Avicularia (and exes) and substrate.

[JoshDM020]

There was a thread recently where somebody had used coconut bark instead of fiber. As most of you know, this isnt suitable for most tarantulas at all. Then i noticed a few people say (paraphrasing) "Thats fine for an avic, because they dont touch the ground often, but dont use it for anything else" which makes perfect sense.
But as i sat here thinking about it, i recalled an old thread from roughly a decade ago that had a few members not using substrate at all for avics. They used about an inch of water, instead, because people still thought humidity was what was important. Im not suggesting we use water, because now we know humidity isnt a priority at all.
But could you get away with no substrate at all for avics? It makes sense that if the wrong sub is ok for use, then no sub is also acceptable.
I may be way off, this was from a seriously old thread, and theres only three benefits i could really see coming from it.
1. Easier to keep clean. Poop cant stick to dirt if there is no dirt.
2. No lost feeders. If you forget to crush the head on something, theres no panicked rehouse while you dig up the feeder. Also no risk of accidental swarms of baby crickets.
3. No sub for newbies to mistakenly keep damp.
1 and 2 arent really pressing matters, and 3 is a bit of a stretch, because theres no way a newbie is going to find "no substrate needed" before they find "keep substrate damp". But still. Worth listing.
Basically, this is something i found that resonated and i want to find out if theres any merit here. Im in no way suggesting we drop what we know and do this instead. Just curious if its a viable option.

 

[ccTroi]

I, too, have been thinking of using no substrate at all.

With Avicularia and the recently revised similar genera, they have tendencies to go up and settle even as slings. I prefer to use AMAC boxes inverted (longer portion is on top) for this very reason. Utilizing AMACs as enclosures is more efficient for me than using enclosures that open from the top-lid (deli cups). No longer do I disturb my specimens and destroy their webbing when opening their enclosures to the extent top-lid enclosures do. This would also make refilling the "pool" of water much easier.

Removing substrate altogether has a negative I am particularly concerned of - keeping the water clean. I feed all of my collection once a week and refill water as I go. Within a week, the majority of specimens will drop boluses into the water below along with some feces. I'm not certain if the contamination described affects tarantulas negatively. I only provide clean water source, I am quick to clean and replace contaminated water.

Should I replace substrate with water, I would rather keep a few water bowls in the form of bottle caps. The tarantula would have multiple sources of clean drinking water if a bolus happens to drop in one of the caps.

 

[spookyvibes]

1. Easier to keep clean. Poop cant stick to dirt if there is no dirt.

Poop is much easier to clean from the substrate than the actual side of the enclosure imo. Plus Avics don’t really poop on the sub anyways, most of it is on the sides of the enclosure (at least that’s what mine does.)

2. No lost feeders. If you forget to crush the head on something, theres no panicked rehouse while you dig up the feeder. Also no risk of accidental swarms of baby crickets.

I wouldn’t worry too much about escapes feeders with something like an Avic since they usually don’t hang out on the ground. Baby crickets are annoying though.

3. No sub for newbies to mistakenly keep damp.

As you said, they probably will read “Keep Avics on damp sub” before “Keep Avics on no sub.” But, I will say that it would be easier for newbies to resist keeping the sub damp since there would be no sub.

I don’t think it’s necessary for Avics to have substrate. It’s mostly there for terrarium aesthetics.

 

[boina]

I think the TKG recommends to keep Avics without substrate and the authors got bashed for it pretty badly, but I can't really figure out why. I prefer to have proper substrate in my Avic enclosures in case they came down to drink or hunt or whatever but I don't think lack of substrate would be all that bad.

 

[Venom1080]

not necessary imo. but some avics will incorporate sub into their webbing, and its alot easier to keep decor in place if its stuck in the sub. plus it looks better.

 

[JoshDM020]

Should I replace substrate with water

Not what i was getting at at all. I mentioned it, and then how bad of an idea it is. An inch of nothing but water would be more humidity (bad for avics) than damp sub. There would still be a designated water dish, for sure.

I think the TKG recommends to keep Avics without substrate and the authors got bashed for it pretty badly, but I can't really figure out why. I prefer to have proper substrate in my Avic enclosures in case they came down to drink or hunt or whatever but I don't think lack of substrate would be all that bad.

Interesting that itd get such a negative reaction. I wonder if there was a string of bad endings for the members i saw in the thread. Which i may need to track down for reference.

 

[Theneil]

I think the TKG recommends to keep Avics without substrate and the authors got bashed for it pretty badly, but I can't really figure out why. I prefer to have proper substrate in my Avic enclosures in case they came down to drink or hunt or whatever but I don't think lack of substrate would be all that bad.

The tarantula keepers guide (i'm assuming that's what TKG is) also suggested that they needed high humidity so i wonder if maybe it wasn't just that they suggested no substrate.

 

[PidderPeets]

Although I personally would hesitate to not use any substrate at all (I personally wouldn't use coconut bark either, even though it shouldn't be an issue and I was even one of the people that said it was fine in that thread), I don't think the lack of substrate would be much of an issue. But ONLY for this Genus and the few others that are truly arboreal.

I do think that a big part of it depends on the individual spider though. Of my tarantulas, I have three that fit into the fully arboreal category: an AF A. avicularia, a juvie C. versicolor, and a A. purpurea sling. Of all of them, I think only the A. avic would be okay without substrate. The purpurea likes to incorporate substrate into it's webbing, and the versicolor has shown his willingness to jump with no regards to what's below him, so I feel these would both benefit from the addition of substrate.

But as for my A. avic, she doesn’t utilize the substrate in any way, and she isn't prone to jumping. She does however, have a relatively poor prey drive, and it often takes her a while to find her prey. I've been considering rehousing her into something slightly larger, but I don't think I'd be able to push myself to completely leave out substrate.

Long story, short: I think it's acceptable to use poor substrate or none at all for the few fully arbreal species there are, as long as their husbandry needs are being met and there's consideration for the individual spider's personality.

 

[Pseudo]

It depends on development and the tarantula itself. A mature male is going to be all over the sides, ceiling, and ground. Sometimes they may fall, though rarely. It is better to have some cushioning than none at all.

 

[JoshDM020]

It is better to have some cushioning than none at all.

This is true, lack of substrate would increase fall hazard. Thanks for pointing that out, i hadnt thought of it.