Will the US front catch up with the European front of the hobby?

[Arthroverts]

Hey all, I recently stumbled across a German millipede forum (use Google Translate if you don't read German), and I am totally blown away by what our European friends are doing. I won't talk about the fact that they/you can get all these AMAZING exotic species, but rather the enclosures and propagation techniques. I mean, many of these setups are planted and sprouting loads of shrubs, saplings, and even fungi, and then when the substrate changes are done the millipedes number into the hundreds. I can't remember the last time I've seen a US keeper show us hundreds of captive bred millipedes in a bin from one single enclosure aside from maybe the great @Elytra and Antenna and @SDCPs (or maybe the others just aren't sharing their photos), but many of these European enthusiasts have trouble with simply having too many millipedes. Not only that, but they are producing en masse species said to be difficult to even keep alive in captivity, such as the likes of Telodeinopus aoutii, Coromus vittatus vittatus, Rhopalomeris sp., and Centrobolus sp.! I then look over and see many US enthusiasts struggling with seemingly bulletproof beginner species here in the US (although unfortunately it appears many of these specimens are wild caught).

Which brings me to my question. Putting aside differences in species available, will the US front of the hobby ever catch up with our friends over in Europe? Will US breeders finally discover the techniques our German and other European friends use to so successfully breed such a wide range of millipedes? I know I am actively trying to match their/your success, but serious deficits in supplies (I am envious of those who can just go and collect wood/leaves in their backyards) leave me groping in the dark.
Can anybody help lend an answer or is wanting to shoot for the millipede-keeping stars? I've seen a few on here...

Sorry if this is coming across the wrong way and the answer is staring me in the face, but I am seriously at loss as to why so many people here in the US have struggles with millipedes, some of the easiest creatures to keep in the hobby.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[MasterOogway]

Vivariums aren't hard to do; I've noticed on this forum in particular however people are pretty opposed or not interested in them for a variety of reasons (mostly wrong ones, IMHO). I think most things benefit from being in a planted viv of whatever biome they happen to call home, but that's just me. The Europeans have just been doing vivs longer than we have, so they've got the system down pretty well; that and they DO have a much wider variety of species to work with and usually less restrictive importation laws. Also, I suspect it's just a more popular hobby over there, per capita, so there's a lot more general husbandry information there. Sometimes I do get jealous of their species, but I think most of our 'advanced hobbyists' over here are doing things just as well most of the time. I'm no millipede guru, but in most of my other animal keeping hobbies the good US keepers are on par with their European counterparts.

 

[RTTB]

Access to more species-Yes. More advanced husbandry techniques-No.

 

[Arthroverts]

Vivariums aren't hard to do; I've noticed on this forum in particular however people are pretty opposed or not interested in them for a variety of reasons (mostly wrong ones, IMHO). I think most things benefit from being in a planted viv of whatever biome they happen to call home, but that's just me. The Europeans have just been doing vivs longer than we have, so they've got the system down pretty well; that and they DO have a much wider variety of species to work with and usually less restrictive importation laws. Also, I suspect it's just a more popular hobby over there, per capita, so there's a lot more general husbandry information there. Sometimes I do get jealous of their species, but I think most of our 'advanced hobbyists' over here are doing things just as well most of the time. I'm no millipede guru, but in most of my other animal keeping hobbies the good US keepers are on par with their European counterparts.

I agree; you just put my jumbled thoughts into a coherent post, many thanks!
Now that I think about it, maybe it's because we just have less millipede enthusiasts, like you said. Most of the people on here that are in the US with millipedes are just keeping a few (oftentimes all of the same sex); there are very few serious millipede breeders, and that may also have something to do with less demand, which may be caused by the lack of large, colorful species, which is likely why there are more European enthusiasts, which can then infer that US invertebrate laws are not conducive to our purposes, which may entail...
And I lost it. Another reason for me to get that permit.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[mantisfan101]

I'm gonna be honest, but with all the USDA restrictions and jurisdictions in place, the chances are extremely slim, or at the least, it's going to take a very long time.

 

[Nicholas Rothstein]

Here I am sitting in my coconut hut wondering when we will catch up with the U.S. mainland...

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

I'm not going to say there aren't some great German breeders (I am part German) but gathering eggs from wild-caught, mature, mated females is super duper easy. If you're talking about the beginner enthusiast's ability to kill pets on accident, it might be the same anywhere you go. If everybody had a green thumb all the greenhouses would be out of business.

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

I'm gonna be honest, but with all the USDA restrictions and jurisdictions in place, the chances are extremely slim, or at the least, it's going to take a very long time.

My exotic millipede permits were some of the easiest for me to obtain.

 

[mantisfan101]

My exotic millipede permits were some of the easiest for me to obtain.

Did you just pay a fine? No containment facility?

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

Did you just pay a fine? No containment facility?

PPQ 526 permits are free. I do not have a containment facility, so nope.

 

[mantisfan101]

PPQ 526 permits are free. I do not have a containment facility, so nope.

Well I guess it’s time I finally get an AGB. Do you have the website/link where I can sign up? Also, how long is it valid for?

 

[Arthroverts]

I'm not going to say there aren't some great German breeders (I am part German) but gathering eggs from wild-caught, mature, mated females is super duper easy. If you're talking about the beginner enthusiast's ability to kill pets on accident, it might be the same anywhere you go. If everybody had a green thumb all the greenhouses would be out of business.

Most of the specimens I saw produced on there were captive born and bred. Although you are right, in both arguments. However, it seems that I see more people here in the US struggling with keeping easy species alive. Maybe I just don't see European's struggles, but it appears as of now that a lot of us in the US are behind (and not necessarily because we have less species available).

Well I guess it’s time I finally get an AGB. Do you have the website/link where I can sign up? Also, how long is it valid for?

See here. I believe they are issued for 3 years, and you can extend it at the end of those three years for as long as you need to. I am starting to think that more of us should get the permits so that more species can make their way into the hobby legally. Not just for millipedes, but other invertebrate groups as well. I'm tired of watching brown-boxers have all the fun.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[mantisfan101]

Most of the specimens I saw produced on there were captive born and bred. Although you are right, in both arguments. However, it seems that I see more people here in the US struggling with keeping easy species alive. Maybe I just don't see European's struggles, but it appears as of now that a lot of us in the US are behind (and not necessarily because we have less species available).



See here. I believe they are issued for 3 years, and you can extend it at the end of those three years for as long as you need to. I am starting to think that more of us should get the permits so that more species can make their way into the hobby legally. Not just for millipedes, but other invertebrate groups as well. I'm tired of watching brown-boxers have all the fun.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

Is it the PPQ 526?

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

Well I guess it’s time I finally get an AGB. Do you have the website/link where I can sign up? Also, how long is it valid for?

@Arthroverts beat me to the link. The permit is valid for three years, and you can renew it after that. Unless you violate the permit conditions (you agree to these when the permit is being processed), there should be no problems in continuing the validity of the permit. AGBs are weird. Supposedly, there are agricultural risks to them, but the USDA has even issued commercial biological supply permits for this species, which allow them to be sold to non-permit-holders. It seems that a problem with breeding is keeping them rare in the hobby.

Is it the PPQ 526?

Yes, the PPQ 526 is the one for "plant pests."

 

[mantisfan101]

Nice! So all I gotta do is hand in my paperwork and wait for the approval? Also, how do I determine which species I am allowed to keep?

 

[Arthroverts]

You have to apply for the species you want to keep. For example, if you just want to keep AGBs, you only put that species on the permit. Check out the permitting info in the link above, and it should tell you all that you need to know and do, as well as give you the form(s) that needs to filled out.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

Nice! So all I gotta do is hand in my paperwork and wait for the approval? Also, how do I determine which species I am allowed to keep?

I would recommend going the eAuthentication route. It has been much easier. The USDA should make it quite clear if there is a species that you cannot keep. When one of the species on my application was denied, I received a clear notification that I was not allowed to own it.

 

[AuroraLights]

Hey all, I recently stumbled across a German millipede forum (use Google Translate if you don't read German), and I am totally blown away by what our European friends are doing. I won't talk about the fact that they/you can get all these AMAZING exotic species, but rather the enclosures and propagation techniques. I mean, many of these setups are planted and sprouting loads of shrubs, saplings, and even fungi ...

I totally know what you mean, I found that forum a while ago and some of their enclosures are stunning! They were the main inspiration for moving my millipedes into a more bioactive set-up, but so far I've only managed moss- I think I have a ways to go yet.

Not only that, but they are producing en masse species said to be difficult to even keep alive in captivity, such as the likes of Telodeinopus aoutii, Coromus vittatus vittatus, Rhopalomeris sp., and Centrobolus sp.!

I'm new to the hobby myself but this is just an observation I made when I was researching care requirements and I thought it might be relevant here:
If you read almost any American caresheet they will recommend not using any supplemental heating for millipedes, even tropical species, which is correct if you live in the USA where average room temperatures are 20 to 22 °C (68 to 72 °F). However, here in the UK normal room temperature is more like 18°C (64°F) and can get even lower than that in some houses during the winter, so most keepers here (and I believe possibly in the rest of Europe?) do use supplemental heating. And since we're already going to the trouble of specially heating our tanks we usually aim for slightly higher temps that more closely resemble the millipedes' tropical habitats. 24-25°C (75-77°F) is about average but I've heard of some people letting their tanks get up to 29°C (84°F) or so. So even though our climate and our homes are colder than yours, our millipede tanks are actually warmer! I know it's only a few degrees but that might be enough to make a difference to the breeding rate of some species. In fact, now that I think about it, one breeder I know has had success with T. aoutii recommends keeping them at 22-28°C (72-82°F), so there might be something in it. Anyway, that's just something I thought might be worth considering, don't know what you guys think.

 

[Arthroverts]

@AuroraLights, interesting theory. At the same time, the United States is a very large country, so room temperature will vary significantly throughout, depending on, say, someone in Ohio with millipedes as opposed to someone in Florida. But you are correct, supplemental heat is often not recommended for millipedes here.

Just out of curiosity, what is your substrate made out of by the way?

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[AuroraLights]

@AuroraLights, interesting theory. At the same time, the United States is a very large country, so room temperature will vary significantly throughout, depending on, say, someone in Ohio with millipedes as opposed to someone in Florida. But you are correct, supplemental heat is often not recommended for millipedes here.

Just out of curiosity, what is your substrate made out of by the way?

Thanks,

Arthroverts

Ah yes, sometimes I forget your country is like a hundred times larger than this tiny island!
My substrate is made up very similarly to other people's on here: it's just forest humus, old leaves and white rotten wood with a bit of sand and calcium powder. (Actually my current mix has a bit more sand than I'd ideally like because I didn't measure it like I should have done. Oh well, you live and learn.) Some people use peat moss, compost or organic topsoil as well. The only difference between European and American substrate recipes that I've seen is that a higher proportion of people here seem to avoid coir. That being said, there are some people who do include coir in their mix and don't seem to have major problems, so I don't think that could be causing much difference.