Ybyrapora diversipes vs Caribena versicolor

[viper69]

Hey @viper69, can you post some pictures of your set-up, your set-up seems simple and effective, I would like to see the differences between yours and @campj set-up, I'm looking for a fool proof way of raising these sp. from sling to adult hood, before I go out and buy any, I had a C. versicolour that croaked on me, it got stuck in it's molt, at that time, oh 10+ years ago I had no clue that I could have intervened to help the poor wee thing, thanks, it would be much appreciated.

There's nothing to post. It's like the person's I commented about except no cotton, and cork at an angle. Holes down the sides, at 12, 9, 6, and 3 of a clock face.

The secret is not making it complex, and making sure there is good air exchange.

And boina is correct, its antibacterial nature resists mold which is why cedar is used.

I'm lost, you aren't suggesting because an object has antibacterial properties that it applies to mold, which is a fungus.

 

[campj]

I can't say for sure that the cotton is necessary. I was told that the size sling I was given had potential to drown in the vial until it was a bit larger. I don't think Steve would have said that unless he'd experienced it, so I took his word for it despite knowing the Arachnoboards norm. There hasn't been slime, stink, or ugliness on it any of the times I've changed it out.

Regarding air exchange, there's plenty enough diffusion, even with just the 1/16" hole, to allow the water to evaporate out of the tube and the allow any drops of water that (intentionally or unintentionally) land on the dirt to evaporate. Neither container that I have stinks or shows any other sign of something bad going on, and they've been set up this way since early May, which in my experience is plenty of time for funk to form.

Like I said early on, this is a very unconventional method! But how many of the conventions actually gets tested? It's like the Earth is flat around here, and if you try saying it's round (with pictures as proof! haha) you get shouted down.

I think you're being a bit unfair here boina. You imply that the spiders are uncomfortable (unfounded), and that trying this method would be abusing your spiders (also unfounded). Why is that?

I'm lost, you aren't suggesting because an object has antibacterial properties that it applies to mold, which is a fungus.

Yeah, I thought of that after I posted... obviously mold isn't bacteria, but cedar most definitely resists mold. I misused the term, so antimicrobial is probably a better way of putting it.

 

[Anoplogaster]

Getting heated in here

Is there an advantage to using cedar over cork? Citing antibacterial properties sounds great. But I think one would first have to verify that cork is less advantageous due to bacterial build-up, which I don't think anyone has experienced. I'm genuinely curious, though.

And I agree, info gets passed down, and people tend to stick with the norms. But it's mostly due to consensus about what works and what doesn't. Never forget that the community on AB establishes a collective knowledge and experience level that far surpasses any single person you come across. We shouldn't discount the experiences of the folks who post regularly on here Many of them have been keeping Ts since before I was born (probably).

Also, since you already expected to get disagreements regarding your unconventional methods, be sure to keep your cool when it happens

 

[Moonohol]

I can't say for sure that the cotton is necessary. I was told that the size sling I was given had potential to drown in the vial until it was a bit larger. I don't think Steve would have said that unless he'd experienced it, so I took his word for it despite knowing the Arachnoboards norm. There hasn't been slime, stink, or ugliness on it any of the times I've changed it out.

Regarding air exchange, there's plenty enough diffusion, even with just the 1/16" hole, to allow the water to evaporate out of the tube and the allow any drops of water that (intentionally or unintentionally) land on the dirt to evaporate. Neither container that I have stinks or shows any other sign of something bad going on, and they've been set up this way since early May, which in my experience is plenty of time for funk to form.

Like I said early on, this is a very unconventional method! But how many of the conventions actually gets tested? It's like the Earth is flat around here, and if you try saying it's round (with pictures as proof! haha) you get shouted down.

I think you're being a bit unfair here boina. You imply that the spiders are uncomfortable (unfounded), and that trying this method would be abusing your spiders (also unfounded). Why is that?

They can't drown. Slings can't even break the surface tension of water.

 

[boina]

I can't say for sure that the cotton is necessary. I was told that the size sling I was given had potential to drown in the vial until it was a bit larger. I don't think Steve would have said that unless he'd experienced it, so I took his word for it despite knowing the Arachnoboards norm. There hasn't been slime, stink, or ugliness on it any of the times I've changed it out.

Regarding air exchange, there's plenty enough diffusion, even with just the 1/16" hole, to allow the water to evaporate out of the tube and the allow any drops of water that (intentionally or unintentionally) land on the dirt to evaporate. Neither container that I have stinks or shows any other sign of something bad going on, and they've been set up this way since early May, which in my experience is plenty of time for funk to form.

Like I said early on, this is a very unconventional method! But how many of the conventions actually gets tested? It's like the Earth is flat around here, and if you try saying it's round (with pictures as proof! haha) you get shouted down.

I think you're being a bit unfair here boina. You imply that the spiders are uncomfortable (unfounded), and that trying this method would be abusing your spiders (also unfounded). Why is that?

You need to tag me if you want an answer It's pure chance that I looked in here again.

Uncomfortable? Well I'm uncomfortable with that word with regard to spiders. It's such a subjective word. I like pure facts better.

Again: If you want to use cotton balls - use them and good luck to you, I won't. Cedar: same.

Restricted air flow: No way. Restricted air flow alway carries the risk of a build up of bacteria and fungus - if they get in they won't get out again - simple physics. Often they don't get in significant amounts and everything is fine. Once they do get in they stay in, multiply and cause problems. The paradigm of restricted air flow to keep humidity in has killed e.g. Avics and Tree Boas by the 100s. Restricted air flow even kills cows, and without the help of humidity. You know how a modern cow shed may look? Just a roof and no walls. Maximum air flow all year round. Reduces the need of antibiotics to nearly zero. ALL the farmers around here are reconstructing their sheds to maximize air flow. This is science, not something that someone told me.

 

[viper69]

I can't say no T has never drowned or never will in captivity. BUT, what I find extremely funny/ironic is the animal (aside from geckos) that can stick to virtually anything needs protection from drowning. Some frogs, sure...a T, I don't think so, but maybe I'm running wild and dangerous here.

I did have a small Avic go head first straight into water, its entire body, minus book lungs, in the water taking a long deep drink. All that held back were 4 legs, 2 on each side. But listen, if it makes you feel better etc, go for it, it's your T!

 

[campj]

Cork would work, it's just harder to break into small pieces. I personally don't use it for anything though because it's more money than I like to spend.

So the key word in your second paragraph is EXPERIENCE. Plenty of people here have plenty of experience, and we can all learn a thing or two from each other. The problem I have is when people (from the guy whose first spider is in the mail to some who have been tarantula owners for decades) start giving advice from inexperience instead of saying, "I don't know, let's test it." If you've been around AB for any length of time, you know this is a common occurrence.

I'm totally composed, what makes you think I'm losing my cool?

 

[viper69]

This is science

Blasphemy! If Jesus didn't tell me, well it must be FAKE NEWS, to quote the greatest and smartest leader of all time ever!

I don't know, let's test it."

I hear ya there. Also tied into that though are the replies of "stop experimenting" "cruelty" etc etc. Not saying you are doing this. Plus, I think there's more incentive to do what is known rather than experiment and burn 45$ on shipping and 15-100$ on a sling only to repeat again.


As someone who had problems with Avics on the first 3 times, I can say that even 5 months doesn't give one an idea if the T is thriving. Recently, I had an AF geroldi, that died out of the blue once. THAT I was not happy about, and she was "thriving" by all accounts.

 

[Anoplogaster]

It's like the Earth is flat around here, and if you try saying it's round (with pictures as proof! haha) you get shouted down.

I'm totally composed, what makes you think I'm losing my cool?

Btw, I'd hardly consider a picture of a spider in an enclosure as "proof" that it works.

 

[campj]

I hear ya there. Also tied into that though are the replies of "stop experimenting" "cruelty" etc etc. Not saying you are doing this. Plus, I think there's more incentive to do what is known rather than experiment and burn 45$ on shipping and 15-100$ on a sling only to repeat again.


As someone who had problems with Avics on the first 3 times, I can say that even 5 months doesn't give one an idea if the T is thriving. Recently, I had an AF geroldi, that died out of the blue once. THAT I was not happy about, and she was "thriving" by all accounts.

Sure, That's why I brought it up to Cold Blood (I'm pretty certain he breeds avics) and you (not sure how many you have and keep, but maybe enough to try this out). If someone has their first avic, or if someone's funds are tight, maybe they don't want to try this out. I trust Steve, and I know he's not going to mislead me on husbandry, so I dove right in. I think more people should try it, as Steve reported a dramatic drop in avic sling losses with his breeding projects. If a new method can be tested by multiple keepers/breeders and prove to be more successful and easier for the average keeper to set up and maintain, why not make progress? I'll keep posting the status of my spiders as time goes by, but as said, I don't anticipate getting more avics (or their cousins) because I'm just not into them.

Anoplogaster, the flat Earth quote certainly isn't me getting heated... you could call it more a slow smolder that has been with me for years haha.

I agree about a spider in a picture not being proof, but it's backed by Steve's experience and the fact that half the ones I had died but the remaining two are now thriving. Again, I'd like to see more people do it, and I'm excited to see how mine fare in the coming months.

 

[Venom1080]

This experiment is not proving anything we don't already know, besides cedar not being as bad for T's as we think.

I just don't see the point of any of the set up.

 

[viper69]

Sure, That's why I brought it up to Cold Blood (I'm pretty certain he breeds avics) and you (not sure how many you have and keep, but maybe enough to try this out). If someone has their first avic, or if someone's funds are tight, maybe they don't want to try this out. I trust Steve, and I know he's not going to mislead me on husbandry, so I dove right in. I think more people should try it, as Steve reported a dramatic drop in avic sling losses with his breeding projects. If a new method can be tested by multiple keepers/breeders and prove to be more successful and easier for the average keeper to set up and maintain, why not make progress? I'll keep posting the status of my spiders as time goes by, but as said, I don't anticipate getting more avics (or their cousins) because I'm just not into them.

Anoplogaster, the flat Earth quote certainly isn't me getting heated... you could call it more a slow smolder that has been with me for years haha.

I agree about a spider in a picture not being proof, but it's backed by Steve's experience and the fact that half the ones I had died but the remaining two are now thriving. Again, I'd like to see more people do it, and I'm excited to see how mine fare in the coming months.

CB has bred A. avic, I have 3 of his slings. If it wasn't for me, he wouldn't own any Avics!

Right now my Avic diversity is low. I usually have 5-10 different localities at any given time. CEC has more than me, and he breeds them too. I just haven't been able to breed due to a variety of reasons, mostly time.

Keep posting status for sure.

 

[campj]

Of course it can all be avoided at much more comfort for the spider...

Uncomfortable? Well I'm uncomfortable with that word with regard to spiders. It's such a subjective word. I like pure facts better.

Again: If you want to use cotton balls - use them and good luck to you, I won't. Cedar: same.

Restricted air flow: No way. Restricted air flow alway carries the risk of a build up of bacteria and fungus - if they get in they won't get out again - simple physics. Often they don't get in significant amounts and everything is fine. Once they do get in they stay in, multiply and cause problems. The paradigm of restricted air flow to keep humidity in has killed e.g. Avics and Tree Boas by the 100s. Restricted air flow even kills cows, and without the help of humidity. You know how a modern cow shed may look? Just a roof and no walls. Maximum air flow all year round. Reduces the need of antibiotics to nearly zero. ALL the farmers around here are reconstructing their sheds to maximize air flow. This is science, not something that someone told me.

The 1/16" hole provides enough air exchange for the container to stay fresh, because all that's necessary is diffusion. Steve helped break the concept down to me by relating it to meteorology, and he's totally correct: the single small hole in the lid is essentially forcing a pressure gradient between the inside of the vial and the air outside... CO2 and O2 molecules are exchanged freely, possibly even forced through (as in a tightened pressure gradient causing high winds, or cold air forcing its way through a valley flanked by two mountains), and everything stays fresh.

It was asked what the point of doing this is. Avic spiderling death rates have a reputation of being high. The only answer to this dilemma has been "moar ventilation!" This isn't an easily repeated process because it's vague, and it doesn't necessarily work (the healthiest of my diversipes died despite more than enough ventilation, and a supply of water... in fact, I think it became dehydrated somehow, and with me living in high desert Idaho, the ventilation may have been a contributing factor). The new process is so far easily repeatable with set parameters (50 dram vial, essentially dry substrate, 1/16" hole in lid). I'm sure with enough trial and error, the optimum amount of substrate could be dialed in, the optimum type and size of water vial could be narrowed down, etc. This could become a process that ANYONE who can follow simple instructions and has access to the materials can repeat, and confidently raise avic slings.

Do folks have to follow it? Of course not. So why do some feel the need to throw in so much opposition? Just to be heard? On the other hand, if people would like to constructively contribute, I think it could help everyone in the long run. Anyway, I think I've said all I care to. I'll let the progress of my spiders do the talking for me, one way or the other.

 

[mconnachan]

There's nothing to post. It's like the person's I commented about except no cotton, and cork at an angle. Holes down the sides, at 12, 9, 6, and 3 of a clock face.

The secret is not making it complex, and making sure there is good air exchange.

Yeah that's what I thought, I had one death a long time ago with a C. versicolour, I think I let the enclosure become too wet, it didn't manage to complete its molt, at that time I didn't know I could have helped. I'll be sure to provide the necessary ventilation and a small water dish. Cheers.

 

[boina]

The 1/16" hole provides enough air exchange for the container to stay fresh, because all that's necessary is diffusion. Steve helped break the concept down to me by relating it to meteorology, and he's totally correct: the single small hole in the lid is essentially forcing a pressure gradient between the inside of the vial and the air outside... CO2 and O2 molecules are exchanged freely, possibly even forced through (as in a tightened pressure gradient causing high winds, or cold air forcing its way through a valley flanked by two mountains), and everything stays fresh.

I wasn't going to respond to this any more because @campj is right, this thread has really run its course, but since it gets referenced I better do address the rather misunderstood science here. A hole (or a valley between mountains) does not create (or force) a pressure gradient. Any obstruction can amplify a pre-existing pressure gradient, but it does not create one. I.e. A high pressure zone moves in on one side of the mountain range, gets trapped, and forces its way through the valley, creating high winds. But first there needs to be said high pressure zone, or any kind of pressure difference. So: barring high pressure zones, low pressure zones, storm fronts or any other metereologican phenomena in your spider room the air exchange through that hole is as minimal as the hole.

 

[campj]

You definitely don't need two different airmasses to experience winds funneling through a valley, but that's besides the point because there are two airmasses at work in this setup: the airmass inside the vial (humid and less dense air), and the airmass inside the keeper's home (in my case dry, dense air... before it's said that this won't work in a humid environment though, let me point out that Steve lives in the humid NE US). I also imagine that the temperature inside the vial is at least slightly warmer than outside, but haven't checked. So the "airmass" inside the vial is constantly trying to equalize with the outside environs which forces air exchange keeping everything fresh and allowing diffusion. At the same time, a humid environment is created for the sling.

 

[Andrea82]

I'm not getting into the argument why one set up is better than the other, there's been enough on that already.
@campj
For your experiment to be an experiment, there are too many factors involved. If you would like to actually experiment, you'd have to have a more diverse group, or maybe several groups even. One would be the 'ab-standard' set up, and the other the 'steve-setup'. But you would also need to gradually changes every factor involved. More/less humidity, more less ventilation, cedar or corkbark. Feeding more or less, try it on different sizes of Avics/Caribena/Ybyrapora.
The 'ab-method' was kind of the outcome of such 'accidental experiments'. People tried more or less from all factors to see which worked the best. For your theory to be a succes, the experience of one man and you just isn't enough. It could be working for him because he lives in a dry climate, or a wet climate. High temps or lower.

I don't mind new ideas and theories. But there should be sufficient testing and experimenting done for a theory to be labelled 'succesful'.
That being said, it would be nice to report your proceedings to get to see how it goes

Not until more people have succesfully tried it will I be housing my spiders differently. I don't like risking my spiders, and rather err on the side of caution

 

[campj]

Haha I'm not even sure what that emoji is for. Does anyone really know?

Anyway, keeping them this way isn't an experiment for me, it's just how I'm keeping them and will be keeping them from now on. Steve did the experimenting with regards to how to optimally set things up and he narrowed it down to what I've posted. The real experiment now is whether or not other people (as long as they can actually follow the instructions) can keep them this way successfully.

(I have to admit, in a way this thread (which I hijacked, sorry @Jellyfish Jenni) was a social experiment for me... now just imagine maniacal laughter or something)

 

[Jellyfish Jenni]

(I have to admit, in a way this thread (which I hijacked, sorry @Jellyfish Jenni) was a social experiment for me... now just imagine maniacal laughter or something)

That's ok! Hijack away, discussion is important and a good way to read about many different ways people are keeping their species. After discussing it previously, I decided to not get into keeping avics or arboreal species for the time being.

 

[Justin Lacas]

Anyway, keeping them this way isn't an experiment for me, it's just how I'm keeping them and will be keeping them from now on.

I just read the entire thread and would like to hear how things turned out for your slings. I assume they thrived and are MM / MF now. Can you share any more takeaways from how things went on from few years ago when you started this setup until today, it will be greatly appreciated as people like me who have just started getting into the hobby can benefit for sure.