[Shell]

WoW esotericman, that was quite the reply! I too, would like some more info on how you conclude "known reason" and sclerification as result of exoskeletal damage.

Agreed, it would be very interesting to hear more about this.

 

[Kungfujoe]

Thanks for your informative post, I too will watch for more information concerning this problem. Also does anyone think it could be internal parasites from eating prey in the wild. I learned from a college bio class that a form of tape worm can enter the body from eating snails or eating the grass a snail pooped on. The normal host, if my memory serves right are raccoons but sometimes find their way in the human body by digestion. It also stated that some of these can enter the brain insted of the intended lungs and cause a cyst in the brain. I think there was also a video on this on a show called, "Eaten Alive" or was it "Bein Eaten Alive." Just a something I thought about while reading everyones input on the matter.

 

[Comatose]

Me too; excellent post!

 

[Hornets inverts]

Thanks for your informative post, I too will watch for more information concerning this problem. Also does anyone think it could be internal parasites from eating prey in the wild. I learned from a college bio class that a form of tape worm can enter the body from eating snails or eating the grass a snail pooped on. The normal host, if my memory serves right are raccoons but sometimes find their way in the human body by digestion. It also stated that some of these can enter the brain insted of the intended lungs and cause a cyst in the brain. I think there was also a video on this on a show called, "Eaten Alive" or was it "Bein Eaten Alive." Just a something I thought about while reading everyones input on the matter.

Rat lung worm is what your reffering to, nasty things,had it once but luckily only fairly minor

 

[Earth Tiger]

Thanks for your informative post, I too will watch for more information concerning this problem. Also does anyone think it could be internal parasites from eating prey in the wild. I learned from a college bio class that a form of tape worm can enter the body from eating snails or eating the grass a snail pooped on. The normal host, if my memory serves right are raccoons but sometimes find their way in the human body by digestion. It also stated that some of these can enter the brain insted of the intended lungs and cause a cyst in the brain. I think there was also a video on this on a show called, "Eaten Alive" or was it "Bein Eaten Alive." Just a something I thought about while reading everyones input on the matter.

That parasite uses snails as a secondary hosts to infect birds which are their primary hosts. Birds eat snails, but birds don't eat tarantulas and there is no reason for that parasite to evolve to infect Ts. Ts have their own parasites though.

 

[esotericman]

OK. As to the scleritization, review any macro-photos of any species of Theraphosa which has flicked all of it's setea off, they often have dark spots. It does not spread, and does not change morphology when "treated", thus it must be part of the exoskeleton. To test this, thin sections in paraffin or plastic must be made. I have meant to give it a go, but time is always a limiting factor. I absolutely LOVE that someone challenges what I say, and even asked for peer reviewed literature. Sadly, even within our hobby this is such a minor issue, no one will do anything more than citizen science on the topic.


As for the other questions, please hit these two threads:

http://atshq.org/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19745
http://atshq.org/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24782

http://thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?4537-P-metallica-parasite-help

The BTS thread has an outstanding post:
http://thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?4537-P-metallica-parasite-help&p=34532#post34532

Also, these threads will or should quell any discussions on possible parasites. It's well and good to try and link what we know outside the hobby to the hobby, but there are very few parasites of tarantulas. A few insects, a few nematode species... that's about it.

As the web of information spreads, I can not urge you strongly enough to NOT try to lance or drain the abscess/cyst/wound. You'll see Ryan (talkenlate) did give it a go, but that was of little use to the animal, unless I missed a post. I suspect someone will correct me if so. Until then I have never read of any animal making it past the next molt after such a trauma. Remember this is not only the part of the animal which keeps everything in and wet, but also is the structural components.

It's pretty simple what's causing these problems, overfeeding, shipping, or falling. We can not point at species, as it occurs in many, I've seen this in Brachypelma, Avicularia, Theraphosa, and Poecilotheria.

 

[ijmccollum]

Interesting links but In the P.met....? Mybe I didn't read the thread right but was it determined to be due to injury or parasite? Was it ever resolved?

So your take on these "cycts" are trauma that occurs to the endocutile which results in mesocuticle protrusion and presents on the exocuticle? I would be willing to say that it is due to cuticle damage but I don't know for sure. I hope never to have the misfortune to experience this.

xhexdex's certainly looked herniated.

And you are right there is not alot peer reviewed papers out there -- I think I pulled up all of 33 articles in PubMed.

Oh! And are you talking histology with the paraffin?

 

[Anastasia]

What comes up over and over, and all of the threads here, and other the plethora of other sites have not been reviewed was the one thing Anastasia did, she stopped feeding or slowed it way down. This allows the damaged "machinery" of the molting process to work more slowly, which often leads to molting out of the problem or lessening it. The cause of these problems is known, it's damage during the molt cycle, which could be from rapid growth, or physical injury (falling, being shipped). Either way, you have layers of the exoskeleton damaged, and the system must patch those weak points. Feeding overly much just adds fat to the animal which speeds up the molting process. The anti-fungals are useless as many of these "cysts" appear to have surface fungus on them, which is the thin exoskeleton becoming sclerified in spots. These spots look like fungus, but are not. Save yourself and the animal a lot of stress, and skill that step.

It has not been conclusively demonstrated that tarantulas can shrink between molts, but it is seen in many arthropods. Regardless, we need to get out of the mind set that we need to feed these animals to help them heal.

To the OP, slow down or stop the feeding. Offer a varied diet of many insects when you do feed, and keep the water available and the lower substrate damp. Maybe, if given enough time to correct the internal problems, you might see a reduced injury over the next molt. I'd continue this care for a few years, and do not attempt to breed this animal.

Christian ,

I absolutely agree with you on greatest benefit of slowing down animals allowing repair damaged exo. I also witnessed that some don't gain growth and actually shrink.
But Am not so sure iodine is totally useless, I can not explain but there is have to be something to it, because when I worked with some animals with similar problems, very often those problem areas get infected and I ended up as an open wound that was allot worse to deal with.
And that is just my experience.

Right now Am working with something different, it is a fungal infection of abdomen that end up blistering (small blisters very similar to protrusion on T stirmi but smaller), Am pretty positive they developed in result of this fungal infection . I will probably start new tread and post pictures and progress.

 

[Kungfujoe]

Whoa that is crazy, so that P. rufi survived but it left a scar. that p. Metallica is also has a lot more blue then my P. Metallica sling that's 2 inches ><. I wonder if he will do the surjury on his Metallica. Anyways gl on the problem with your T Anastasia.

 

[Comatose]

Christian ,

I absolutely agree with you on greatest benefit of slowing down animals allowing repair damaged exo. I also witnessed that some don't gain growth and actually shrink.
But Am not so sure iodine is totally useless, I can not explain but there is have to be something to it, because when I worked with some animals with similar problems, very often those problem areas get infected and I ended up as an open wound that was allot worse to deal with.
And that is just my experience.

Right now Am working with something different, it is a fungal infection of abdomen that end up blistering (small blisters very similar to protrusion on T stirmi but smaller), Am pretty positive they developed in result of this fungal infection . I will probably start new tread and post pictures and progress.

Have you considered using a drying agent? Obviously, it's a completely different issue, but in humans there are acne like treatments to absorb the fluid inside small cysts. Perhaps this could work too? Just a thought.

I agree with you on the iodine, and I look forward to seeing your new thread.

 

[esotericman]

Right now Am working with something different, it is a fungal infection of abdomen that end up blistering (small blisters very similar to protrusion on T stirmi but smaller), Am pretty positive they developed in result of this fungal infection . I will probably start new tread and post pictures and progress.

Please do! If you've had greater success with iodine (what percentage?), then you're not hurting anything by using it. My concern was a pile of internet "information" leading to more stress on the animal, or wasted money and resources.

---------- Post added 12-22-2011 at 12:46 PM ----------

Have you considered using a drying agent? Obviously, it's a completely different issue, but in humans there are acne like treatments to absorb the fluid inside small cysts. Perhaps this could work too? Just a thought.

I agree with you on the iodine, and I look forward to seeing your new thread.

Drawing that amount of fluid through a water tight exoskeleton would take some serious dessication, and probably end up doing far more harm than good.

 

[Comatose]

Drawing that amount of fluid through a water tight exoskeleton would take some serious dessication, and probably end up doing far more harm than good.

This is a good point... it would have to be done in conjunction with one of the sugical procedures discussed earlier in the thread and wouldn't be preferable to a non surgical solution.

 

[Earth Tiger]

Iodine?

Folks, may I know the iodine you folks keep talking about is the iodine solution not some iodide salts dissolved in water as free ions? If it's iodine solution what percentage?