A. chalcodes color morph?

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

I have not seen one of this A. chalcodes since the late 80's early 90's. I recently got this female yesterday and I have been looking for one of this for a long time. The whole body and legs are one solid color, with the acception of the abdomen. Does anyone have a A. chalcodes that looks like this one? And she is not in premolt and her colors are not faded. I would like to hear people's comment on this. The A. chalcodes that are in the market are different than this one. So I also will ask is this a color morph or a different sp? And like I said before I have seen one like this before and that time it was also called A. chalcodes. Here is a picture of her. Anyone please put pictures up to compare, thanks for looking.



Jose
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

 

[grayzone]

that thing looks nothing like the A chalcodes i owned. Very interesting. That thing (whichever sp. of Aphonopelma it actually is) **COULD** just be colored that way because it is a very old and sunbleached specimin? Just my initial guess at coloration alone

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Well here is a picture of the A. chalcodes that is been sold in today's market. Big difference in the two A. chalcodes.

 

[Legion09]

This is my A. chalcodes. Locally captured in the Tucson region (Where I live). I believe this to be the actual chalcodes.

However, there are sooooo many different species of Aphonopelma in the southwest deserts that it's likely they intermingle regionally and genetically. Sometimes it's good to know where it (or it's parents) came from.

I bred mine with another wild caught specimen, pictured below.

I would almost just call mine, Aphonopelma sp. Tucson.

 

[AzJohn]

The problem with AZ aphonopelma is that almost any desert tarantula collected in AZ could be called chalcodes. That tarantula lacks the two toned legs that you see in most chalcodes. The whole genus is a mess and needs to be sorted out.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

The problem with AZ aphonopelma is that almost any desert tarantula collected in AZ could be called chalcodes. That tarantula lacks the two toned legs that you see in most chalcodes. The whole genus is a mess and needs to be sorted out.

. I have another tarantula that it is been sold as chalcodes in today's market take a look at the photo. Now I did some research on this species the only thing I came up with are pictures. The first thing I found when I did a google search on Aphonopelma chalcodes it takes me to a list of that name when I just barely start to stroll down the list it shows images of three chalcodes the one in the middle is looks like the one female that I originally posted a picture of. The second thing is I wanted to see what Dave Grimm from TheInvertSHop had for sale, I notice that he has chalcodes for sale I started to look at the photo that he put up on his website. That photo is the exact looking female chalcodes that I have! So I e-mailed Dave and spoke with him about it he also thinks that this is the real chalcodes and he also mention where it came from, he said he got her on a German import. I found that interesting cause the person that gave me the female that I own also came on a German import. So my beleif is, that the chalcodes from my first post are from parts of Mexico, but it is my opinion on this it is what I believe wether it is true or not I don't know? Here is another different chalcodes that it is been sold in today's market I just got her about week ago. Where it was collected don't know? I have to agree with AzJohn on this someone has to get this whole Genus straighting out!!!


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Note: Dave Grimm is selling chalcodes but the babies did not come from the female that he had on his website photo. He said the babies came from somewhere else. I don't want members on Arachnoboards start thinking that his babies are going to look like the female that I own. Or that he use to own.


Jose
www.exoskeltoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com

 

[Stan Schultz]

I have not seen one of this A. chalcodes since the late 80's early 90's. I recently got this female yesterday and I have been looking for one of this for a long time. The whole body and legs are one solid color, with the acception of the abdomen. Does anyone have a A. chalcodes that looks like this one? And she is not in premolt and her colors are not faded. I would like to hear people's comment on this. The A. chalcodes that are in the market are different than this one. So I also will ask is this a color morph or a different sp? And like I said before I have seen one like this before and that time it was also called A. chalcodes. Here is a picture of her. Anyone please put pictures up to compare, thanks for looking. ...

Dr. Brent Hendrixson of Millsaps College in Jackson, MS has been studying North American Aphonopelma for 5 years or more now. Several years ago (summer, 2009?) he presented a lecture at the ATS conference as a report on his progress so far.

One of the most striking things that came out of that lecture was that A. chalcodes, much to everyone's astonishment, actually comes in at least two color forms, one in the classic mode as some of your photos show, but also another brownish one that looks for all the world like a "hentzi-esque" species.

Further, he displayed a series of several (perhaps 5 or 6?) photos, all of which closely resembled A. chalcodes, BUT NONE OF THEM WERE! It seems that several other species also have adopted the chalcodes color plan.

But, none of this should come as a huge shock because we've had A. moderatum for decades, and if you stand back and look at them, they too "sort of" resemble a diminutive A. chalcodes! (Click or right-click the thumbnail to see a larger image.)



Lastly, a year ago I visited Brent in his lab, and he told me that of the 54 or so accepted, nominal species of N. American Aphonopelma, his research has cut the true number back to slightly more than 2 dozen actual species, and his lab has identified and is in the process of describing possible another half dozen. In the end, there would be fewer than 3 dozen valid species. All others would be synonyms or nomina nuda!

The bottom line to my little dissertation is that what species you think you have, and what species you really do have are up for grabs until Brent publishes his magnum opus. And, at that point everything that we thought we knew about N. American Aphonopelma will likely be wrong. For the sake of current discussion, go ahead and assume that your IDs are correct, but always preface the scientific name with putatively because we really don't know what we're talking about at this point.


Enjoy your little 8-legged WHAT THE **** IS THAT?

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Dr. Brent Hendrixson of Millsaps College in Jackson, MS has been studying North American Aphonopelma for 5 years or more now. Several years ago (summer, 2009?) he presented a lecture at the ATS conference as a report on his progress so far.

One of the most striking things that came out of that lecture was that A. chalcodes, much to everyone's astonishment, actually comes in at least two color forms, one in the classic mode as some of your photos show, but also another brownish one that looks for all the world like a "hentzi-esque" species.

Further, he displayed a series of several (perhaps 5 or 6?) photos, all of which closely resembled A. chalcodes, BUT NONE OF THEM WERE! It seems that several other species also have adopted the chalcodes color plan.

But, none of this should come as a huge shock because we've had A. moderatum for decades, and if you stand back and look at them, they too "sort of" resemble a diminutive A. chalcodes! (Click or right-click the thumbnail to see a larger image.)



Lastly, a year ago I visited Brent in his lab, and he told me that of the 54 or so accepted, nominal species of N. American Aphonopelma, his research has cut the true number back to slightly more than 2 dozen actual species, and his lab has identified and is in the process of describing possible another half dozen. In the end, there would be fewer than 3 dozen valid species. All others would be synonyms or nomina nuda!

The bottom line to my little dissertation is that what species you think you have, and what species you really do have are up for grabs until Brent publishes his magnum opus. And, at that point everything that we thought we knew about N. American Aphonopelma will likely be wrong. For the sake of current discussion, go ahead and assume that your IDs are correct, but always preface the scientific name with putatively because we really don't know what we're talking about at this point.


Enjoy your little 8-legged WHAT THE **** IS THAT?

I think that is great that someone is working on this! I showed the three different types of chalcodes that it is been sold so far. The original female chalcodes photo on my first post she came from Germany and my understanding is that they called it chalcodes so as far as I know the Germans have quite a bit of the advantage over this than we do on a lot of species so why this one called chalcodes? Who knows, Like I stated before who knows if it is true or not! I'm only going thru my experience in the hobby when I first saw this particular chalcodes back in the late 80's early 90's. And now I'm seen different types of chalcodes that are been sold. My opinion is and will be until it is scientifically proven is that the chalcodes from my original post is the real chalcodes ( Mexican blond ) if I'm wrong, I'm wrong! I have always had doubts of the ones that are been sold in today's market are the real chalcodes. Now of course they could end up been called chalcodes or something else once it is described, and also the ones that came out Germany since the names are always changing quite often on some species. For example king baboons. Payson Blonde is another that I have issues about. I use to get the Payson Blonde from the late Bryant Capiz from Arachnocentric, the ones that are been sold in today's market are not the same ones that i use to have. I know this cause I use to have quite a bit of them back in the 90's never seen them again after that. But that's another story.


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Dr. Brent Hendrixson of Millsaps College in Jackson, MS has been studying North American Aphonopelma for 5 years or more now. Several years ago (summer, 2009?) he presented a lecture at the ATS conference as a report on his progress so far.

One of the most striking things that came out of that lecture was that A. chalcodes, much to everyone's astonishment, actually comes in at least two color forms, one in the classic mode as some of your photos show, but also another brownish one that looks for all the world like a "hentzi-esque" species.

Further, he displayed a series of several (perhaps 5 or 6?) photos, all of which closely resembled A. chalcodes, BUT NONE OF THEM WERE! It seems that several other species also have adopted the chalcodes color plan.

But, none of this should come as a huge shock because we've had A. moderatum for decades, and if you stand back and look at them, they too "sort of" resemble a diminutive A. chalcodes! (Click or right-click the thumbnail to see a larger image.)



Lastly, a year ago I visited Brent in his lab, and he told me that of the 54 or so accepted, nominal species of N. American Aphonopelma, his research has cut the true number back to slightly more than 2 dozen actual species, and his lab has identified and is in the process of describing possible another half dozen. In the end, there would be fewer than 3 dozen valid species. All others would be synonyms or nomina nuda!

The bottom line to my little dissertation is that what species you think you have, and what species you really do have are up for grabs until Brent publishes his magnum opus. And, at that point everything that we thought we knew about N. American Aphonopelma will likely be wrong. For the sake of current discussion, go ahead and assume that your IDs are correct, but always preface the scientific name with putatively because we really don't know what we're talking about at this point.


Enjoy your little 8-legged WHAT THE **** IS THAT?

I forgot to mention that I did hear this just last night from Zack Valois about Dr. Brent Hendrixson working on the Aphonopelma sp. So I know this will be good to get this all cleared up with the Aphonopelma sp. in general.


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com

 

[pocock1899]

Brent has posted on his FB page that he will be back at the ATS Conference this year with an update on the Aphonopelma complex. For American tarantula enthusiasts, I think his talks are incredibly informative and pertinent. Especially if you have these spiders in your collection and ever plan on breeding them. JMO.
I'm really looking forward to it.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Brent has posted on his FB page that he will be back at the ATS Conference this year with an update on the Aphonopelma complex. For American tarantula enthusiasts, I think his talks are incredibly informative and pertinent. Especially if you have these spiders in your collection and ever plan on breeding them. JMO.
I'm really looking forward to it.

You see I just got out of the website of www.giantspiders.com when I was in there I went to the photo gallery, I looked up the A. chalcodes that he has or had and it turns out to be the same spider photo as the one that I have from my photo of my first post. I do wish someday I could go to the ATS Conference. Until than I hope someone or yourself will keep us posted. I would love to try to breed this species but I think it will be very hard to come up with a male that looks like the one that I have.


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

I was looking on Arachnoboards and found a few things that was interesting.

See post 2: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?34388-Genus-Aphonopelma/page8 This member on the boards is calling it adult female A. chalcodes

See post 3: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?34388-Genus-Aphonopelma/page21 The photo on this one can't tell if it is the same spider as mine coloration of the photo is throwing me of a bit. Possibility that could be the same?

See post 3: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?34388-Genus-Aphonopelma/page23 The member on the boards posted a couple of photos one is called chalcodes Arizona adult female the other photo is called chalcodes Mexico adult female

So my understanding is that there is to version of chalcodes by scientific name and common name. The Chalcodes from Arizona is the Arizona Blond and the chalcodes from Mexico is the Mexican Blond. But why the same scientific name? They both don't even resemble to each other at all. Once my female chalcodes from Mexico molts I will post a of the spermatheca if in fact looks the same as the chalcodes from Arizona.
Does someone know what was said at the ATS conference about the Aphonopelma sp.? Was Dr. Brent Hendrixson there?


Jose

 

[hearsemadam]

its funny because my female looked a lot different from another female that was caught on the same trip to AZ, but they are supposedly both chalcodes.

 

[Stan Schultz]

I was looking on Arachnoboards and found a few things that was interesting.
...
So my understanding is that there is to version of chalcodes by scientific name and common name. The Chalcodes from Arizona is the Arizona Blond and the chalcodes from Mexico is the Mexican Blond. But why the same scientific name? They both don't even resemble to each other at all. Once my female chalcodes from Mexico molts I will post a of the spermatheca if in fact looks the same as the chalcodes from Arizona. ...

We are now dangerously close to getting involved in another common name/scientific name controversy. I am going to try hard to avoid that.

Technically, the "official" common name for both varieties is still "desert blonde tarantula," but that list is apparently now becoming obsolete and falling into disuse.

Consider a parallel situation: The family dog. Technically, all domestic dogs belong to the same species (or rather subspecies, a topic I want to a void as well). But, we have a number of different breeds of dog, e.g., poodle, sheltie, great dane, etc. And, these are all recognizable by any number of characteristics like size, color, relative proportions, personalities, etc.

A similar situation exists in nature with any number of other organisms, e.g., the gray wolf (the family dog's far distant ancestor) actually comes in several colors. So do many plants.

And, just as we give each breed of dog and each variety of rose a specific, identifying label, it is not too far fetched for us to give each color form of a tarantula its unique identifying label. An example you may already know about is the Chilean rose tarantula (RCF, NCF, etc.). And, you already know about the differing color forms in Aphonopelma moderatum.

So, are you asking if these are all separate species? My OPINION is probably not. Colors and patterns are generally not considered sufficient justification for establishing a new species. (But, it is interesting to note that a century or more ago it apparently was sufficient justification, hence the reason for the current mess that tarantula taxonomy is now in!)

... Does someone know what was said at the ATS conference about the Aphonopelma sp.? Was Dr. Brent Hendrixson there? ...

Someone else will have to answer this one since I wasn't able to attend. Gang?

(P.S. - There is technically a difference between a "breed" and a "variety," especially "variety" in the Darwinian sense, in that a breed is only the result of selective breeding in domesticated animals whereas a "variety" (more properly "form," "morph," "subspecies," etc. in the modern parlance) is the result of natural selection out in the wild someplace. For my arguments here the differences are irrelevant, so I've ignored them.)


"The magnitude of our ignorance [about tarantulas] is staggering."
- S. A. Schultz, TKG3

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

its funny because my female looked a lot different from another female that was caught on the same trip to AZ, but they are supposedly both chalcodes.

View attachment 120630

From the looks of your photo it looks like the Aphonopelma sp. New River I also have this species right now, and they where sold as chalcodes.


Jose

---------- Post added 09-13-2013 at 01:57 PM ----------

When the time comes I will post a photo of the spermatheca of my chalcodes from Mexico, I guess will find out if it is any different from the chalcodes from Arizona. Thanks Stan for your opinion.

Jose

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

I've came across this thread http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?141818-Aphonopelma-chalcodes-mating as you can see the member (Peter Grawobitz) is from Germany. The thread that Peter posted on his first post he has two photos of a female and mature male Aphonopelma chalcodes. With the mature male it is the first time I have ever seen photos of that is described as Aphonopelma chalcodes (Mexican Blonde). As I will mention this again the female chalcodes (Mexican Blonde) I've seen in person twice in my lifetime. From my understanding the only way to get this species is out Europe/Germany.

I will include this other link made by Norsken see post #15 and post#26 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?91650-Norsken-s-Tarantulas

I use to have a a really nice photo of my female chalcodes (Mexican Blonde) I owned a few years back that was giving to me as a freebie but the photo is lost. So I'm only able to provide another photo of mine that is okay to look at.

Aphonopelma chalcodes (Mexican Blonde) Female

Now we have the Aphonopelma chalcodes (Arizona blonde)

Aphonopelma chalcodes (Arizona Blonde) Female

Here is a photo link of the mature male http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/...AKD0B7KAEC2K14DB14A7EAEF6856.jpg?m=1297138789

There are two different mature males and females that don't resemble to each other but are suppose to be chalcodes. As I also mention on a different thread between the two mature males between A. geniculata and formerly known brocklehursti.

Not to also mention Homoeomma sp. "Blue" see post #1 by Storm76 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?267774-Can-t-resist-Most-beautiful-terrestrial vs Thrixopelma lagunas http://www.thespidershop.co.uk/images/H_sp_blue_large2.jpg?osCsid=f690e00aa4b6f5ed91611170e9b8879a from my understanding is that the two mature males is what makes them to be two different species. Storm76 nice photos of your species.

So if there are species that have the similarities appearances why are Taxonomist or hobbiest still questioning some of this species as one, since the males are differently from each other? Here is a link that was started earlier this year about Homoeomma sp. "Blue" and Thrixopelma lagunas http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?271487-Has-anyone-ever-heard-of-Thrixopelma-Iagunas

Confused as hell I am???????????????

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Is everyone lost for words? Come on guys and gals wake up!