Concerned about the future of our hobby!

[BelfastScorpion]

Hi everyone,

I am very concerned about the future of our hobby.

I don’t keep reptiles but I keep scorpions.

I have been aware of this threat (please see link below) for some time now but hadn’t heard anything for a while. So I had kind of forgotten about it. However it appears that this is still very much an issue.

Can anyone shed anymore light on this? Reptiles and amphibians are mentioned a lot but I assume it would also include scorpions and other arachnids.

Is this likely to be an all out ban? Or just some sort of amendment to something like the DWA act?

Very worried about this!

http://www.petbusinessworld.co.uk/news/feed/-escalating-risks--to-exotics-trade

 

[snippy]

I can only speak for Germany, but here it is common practice for some years now (it started in the 90s I believe) that states legislate against the keeping of potentially dangerous animals - which includes scorpions. Some have lists that include all the genera not to keep (in case of scorpions those are the common ones that include at least one medium venomous species) and some have banned venomous animals all together. There are I believe only 3 states left that do not have such legislation.
The problem I have with it is simply, that there seldom are ways for a serious mind to get a exception approved. In some cases it is not possible at all, in others you will have to jump through some hoops.
I have no problem with the idea of prohibiting action crazed kids to have venomous animals, not at all. But such a hobby should be open to any serious keeper that can proof his/her skill and knowledge still.

But guess what, the hobby here is as strong as ever...

Regards
Finn

 

[Deathmetal]

It should be the same as licensing drivers. The cities could make money off the tests and licensing and serious keepers would keep their specimens.

 

[Olsin]

Worrying is only using your imagination to create something you don't want to happen .. A ban wouldn't stop serious keepers no more than the speed limit stops people from driving to fast.....and some kind of control would benefit especially Emps and Hets that are brought wholesale and constantly draw the short straw and end up suffering.
This forum and others plus youtube, show only to clearly that there are way to many people out there that keep scorpions et al for all the wrong reasons and don't even try to imitate their natural lifestyle.....For scorpions you could maybe mention, tong feeding, handling to prove the keepers own bravado, overfeeding to satisfy their own questionable motives, ambiguous feelings with regards to stressing scorps as well as many other less than pure reasons for owning. Many of these things only emphasizes the "cool toy" status scorpions and many others animals are in.
If some kind of legislature could be introduced to radically thin out in this group of people then i would see it as overwhelmingly positive....

 

[BelfastScorpion]

Worrying is only using your imagination to create something you don't want to happen .. A ban wouldn't stop serious keepers no more than the speed limit stops people from driving to fast.....and some kind of control would benefit especially Emps and Hets that are brought wholesale and constantly draw the short straw and end up suffering.
This forum and others plus youtube, show only to clearly that there are way to many people out there that keep scorpions et al for all the wrong reasons and don't even try to imitate their natural lifestyle.....For scorpions you could maybe mention, tong feeding, handling to prove the keepers own bravado, overfeeding to satisfy their own questionable motives, ambiguous feelings with regards to stressing scorps as well as many other less than pure reasons for owning. Many of these things only emphasizes the "cool toy" status scorpions and many others animals are in.
If some kind of legislature could be introduced to radically thin out in this group of people then i would see it as overwhelmingly positive....

I would agree with this. There are far too many people keeping scorps for all the wrong reasons. My concern is if they had a complete ban on keeping exotic pets. This would mean that it would not be legal for anyone to have them. Surely that is unfair for people like you and I who own scorpions for all the right reasons.

 

[pnshmntMMA]

Government bans only keep the banned item(s) out of the hands if law abiding citizens. Bans are stupid in almost every capacity. It's like the gun control issue. When you outlaw guns, only the outlaws have guns. As a cop, I see this everyday. Bans only stop good people from responsible use. For detailed data on gun ownership/crime rates the FBI.gov website has a plethora of up to date info. So responsible scorpion enthusiasts will be penalized is my point. But the people who don't give a crap will still break the law and do what the want. It's like the old saying. "Tell me more about how criminals follow the law". As keepers of invertebrates you guys need to start letter writing and forming groups. It's the only way to stop the .gov regulation of every poop and pee you take. Plus, this administration is fond of banning things that are "scary". Good luck guys.

 

[Olsin]

Government bans only keep the banned item(s) out of the hands if law abiding citizens.

Only if the law makes sense ... Your example with guns is also lopsided .. sure, many idiots own guns yet that's not their fault..A system that allows basically anyone to buy automatic assault rifles plus ammo can only end up going pear shaped...also, there's loads of sensible people that buy guns for personal protection who never use them in irresponsible ways...You just don't hear about them!

Stating a carpet statement like "bans are stupid" is also immature and shows a biased outlook...Many bans are put in place to save lives or minimize suffering although i will agree that some bans are reactionary and only serve to push the banned goods out onto the black market...Your prohibition in the early 1900's is an excellent example of that...Marijuana is another example..

A ban that stopped animals from being abused would be a good thing and would, as i stated earlier, stop the massive suffering of Hets and Emps .. If people decided to ignore the ban then that would be up to them and their conscience.

Surely that is unfair for people like you and I who own scorpions for all the right reasons.

Sure it would be if it panned out that way but who's saying it will!.....More likely some kind of license would be introduced allowing serious keepers to carry on...If a full ban came out of it....it would be up to you if you chose to follow it or not.....and until it's decided one way or another (if it ever is decided!) why worry about it? ... If one day they are banned in your country all you'll have to do is keep quiet about the scorps in your basement...and as a serious owner who doesn't keep scorps to show them off to friends that shouldn't be a problem

 

[jusmebabe]

Bad idea. Soon every state would be like California. Making silly laws that only the law abiding follow.
Cali has stripped my gun rights down to the bone. Whens the last time you've seen a criminal not rob a store because a sign in the window says firearms prohibited?
Criminals conceal carry everyday. Think they stopped when the idiots in Sacramento says you need a permit?
More common sense and less laws..

 

[MarkmD]

Very interesting read of all posts and OP link. I don't think theyr will be any major banned T's or scorps, for one the government wouldn't have approved the one's already in the trade deemed mild venom or cities protected, even pokies and birdeaters are approved, if there will be a ban on T's/scorps it will be new additions not yet approved by any governing body's by EU and US or elce where on the globe, our trade is booming more each day between newbies and fellow hobbyists as our selves, far to much money for it to end and to many people involved it's bigger than most believe.

 

[vespers]

Surely that is unfair for people like you and I who own scorpions for all the right reasons.

Just curious...what exactly are these "right reasons"?

 

[BelfastScorpion]

Just curious...what exactly are these "right reasons"?

Well for example I don't keep scorpions to show off or to make me look big in front of my friends. I keep scorpions because they are my favorite animal. I a m fascinated by them and I make sure they are looked after correctly. I do my homework on each species before I buy them to make sure conditions and setup in the tank are correct. The health and happiness of my scorpions are top priority in my hobby.

 

[jusmebabe]

Only if the law makes sense ... Your example with guns is also lopsided .. sure, many idiots own guns yet that's not their fault..A system that allows basically anyone to buy automatic assault rifles plus ammo can only end up going pear shaped...also, there's loads of sensible people that buy guns for personal protection who never use them in irresponsible ways...You just don't hear about them!

Considering the hoops you have to go thru to own a weapon in Europe (Switzerland excluded) your not qualified to judge our laws.
They make laws here and keep expanding them. Certain cities like San Fransisco you can't own ball pythons. Yes the deadly ball python. You have to break the law if you live in certain cities their. Then they ad amendments and anything over a certain size is illegal.
They made it illegal to unloaded onpen carry and then the same thing with open carry of long guns. Funny how Ca. crime rate is in the top 5 across the country yet places like Arizona allows it's citizens to conceal carry with or without a permit. Now why is it that thier crime rate is lower?? Wierd how that works.
Therefore his gun analogy isn't lopsided.

 

[Olsin]

Considering the hoops you have to go thru to own a weapon in Europe (Switzerland excluded) your not qualified to judge our laws.

Don't make the mistake of thinking i've never been to the states or worked with Americans...sure i don't live there now or follow your laws and restrictions but i've spoken with plenty of people that do and have...and the analogy is not lopsided as i was referring to this statement.

It's like the gun control issue. When you outlaw guns, only the outlaws have guns.

That statement is inherently incorrect.....Besides, who passed the law that said you have to be a national to have an opinion.

Still, I'm not interested in how many people own guns in the US or the demographics of responsible/irresponsible usage. This thread is about scorpions potentially being banned, so lets keep it on track.

 

[2nscorpx]

Funny how Ca. crime rate is in the top 5 across the country yet places like Arizona allows it's citizens to conceal carry with or without a permit. Now why is it that thier crime rate is lower?? Wierd how that works.
Therefore his gun analogy isn't lopsided.

That doesn't mean the gun analogy, the specific sentence he sourced, is not incoherent. With your statement, there could be other reasons why the crime rate is lower in Arizona, but I see your point. I think there needs to be more evidence that's not biased to make such restrictions and whatever else (and that's not very specific), and sometimes it seems like things are made into a big deal just to make them into a big deal. And I threw the thread off again, so, like Brian said, let's get back to the scorpions.

 

[vespers]

Well for example I don't keep scorpions to show off or to make me look big in front of my friends. I keep scorpions because they are my favorite animal. I a m fascinated by them and I make sure they are looked after correctly. I do my homework on each species before I buy them to make sure conditions and setup in the tank are correct. The health and happiness of my scorpions are top priority in my hobby.

I can certainly see your point of view, but at the same time:
"They are my favorite animal and I've read alot about them, so I deserve to keep them in a box in my home while others do not" is how that sounds then. A fairly weak "right reason" perhaps, depending on how you look at it. I can find myself fascinated by a rhinoceros...doesn't mean I should attempt to keep one captive. To be quite honest, I haven't even met anyone who keeps scorpions to look "big in front of their friends"...in fact, why would that even make someone look big in front of their friends? They would likely be much more inclined to view you as a freak of some sort. If one wanted to show off, there are certainly much better ways to do it.

And what exactly are the correct set up and condions for a scorpion tank? Is a tank even the best enclosure to use? Even among the hobbyists here, there is often much debate over various aspects of what constitutes proper care. Cage size, heat/no heat, red bulbs/other bulbs, this and that substrate, maintaining or eliminating humidity, and so on. (Though even a simple hamster requires more care and attention than a scorpion, but I digress...)

Sure, you have your young and inexperienced keepers that picked up an emperor for the first time or what have you. A few of them even think they are "experts" already, giving out regurgitated advice despite clearly being newbies (one only needs to look at the scorpion forum here...)
But then again, we were all beginners at one point in time....and for better or worse, we all play a role in this hobby to some degree.

I'm not trying to argue, just simply taking a step back and providing some food for thought when reading/discussing. Sometimes you see posts where arachnid enthusiasts have been hobbyists long enough that they seem to forget how to look at things from the "outside". Sometimes a deep breath and a little bit of Devil's Advocate are good for the mind.

 

[Olsin]

To be quite honest, I haven't even met anyone who keeps scorpions to look "big in front of their friends"...in fact, why would that even make someone look big in front of their friends? They would likely be much more inclined to view you as a freak of some sort. If one wanted to show off, there are certainly much better ways to do it.

You underestimate humans my friend...Just because you haven't seen this kind of behaviour doesn't mean it doesn't happen...Just surf around YouTube and you'll get all the examples of stunted psychology you could wish for.
On top of that, this forum as well as others are full of examples of less than pure motives for keeping scorpions (you just to need to be able to read between the lines) along with plenty of examples of people not even bothering to replicate natural living conditions and lifestyles....For example, right now on another forum we can read of someone telling the world how he's keeping 3 different species of scorpion together and even brags that they are trying to mate and he's hoping hybrids come out of it and at the last look was even being praised by another forum user! ......These examples of (mostly) youngsters who treat the whole hobby as some kind of playground with scorpions suffering at their hands are legion.......Reading between the lines through the last 10 or 15 posts on this forum also shows that some people have a very cavalier attitude to the hobby..If people can treat one animal as nothing more than a waste of space while they venerate another animal then it's obvious that these people have it in them to be just as callous about the venerated animal if the whim takes them.

And newbies regurgitating something they read as if they are the creators of the information is something that always happens and always will....A basic understanding of human psychology gives you the reason for this and has it's roots in peer acceptance and plain old "talking themselves up" .. Sure we were all beginners but some beginners are more prone to this false behaviour than others....On top of that you have the forum psychology....Some people are not interested in the quality of their posts just the quantity..A high post count is their goal.....Just look through this forum at the amount of new accounts created within the last 6 months or so that already have hundreds of posts under their names..

Yes, we all contribute something but some contributions are simply drivel without much intelligence behind it.......some of these people may go on to be legitimate experts or at the very least quite knowledgeable but the majority will fade away with time and one is left wondering what they did with their scorpions, how they got rid of them, what other animal is now getting less than optimal care at their hands.

A license or permit would cut a large proportion of these people away to the benefit of many many scorpions and as i said earlier, if such a thing happened i would see it as overwhelmingly positive...Owning any animal calls for commitment..A commitment to give that animal the best care you can based on the animals requirements..A commitment to look after that animal for the whole of it's natural life and a commitment to respect that animal.....Many start out on the road of commitment but few last the course.....Permits or licensing could maybe cut drastically down on the "this is my new cool thing until i get bored with it" group and with that in mind it would wholeheartedly get my vote.

 

[ShredderEmp]

A license or permit would cut a large proportion of these people away to the benefit of many many scorpions and as i said earlier, if such a thing happened i would see it as overwhelmingly positive...Owning any animal calls for commitment..A commitment to give that animal the best care you can based on the animals requirements..A commitment to look after that animal for the whole of it's natural life and a commitment to respect that animal.....Many start out on the road of commitment but few last the course.....Permits or licensing could maybe cut drastically down on the "this is my new cool thing until i get bored with it" group and with that in mind it would wholeheartedly get my vote.

I agree with that last part.

 

[BelfastScorpion]

I can certainly see your point of view, but at the same time:
"They are my favorite animal and I've read alot about them, so I deserve to keep them in a box in my home while others do not" is how that sounds then. A fairly weak "right reason" perhaps, depending on how you look at it.

You know what I meant by what I said. I have kept scorpions for over 10 years now. As long as I am looking after them properly is that not the main thing? At the end of the day dogs are mistreated all the time. However the animal welfare people aren't looking for a ban on all dog ownership just because of a few mindless idiots. So why should all exotic pet keepers be targeted. This is just one of the issues, the main one of course is the whole native species thing.

You live in a country where scorpions live in the wild. I live in Northern Ireland in the UK and we have no scorpions in the wild here. If there was a blanket ban I couldn't just go outside and flip over a few rocks to get more. They simply would not be available if importation was illegal. Thats why I'm so concerned. By the way if the ban was to go ahead it would also include importation of captive bred animals too.

 

[Olsin]

This is just one of the issues, the main one of course is the whole native species thing.

This argument only works if the stated animal can survive in the new country and as far as i can remember N.I has some tough weather through the winter....No escaped scorps could survive that, which makes that an empty argument.

They simply would not be available if importation was illegal. Thats why I'm so concerned.

Luckily though there's plenty of keepers that sell stock and at the end of the day thats the best way to go....You can get all the scorps your heart desires through the many German dealers...No need to check out pet shops.

Personally though i think you're worrying to much...These kinds of discussions have been going on for years and nothing has happened about it...Enjoy your scorpions and look after them and let the outside world look after itself...That link you referred to did mention that the guys involved in that are doing their homework and are pretty relaxed that no drastic measures are going to come out of it. If you wanted to play an active part you could always join them

 

[BelfastScorpion]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Just one more quick question.

So let me get something straight. If the ban were to go ahead, it would only be a ban on animals from outside Europe being imported into Europe. Therefore all animals that are native within Europe could still be legally imported throughout Europe. Hope that makes sense. In other words we would still be able to keep European scorpion species.

Is that right?