Ball Python enclosure questions.

[dark FrOsT]

i have heard of ppl using latex paint to seal there enclosures, keeps water and moisture out then i would silicome (sp) the edges also

 

[K-TRAIN]

Your snake might not die but it is bad advice, so please dont give it to people who dont know what is right and might follow it
If you want to say this is how i do it and it works for me thats one thing but please dont say it is if its the best and only way.

Snakes can live in many diferint environments but not alwais healthily and a slight upper respiratory infection that normally they could have fought off on there own could turn into lower resp and kill them or make for a $200 vet bill...

~Samuel

look, im not tryin to give bad advice. everyone says im giving bad advice, but did you ever raise animals like me? if a person takes my advice over another persons thats fine. im just giving my opinion on how to keep a snake.

Hal,

I can give you a very unbiased anwser to your question, seeings I'm not a snake owner, but know a few. I know they need good husbandry, a realtive of mine had about 5 of them, and there was an ice storm which left the state of Maine immobile, without power and in a state of emergency for some time. They lost power in the morning and by the night the snakes were all dead/almost dead and motionless. Although this is extreme, it goes to show how easily they're health can degrade in bad conditions. He didn't have a completly soaked enclosure, but he did have a solid top to restrict ventilation and misted/changed out the enclosure everyday. On the other had, I have another realitive (both are adults, over 35 by the way) who kept one on newspaper, screen top and no moisture except for the water dish, it died about 2 years after he got it and didn't get nearly as large as any of the snakes my other realitive kept, who has been keeping ever since I was a child. So I would definently listen to everyone who reccomends humidity and good heat. Remember also these are COLD BLOODED creatures, meaning they NEED heat to regulate they're metabolism. (Im sure you know, but I wanted to add it) Not monitoring heat/humidity is basically reckless, and anyone who feels that way belongs sleeping on railroad tracks for a few laughs, not killing..I mean keeping* animals.

PS, varnishing the wood should be fine, I've seen many enclosures done that way, just use descretion to find a kind that seems least caustic.
Another PS, I would just disregard the arguing, scorp,mushroom and bear are all good dudes, they are just looking out for your best interest, plus the person in question is a juvenile, so his expirence is absoultly limited compared to the more frequent and knowledgable contributors to the website. I know I was always looking for a fight when I was 16. Kids, lol.

look. just so you know. it may seem like im looking to start arguments, but im not. and i'd suggest you watch what you say about my experience. just cause im 16 doesnt mean im not that experienced. i've raised reptiles since i was 4 years old. and have studied them too. someone who could already be a herpetologist has more experience then most people. im already willing to spend my life studying wildlife and the environment. referencing what i said above, im giving advice. thats all. you can say im inexperienced, a horrible keeper, whatever. but dont contribute it to me being 16. no offense, but i might have more experience then most of the people on the boards when they were my age.

 

[EAD063]

when they were my age.

But not now. I'd be curious as to where you are studying. You are aware you need a masters and a Ph. D to be a herpetologist. Long away from that, and a very hard road ahead. Good signs of tenacity, but you have much to learn. I wasn't trying to throw a personal blow at you before, as I said great tenacity, but I was 16 once too, very opinionate.

 

[K-TRAIN]

But not now. I'd be curious as to where you are studying. You are aware you need a masters and a Ph. D to be a herpetologist. Long away from that, and a very hard road ahead. Good signs of tenacity, but you have much to learn. I wasn't trying to throw a personal blow at you before, as I said great tenacity, but I was 16 once too, very opinionate.

i know all about it. but thats all i need now. i have enough experience. i mean, im at the point where my nicknames changing from "k-train" to copperhead because i pick up random venomous snakes when i have too. and i've never been bit. (i do understand though its not if you get bit, its when) i still learn as much as i can every day though. i know my ideas of how animals should be raised is different from other peoples, but you really shouldnt say im inexperienced because i found a method that works for me. i understand that you weren't trying to say that in a bad way or anything, but i just cant stand people who think their ways are the only "right" way.

 

[Bear Foot Inc]

look, im not tryin to give bad advice. everyone says im giving bad advice, but did you ever raise animals like me? if a person takes my advice over another persons thats fine. im just giving my opinion on how to keep a snake.



look. just so you know. it may seem like im looking to start arguments, but im not. and i'd suggest you watch what you say about my experience. just cause im 16 doesnt mean im not that experienced. i've raised reptiles since i was 4 years old. and have studied them too. someone who could already be a herpetologist has more experience then most people. im already willing to spend my life studying wildlife and the environment. referencing what i said above, im giving advice. thats all. you can say im inexperienced, a horrible keeper, whatever. but dont contribute it to me being 16. no offense, but i might have more experience then most of the people on the boards when they were my age.

Well buddy, I'm 15... I work at a reptile rescue and do reptile education programs. I am not bragging but i do know how to keep reptiles. Just because you have caught lots of snakes, or kept some (even for many years) does not mean you know what your doing at all.
And saying you've kept since you were 4 is absolutely not relative!! You could not have actually been able to care for them till 8+ and to actually be able to study and truly learn from them... I'm sorry but if you are interested in becoming a "herpotoligist" you need to lean how to keep your snakes right. Keep an open mind and when someone shows/tells you something your doing wrong with your husbandry its best to lean from it rather then fight back. If someone tells me that i should do this with my keeping i alwais am willing to hear them out and find out just what is right.
Also just because around your house you know the most about snakes does not mean that there are not people who know more then you other places. There are many people who have kept and worked with snakes for 30+ years on here so it pays to listen.

 

[Bear Foot Inc]

i know all about it. but thats all i need now. i have enough experience. i mean, im at the point where my nicknames changing from "k-train" to copperhead because i pick up random venomous snakes when i have too. and i've never been bit. (i do understand though its not if you get bit, its when) i still learn as much as i can every day though. i know my ideas of how animals should be raised is different from other peoples, but you really shouldnt say im inexperienced because i found a method that works for me. i understand that you weren't trying to say that in a bad way or anything, but i just cant stand people who think their ways are the only "right" way.

Oh and what are we supposed to say about you picking up "random venomous snakes"? Its not a moncho thing... People are not going to respect you more because you say you have hooked a venomous snake. Its just foolish IMA. We are not saying your "inexperienced" and getting on your case so much because you do stuff wrong but because your not willing to learn and shun what we have to say.

 

[K-TRAIN]

Well buddy, I'm 15... I work at a reptile rescue and do reptile education programs. I am not bragging but i do know how to keep reptiles. Just because you have caught lots of snakes, or kept some (even for many years) does not mean you know what your doing at all.
And saying you've kept since you were 4 is absolutely not relative!! You could not have actually been able to care for them till 8+ and to actually be able to study and truly learn from them... I'm sorry but if you are interested in becoming a "herpotoligist" you need to lean how to keep your snakes right. Keep an open mind and when someone shows/tells you something your doing wrong with your husbandry its best to lean from it rather then fight back. If someone tells me that i should do this with my keeping i alwais am willing to hear them out and find out just what is right.
Also just because around your house you know the most about snakes does not mean that there are not people who know more then you other places. There are many people who have kept and worked with snakes for 30+ years on here so it pays to listen.

look man, where you work, and what you do means nothing to me, iight? im gettin tired of you actin like your an expert. YOUR NOT! i have my way of herp keeping, and you have yours. dont try to make yourself look like your better. and furthermore, ive worked with alot more animals then you. so dont tell me that "just because i caught/owned some" stuff. if your so sure im not good at raising reptiles/amphibians/tarantulas, message me. i'll let you see my current collection. and another thing.......... i know alot of people who have worked with reptiles, including snakes, for over 30 years. I LEARNED FROM THEM. thats all.

 

[Bear Foot Inc]

look man, where you work, and what you do means nothing to me, iight? im gettin tired of you actin like your an expert. YOUR NOT! i have my way of herp keeping, and you have yours. dont try to make yourself look like your better. and furthermore, ive worked with alot more animals then you. so dont tell me that "just because i caught/owned some" stuff. if your so sure im not good at raising reptiles/amphibians/tarantulas, message me. i'll let you see my current collection. and another thing.......... i know alot of people who have worked with reptiles, including snakes, for over 30 years. I LEARNED FROM THEM. thats all.

I see... I was not saying i am an expert just that i'm not some "Know it all kid". And how do you know you have worked with a lot more animals then me? Like maybe give me a good list of what you have worked with. And then we can see if you have more experince then me.
Look man i'm not trying to make this into a fight. Just trying to help. You wont lean anything by acting like you are,
~Samuel

 

[Arietans]

Guys, slow down a bit.

He gave his opinion, and whether you agree with it or not, its still his opinion. He can either learn from other people's advice or he can't. But by starting an argument he most certainly won't learn anything from what you have to say.

K-train, herpetology is not simply catching snakes. There is a great deal of work that happens long before you pick up a reptile. I have been working with venomous snakes for 14 years, and I still learn something new everyday. The whole learning thing is what makes it worthwhile for me. Calm down a touch and read through some of the posts, there is fairly good advice there.

As for lighting and heating, I never use anything like that here in the summer. Its already hot and humid, so I certainly don't want to add to it. And my forest cobras are most happy with that. Does that make me wrong?

The best way to set up for an animal is to learn its natural history. If its perfect in nature it will be perfect in a cage.

 

[Avic_Addict]

I agree with Arietans, the natural history and biology of the animal in its wild state will provide essentially all the information we need to maintain them happily and healthily in captivity, as is the basis of reptile husbandry.

Lads, please keep arguments to PM only ; - its not fair on other people who have come here for advice to have their threads clogged up with squabbling, not to mention you risk having your accounts suspended by a moderator. So chill guys.

 

[Mushroom Spore]

And just to it's said. I live in Norway, where all reptiles are forbidden, in other words - I have close to zero chance to get a reptile to a vet.

I hate to say it, but you really shouldn't get one, then. Especially with how prone balls are to catching something if the house gets cold...what a vet could fix easily with a few shots will kill a snake if left untreated. Sucks, oh man it sucks, I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't have my pets. But if I couldn't get them vet care in this country, I wouldn't have the heart to have them.

 

[Bear Foot Inc]

I agree with Arietans, the natural history and biology of the animal in its wild state will provide essentially all the information we need to maintain them happily and healthily in captivity, as is the basis of reptile husbandry.

Lads, please keep arguments to PM only ; - its not fair on other people who have come here for advice to have their threads clogged up with squabbling, not to mention you risk having your accounts suspended by a moderator. So chill guys.

Your both right! Sorry i got a little carried away.:8o
I was really just trying to make sure the snakes got the best care. From Now on i'll no get off topic.
Sorry again OP,
~Samuel

 

[Halgeir]

I hate to say it, but you really shouldn't get one, then. Especially with how prone balls are to catching something if the house gets cold...what a vet could fix easily with a few shots will kill a snake if left untreated. Sucks, oh man it sucks, I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't have my pets. But if I couldn't get them vet care in this country, I wouldn't have the heart to have them.

Hey Mushroom Spore. I have thought about it, but I just have to give more attention to it's conditions. Warmth, humidity etc. And If it gets sick, I'd rather take it to the vet and get it cured and take the consequences after.

 

[Halgeir]

I thought of using wood and glass. Make a frame of wood, front and the sides with glass and the backside of wood.

Hi there!

When building your viv I would strongly recommend not using glass for anything except the door at the front of the viv. The rest (walls, floor, ceiling) should be constructed of wood which can be sealed using one or two coats of good quality non-toxic yatch varnish (examples of good vivs for royals at www.vivbuilder.co.uk). The reasons for not using glass are:

1) Royals are very shy and prone to agraphobia, hence them not liking vivs that are too big. A royal kept in a viv built largely of glass would feel very exposed and vulnerable, leading to stress and a refusal to eat. By making the walls solid, you will make the snake feel much more secure and happier in its environment.

2) Glass does not hold heat as well as wood, making it very difficult to maintain correct temperatures within the enclosure which can lead to a sick snake and a lot of money wasted on electricity.

3) Glass expands rapidly when heated and so there is always a risk of it cracking and injuring your animal.

4) Excess glass in an enclosure can lead to the development of an abnormal behaviour called ITB (Interaction with Transparant Boundaries) in which the reptile becomes increasingly distressed and rubs its face against the glass until it is bloody and raw. This is a stereotypic behaviour (in the same class as the abnormal pacing back and forth behaviours seen in big cats in zoos or circuses) and is defined by animal behaviourists as a sign of mental abnormality.

Also, I must stress that heatmats and hotrocks must be avoided at all costs when housing royals. They are a type of boid (class of heavy-bodied snakes including pythons, anacondas and boas) and will easily burn themselves without realising on any form of ground-level heating. I have had to deal with more royals with thermal burns from heatmats than I care to remember, and the damage can be devestating.

Instead, I would recommend a heat-plate or ceramic heater (with reflector, heat resistant holder and safety cage) for large enclosures of say, 36 inches by 24 inches, and infra-red basking bulbs with safety cage for smaller vivaria. Obviously all heaters must be run on thermostats.

One last thing; - Please, please please DON'T feed your snakes on live rodent prey. I know it is common in the USA and many people swear that it is healthier/more natural for the snake but it can be so very dangerous. Again, it is sadly one of those things that I have seen in surgery too many times - the snake doesnt eat for whatever reason, and ends up being attacked by the rodent resulting in horrific injuries or even death of the snake. It can happen in just a flash and even those people who say 'Oh its ok, I always supervise at feeding times so the snake doesn't get hurt' aren't doing their animals any favours as it only takes a split second for a rat to sink its teeth into the snakes eyeball.

The pics in this post (about halfway down the page) should be enough to convince anyone that feeding live prey is not in the interests of the snake (ask any reptile vet if you need further proof).

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/22911-making-live-feeding-safer-2.html


Anyway, sorry to have gone on. I hope this helps - keep us updated and don't be afraid to ask questions!

Thanks a lot for your post and tips!

Heating - Almost everyone I've talked to about this, says that heat pads are ok to have under the tank for heating. And if I use one of the lamps you are talking about, don't I need some kind of special light? Since BP's are nocturnal?

Feeding - I've heard that and I will not feed my snake living food.

Enclosure - Then I will build the enclosure mainly in wood, except the front which will be glass. But, what about ventilation? Do I need much ventilation, or?

 

[Mushroom Spore]

And If it gets sick, I'd rather take it to the vet and get it cured and take the consequences after.

This made me smile. It's probably still not the most awesome idea, but if you're willing to suck it up and take it to a vet anyway if it comes down to a question of the snake's life, you're a good person.

 

[Avic_Addict]

No problem!

I know a lot of people that keep their snakes in glass fishtanks wall: ) will use heatmats under the glass to heat the inside of the tank, but this should really be avoided for reasons already described.
You can try using a heatmat under a wooden viv, but I don't imagine that the heat will travel well through the wood, and will probably just scorch it instead, creating a fire hazard.

The basking bulbs I mentioned should be the infra-red type, made of red glass (Not normal clear glass with red dye painted on, but actual red glass) as these give out heat but do not interfere with the nocturnal royals' daytime/nightime pattern. There is debate as to whether royals can actually see the red light given off by these bulbs, but in my experience the answer is 'No' - all my herps past and present have thrived and bred under infra-red bulbs. We also keep all the animals in our ICU under infra-red bulbs as it provides a deep penetrating heat that increases metabolism and aids recovery following surgery. It is important to use a safety cage with all basking bulbs, to stop the enclosure's occupant from touching the bulb and burning itself.

As for ventilation, the best way to provide adequate air exchange is to use small plastic vents available from DIY stores or Ebay ( http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/sea...from=R8&satitle=vivarium+air+vents&category0= ) and place one in the bottom left corner of the back of the viv, and one in the top right - this creates a current whereby air is drawn in through the lower vent, across the viv and out of the top vent. Royals don't need masses of ventilation in the same way that say, chameleons do, just enough to remove excess humidity and prevent the air inside the viv from going stale. Too much ventilation will mess up your temperatures and probably give the snake a cold (always be vigilant for snotty noses and open-mouthed gasping in royals - respiratory infections are killers).

:}

 

[Halgeir]

No problem!

I know a lot of people that keep their snakes in glass fishtanks wall: ) will use heatmats under the glass to heat the inside of the tank, but this should really be avoided for reasons already described.
You can try using a heatmat under a wooden viv, but I don't imagine that the heat will travel well through the wood, and will probably just scorch it instead, creating a fire hazard.

The basking bulbs I mentioned should be the infra-red type, made of red glass (Not normal clear glass with red dye painted on, but actual red glass) as these give out heat but do not interfere with the nocturnal royals' daytime/nightime pattern. There is debate as to whether royals can actually see the red light given off by these bulbs, but in my experience the answer is 'No' - all my herps past and present have thrived and bred under infra-red bulbs. We also keep all the animals in our ICU under infra-red bulbs as it provides a deep penetrating heat that increases metabolism and aids recovery following surgery. It is important to use a safety cage with all basking bulbs, to stop the enclosure's occupant from touching the bulb and burning itself.

As for ventilation, the best way to provide adequate air exchange is to use small plastic vents available from DIY stores or Ebay ( http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/sea...from=R8&satitle=vivarium+air+vents&category0= ) and place one in the bottom left corner of the back of the viv, and one in the top right - this creates a current whereby air is drawn in through the lower vent, across the viv and out of the top vent. Royals don't need masses of ventilation in the same way that say, chameleons do, just enough to remove excess humidity and prevent the air inside the viv from going stale. Too much ventilation will mess up your temperatures and probably give the snake a cold (always be vigilant for snotty noses and open-mouthed gasping in royals - respiratory infections are killers).

:}

Ok, I'm going to go for the heating lamps that you're talking about, but I'm unsure if I'm able to get my hands on one after all, and I'm a little unsure of we are on the same page...
http://www.aquariuszoo.com/catalog/terra/product_info.php?cPath=53_170&products_id=2192
with one of these... http://www.aquariuszoo.com/catalog/terra/product_info.php?cPath=53_204&products_id=2601
This one, is probably the closest I'm getting, but I'm not sure if this is what you mean...
I'm going to check the local pet stores to check if they have something else...
Do you have a link or something to what you're thinking of?

 

[Avic_Addict]

Ok, I'm going to go for the heating lamps that you're talking about, but I'm unsure if I'm able to get my hands on one after all, and I'm a little unsure of we are on the same page...
http://www.aquariuszoo.com/catalog/terra/product_info.php?cPath=53_170&products_id=2192
with one of these... http://www.aquariuszoo.com/catalog/terra/product_info.php?cPath=53_204&products_id=2601
This one, is probably the closest I'm getting, but I'm not sure if this is what you mean...
I'm going to check the local pet stores to check if they have something else...
Do you have a link or something to what you're thinking of?

Hiya,

The bulb is perfect except being a little large - 100W is going to be very hot and probably only suitable if you have a massive tank, as your thermostat is going to be working overtime to control its output. If you can find the same bulb in a lower wattage, say 50 or 75W then that would be ideal.
Try this - http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=373.
If you can't get a lower Wattage bulb then the 100W would be ok as long as you are extra careful to make sure the snake doesn't overheat.

Also the clamp lamp holder you found is fine as long as it has some kind of barrier such as a wire cover over the opening to stop the snake from being able to touch the bulb, I belive this one fits the clamp lamps - http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=733.

Alternatively from the clamp lamps are the straightforward wire safety cages. I use these in all my vivs - http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=598 - as I find its better to allow the heat to fill one end of the viv rather than being directed down onto a single spot with a reflector.

Don't forget that any heat bulbs will need to be run on dimmer thermostats. These can be a bit expensive but are very important. I recommend these - http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=153

:}

 

[Halgeir]

Hiya,

The bulb is perfect except being a little large - 100W is going to be very hot and probably only suitable if you have a massive tank, as your thermostat is going to be working overtime to control its output. If you can find the same bulb in a lower wattage, say 50 or 75W then that would be ideal.
Try this - http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=373.
If you can't get a lower Wattage bulb then the 100W would be ok as long as you are extra careful to make sure the snake doesn't overheat.

Also the clamp lamp holder you found is fine as long as it has some kind of barrier such as a wire cover over the opening to stop the snake from being able to touch the bulb, I belive this one fits the clamp lamps - http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=733.

Alternatively from the clamp lamps are the straightforward wire safety cages. I use these in all my vivs - http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=598 - as I find its better to allow the heat to fill one end of the viv rather than being directed down onto a single spot with a reflector.

Don't forget that any heat bulbs will need to be run on dimmer thermostats. These can be a bit expensive but are very important. I recommend these - http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=153

:}

So the lamp is good, just need a lower watts bulb, ok. I'll check what I can find in my local pet stores. Thanks a lot for your help! I'll continue posting if I run into any trouble. Again, thanks.

 

[jr47]

i actually wouldnt use wood if you can. It can be used successfully but can also lead to problems (plus its harder to clean). I forget the name of the material but you can purchase something and stores like Home Depot (they have those in Norway?) its very similar to plastic material, and they can cut it for you there to the sizes needed.

Wood will work but make sure its 100% treated or it can lead to problems. Best of luck with your new addition when you get it!

treated lumber is not a real good idea. unless you totally seal it which if your going to do that you dont need treated anyway. there are alot of chemicals in treated lumber that can cause respiration problems. also soak through the skin if the wood becomes damp. do a little research and you will find alot of info on this.
also have say that heat is very important for digestion. regaurdless of what some want to think. the cooler the snake is kept the longer digestion will take. if they are to cool the last meal can actually start to decay before it is digested. can cause the snake to regurge its meal. or it can pass half digested. which in extreme cases can cause a snake to prolapse. im not saying that you cant keep a ball python at 70 degrees. just saying it puts an extra strain on the snake and can cause other problems. mine after a good meal would almost always curl up under the heat pads and stay for 3 or 4 days. given that i think obviously they prefere to be warm when they are digesting a good meal. after they would usually go back to the cool side of the cage. i think at least they should have an area where they can warm themselves if they want to.