B. albopilosum in a rain forrest setup with humidifier...

[boina]

So, in my LPS is a B. albopilosum, the only T they have, and it's on soaking wet substrate with a humidifier to keep the humidity up - humidity being controlled by the usual cheap gauge. Condensation everywhere, as you can imagine. Half of the enclosure is taken up by a HUGE water bowl, big enough for a small Boa constrictor to take a bath in.
Now, Germany has very strict animal protection laws, so if I can prove they are doing anything detrimental to the health of any animal they keep they get heavily fined, so you'd think it would be easy to have them change the setup.
However, there is this site (vogelspinneninfo.de) that recommends exactly this setup as the one to go with for a B. albopilosum. It's a big and very professional looking site spreading a lot of horribly wrong advice about tarantulas and its the first site you get when you google B. albo care in German.
How do I explain to the pet shop people that the advice from this site is WRONG? They are generally willing to listen - they have to, as I just explained - but they insist they are just following the "best" available care sheet... and unfortunately they don't speak English, so just telling them to ask here doesn't work.

 

[metallica]

Well the enclosure does sound a lot like the habitat we found B. albopilosum in at type locallity, Costa Rica.
See the pics here: http://mantid.nl/tarantula/albopilosum.html

 

[KezyGLA]

Yeah they are definitely more tropical of Brachypelma along with some of the redrump. Its all very well having the humidity. But the condensation isnt good, that would point to a ventilation issue. And stuffy stagnant cages ultimately end in death.

 

[boina]

Well the enclosure does sound a lot like the habitat we found B. albopilosum in at type locallity, Costa Rica.
See the pics here: http://mantid.nl/tarantula/albopilosum.html

I know the (your) page. But: they do have a prolonged dry period in that area, too, right? You don't usually get the recommendation to put B. albopilosum in a swamp with soaking wet substrate and a humidifier constantly raining down on them, right? In a glas enclosure with minimal ventilation?

 

[metallica]

Dry season? Yes sure.... but not now. Now is rain.

 

[boina]

Dry season? Yes sure.... but not now. Now is rain.

So after you experience with B. albopilosum in the wild you'd recommend a swamp setup with more moisture than for Theraphosas or M. mesomelas?

 

[Rittdk01]

I can say my b Albo drinks more than any of my other spiders. Setup sounds like major overkill, though. If the ventilation is wrong it will become full of mold. I only have a few t's that could survive in that setup for any amount of time: T stirmi, H gigas and A seemanni.

 

[Crone Returns]

So, in my LPS is a B. albopilosum, the only T they have, and it's on soaking wet substrate with a humidifier to keep the humidity up - humidity being controlled by the usual cheap gauge. Condensation everywhere, as you can imagine. Half of the enclosure is taken up by a HUGE water bowl, big enough for a small Boa constrictor to take a bath in.
Now, Germany has very strict animal protection laws, so if I can prove they are doing anything detrimental to the health of any animal they keep they get heavily fined, so you'd think it would be easy to have them change the setup.
However, there is this site (vogelspinneninfo.de) that recommends exactly this setup as the one to go with for a B. albopilosum. It's a big and very professional looking site spreading a lot of horribly wrong advice about tarantulas and its the first site you get when you google B. albo care in German.
How do I explain to the pet shop people that the advice from this site is WRONG? They are generally willing to listen - they have to, as I just explained - but they insist they are just following the "best" available care sheet... and unfortunately they don't speak English, so just telling them to ask here doesn't work.

Wait. What? Wet stuff, humidifier? RESCUE that poor thing!!

 

[Nightstalker47]

Well the enclosure does sound a lot like the habitat we found B. albopilosum in at type locallity, Costa Rica.
See the pics here: http://mantid.nl/tarantula/albopilosum.html[[

Doesn't mean they need to live in the exact same conditions, matter of fact many wild conditions are not ideal, wich leads to heavy losses. Tarantulas are hardy creatures, we have figured out the proper ways of keeping them in captivity through trial and error.

What was described in this thread seems like a death trap. Leading to an overly humid and stuffy environement.
Especially for a species that does very well in captivity on moderately dry sub with a water dish.

 

[boina]

Doesn't mean they need to live in the exact same conditions, matter of fact many wild conditions are not ideal, wich leads to heavy losses. Tarantulas are hardy creatures, we have figured out the proper ways of keeping them in captivity through trial and error.

What was described in this thread seems like a death trap. Leading to an overly humid and stuffy environement.
Especially for a species that does very well in captivity on moderately dry sub with a water dish.

Thank you so much for stating that!

@metallica - The problem with the conditions in the wild is that it is impossible to replicate them. You cannot replicate the diurnal and seasonal changes in weather, rain pattern, wind, you cannot replicate the trees to escape the flooding etc. etc. No, that setup looks like nothing in the wild just because it's humid and they do experience flooding in the wild. They experience a lot of other things in the wild, like predation, starvation, overpopulation, etc and nothing of that means they need it to survive or it's even beneficial for them, it only means they are hardy and hard to kill. Conditions in the wild may give you some pointers as to what a species might need but then you have to go from there and figure out what really works in captivity.

 

[Trenor]

Doesn't mean they need to live in the exact same conditions, matter of fact many wild conditions are not ideal, wich leads to heavy losses. Tarantulas are hardy creatures, we have figured out the proper ways of keeping them in captivity through trial and error.

I don't totally agree with this. While it is true keeping them pretty dry with a water dish works out well. We as a group on here often fall into the idea that since this one way works it's the "Proper" way to keep the species. I've seen, in the time I have kept Ts, that a lot of them can be kept in varying different ways and still thrive well. Also saying that we have perfected a better way of keeping them over the habitat they evolved in is not something I agree with. As you say, they are adaptable, and they are likely having to adapt to our care more than they have to in the wild IMO. We tend to tell new keepers on here that way of keeping them because if you over do the dry and it has a water dish you're ok. If you over do the moisture and lack the ventilation to deal with it then you have problem. It's odd to me to think that a tarantula that comes from an area that has heavy rains for 7 months out of the year would have it's "perfect" care on bone dry substrate.

That being said (based only on the description of how they are being kept) I doubt I would go this extreme with them. Enclosures makes it harder to control air flow and other factors so they would become stuffy where heavy rains and standing water in the wild would not be.

 

[boina]

Also saying that we have perfected a better way of keeping them over the habitat they evolved in is not something I agree with.

So you think flooding, droughts, storms, wildfires, predation etc. make up ideal conditions?

Let me give you an example from a different field of biology: Birch trees. You'll find birches on sandy, dry soil or on wet bog like terrain. In woods on great, nutritious soil other trees dominate. Now is that because birch trees cannot thive on nutrient rich soil? On the contrary - they do phantastic on that soil! They just can't compete with other, heavier trees for the better soil so they get pushed to the edges where other trees like beech and oak will not do well anymore. Another often cited example for this are axolotls, btw.

What I meant to say is that just because something lives in a certain conditions in the wild doesn't always mean it's the best conditions for that living being.

And I've never ever heard of a tarantula in the wild sitting in a glass cage - Captivity is not and will never ever be the same as "the wild". If you tweak on factor (putting it in a cage) you need to be prepared to tweak other factors.

And now please tell me why even experienced keepers do not keep a B. albopilosum in constantly completely wet conditions if that's so beneficial.

 

[boina]

Anyway, I give up. If even around here I get so many "But in the wild they live in an area that gets flooding" arguments there is absolutely no way I can persuade pet shop people to change the setup.

 

[keks]

Maybe they live in the wild in flooded areas, but then they don't stay on the sodden ground? The pictures show that they are on trees. And they have fresh air around, so they don't sit in stagnant air like it is in an enclosure.
I keep my B. albopilosum more moist than the other tarantulas, but not wet. It is a slight moisture. It is not a mudskipper ^^.
@boina There are more boards than vogelspinnen.info. For example this one: https://vogelspinnenforum.ch/lexicon/index.php/Entry/15-Brachypelma-albopilosum/ .

 

[Trenor]

I just contested his assertion that the way we tell people to keep that species of tarantula was more ideal when compared to it's normal environment.

So you think flooding, droughts, storms, wildfires, predation etc. make up ideal conditions?

So you think putting them in a confined space that amounts to a desert (totally dry substrate and low moisture) with less airflow and a water dish is ideal conditions for a species that comes from a tropical climate? No adapting needed there right?

I never advocated flooding your tarantula. I didn't say set fire to your enclosure cause wild fires can happen. That whole set of arguments are bogus and has little equivalency with the keeping conditions we are working with as keepers.

If I put a person in a concrete room where they had light that was the same as outside... gave them the basics they needed food water warmth etc. Where they would be safe from anyone harming them. Safe from the elements (rain, snow, whatever). Padded that thing up so they couldn't hurt themselves. They would be much less likely to get a disease because they are isolated. They would live. People are adaptable. They likely will live longer than some random person running about in a crowded city where harm is easier to encounter. Would you then say that this is the ideal way to keep them when compared to their natural environment?

As I was trying to say in the earlier post, bone dry substrate with water dish is more for the ease in care for the keeper. Someone new is less likely to mess up those care instructions. I keep my girl on light moist substrate (adding water to the bottom of the substrate not the top) and will often have a moist area from wetting one corner (from the top). I do let it dry out before wetting it again. I likely have a lot more ventilation than others use on here. She is doing fine.

Finally, I said (without seeing any of the setup for myself) based on the description you gave I wouldn't keep that species like you described it was being kept. Just because I don't think the easy way to keep this species is perfect doesn't mean I'm advocating going to the other extreme of making them live in a mud puddle.

Maybe next time I should just say what the thread starter wants to hear and not try to have a discussion when I see something I don't totally agree with.

 

[boina]

Maybe next time I should just say what the thread starter wants to hear and not try to have a discussion when I see something I don't totally agree with.

What's wrong with a discussion?

If I put a person in a concrete room where they had light that was the same as outside...

That argument doesn't hold water... I do think that people have different intellectual requirements than tarantulas and so do you. We have absolutely no idea if a tarantulas prefers safety or excitement, but from behavioural clues my guess would be they prefer safety. Actually I do think the way we keep them takes better care of ALL their needs than life in the wild, but that's not really a scientific argument but more of a personal opinion.

And I never advocated a bone dry environment. All I said is that we can't reconstruct 'the wild' in our care anyway. It doesn't make sense to pick out one single factor (moisture/humidity) and declare that should be like in the wild while we ignore the rest. Captivity is captivity and we need to stick to what works in captivity and the optimal way to keep them in captivity will by necessity be different than in the wild. The "But in the wild..." argument doesn't work.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

So, in my LPS is a B. albopilosum, the only T they have, and it's on soaking wet substrate with a humidifier to keep the humidity up - humidity being controlled by the usual cheap gauge. Condensation everywhere, as you can imagine. Half of the enclosure is taken up by a HUGE water bowl, big enough for a small Boa constrictor to take a bath in.

I'm sad for that 'brachy' but couldn't resist to laugh, Cora (small Boa, ah ah)... how that's possible, I say?

I mean... all of those stuff inside, basically, are by far a lot of (useless, harmful) effort than providing a normal water dish with normal, maybe just slightly moist a bit, substrate & hide. Amazing

 

[Nightstalker47]

So you think putting them in a confined space that amounts to a desert (totally dry substrate and low moisture) with less airflow and a water dish is ideal conditions for a species that comes from a tropical climate? No adapting needed there right?

I never advocated flooding your tarantula. I didn't say set fire to your enclosure cause wild fires can happen. That whole set of arguments are bogus and has little equivalency with the keeping conditions we are working with as keepers.

As I was trying to say in the earlier post, bone dry substrate with water dish is more for the ease in care for the keeper. Someone new is less likely to mess up those care instructions. I keep my girl on light moist substrate (adding water to the bottom of the substrate not the top) and will often have a moist area from wetting one corner (from the top). I do let it dry out before wetting it again. I likely have a lot more ventilation than others use on here. She is doing fine.

Seriously? Your all over the place man, clearly misunderstood my point. Never said to keep them "bone dry"... you can definitely overflow their water bowls, but the sub in the enclosure should be predominantly dry.

What was described in this thread seems like a death trap. Leading to an overly humid and stuffy environement.

They have a humidifier in the already drenched enclosure, they clearly think the species requires super high humidity. This is false, and often leads to husbandry mistakes.

Plus it's on muddy wet sub...the point is that attempting to replicate these wild conditions is clearly going to cause more harm then good.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

If even around here I get so many "But in the wild they live in an area that gets flooding" arguments there is absolutely no way I can persuade pet shop people to change the setup.

You know, Cora... that's a statement I personally can't stand

I've heard here people that, basically, for a Megaphobema robustum, due to such kind of statement/s, they suggest:

- Temperatures like the one of a cool Campari Soda (damn, I love that Italian liver killer stuff, with just an hint of class A white wine )

- Humidity like "Swamp Thing" monster (they need humidity on the high side, ok, but...)

Needless to say, mine is perfectly healthy housed in almost 12 inches of slightly moist substrate (that's what they need, inches of substrate), normal room temperatures, and she's always hungry like an horse

People tend to forget that "the wild" and, at our home "captivity", sometimes are slightly different

 

[boina]

Campari Soda (damn, I love that Italian liver killer stuff, with just an hint of class A white wine )

Uhhhhhh.... I like Gin. And right now I'm having a beer. (I'm a Northerner - we drink beer, not wine )