Why this kind of thing is bad for us all.

[Code Monkey]

Re: Yes........

Originally posted by minax
I wonder what they have to prove?:? And would everyone react the same if they were bitten?

First question answer: nothing. When a genuinely experienced keeper handles a known difficult species the reasons they're doing it are theirs and not your place to judge. Now, while I'm sure it's happened more than this once, the only handling bite I can think of reading about by an experienced keeper is Darrin's pokie bite last winter when in the early AM he was trying to check out some features on their ventral side and wasn't as careful as he should have been - and he is the first person to say that he was stupid as stupid can be. As a rule, when a genuinely experienced keeper handles a T, they know the T, they know the T's moods and signs, and whatever goes on, they don't get bit 2X in 2 weeks by medically significant species because they would know that the first bite meant they weren't as experienced as they thought they were and re-evaluate what it was they were doing in the close vicinity of the Ts.

Second question answer: nothing. Bite reports pop up periodically, have you EVER seen any sort of fall out to a genuine bite report? I think everyone realises it can happen to the best of us, and most bites seem to be the lapse of judgment while doing tank maintenance, not handling bites (which, fwiw, is what the first bite that Steve got nailed by allegedly was, a maintenance bite, we have no info on the 2nd alleged bite). But, again, no one that I know of has been bit for no "good" reason 2X in 2 weeks and there's why this case gets critiqued.

I don't know, I keep seeing this concern for why *this* case gets critiqued, and I have to ask *why* the concern? If he had been in here over the past couple of months making frequent immature posts and mentioning his passion for homemade explosives and then had given us tales of blowing his fingertips off 2X in 2 weeks I don't think the concern would be there from you guys, you'd be as critical as anyone else in these threads.

Whether 100% true, or 100% made up for attention, there is nothing about this series of bite reports that shouldn't be drawing criticism, whether well meaning concern for Steve's health, or the more malevolent critique of whether he was even bit in the first place. It's got warning signs and danger flags all of over it for Steve, for the hobby at large, for the dealer(s) that Steve got his Ts from, for T owners in Ohio, etc.

 

[deifiler]

Re: Re: Yes........

Originally posted by Code Monkey
First question answer: nothing. When a genuinely experienced keeper handles a known difficult species the reasons they're doing it are theirs and not your place to judge

What exactly defines an experienced keeper though? Fair enough with the "know your spiders body language" but a spider can't be 'tamed' and controlled in such ways that would guarantee perfect behaviour. I'd say the term 'tame' is a very loose one, 'tolerable' would probably be a more suitable word to be honest. If they are bitten whilst handling such species, is their label of 'experienced' to be taken away? Fair enough that you'd expect them to learn from a first mistake (In steves case not to put your hand in a tank, underneath where the spider is perched)

One could use the defense case of the arboreal and terrestrial styles though. However, if this was the case, I fully aggree with you that he does indeed lack the sufficient 'experience' to have such spiders that BOTH have different life styles and conditions. Perhaps this is the area we should be questioning; why he got owned by two spiders that as far as tarantula lifestyles go are complete opposites.

Yeah, as for my "it's none of you guys business what he does" comment earlier, that was kinda moronic and ignorant of me, I'll readily admit my fault on that one. Especially with him 'declaring' it, so apologies for that. After reading these posts I understand your points and everything, I was just a bit miffed at how the majority jumped in to slag off what appeared as an 'immature kid' for keeping such spiders.

Thanks for your detailed post in regards to mine though MrDeranged, it's most appreciated that you took the time to both answer and question the points that I made

From what I've read, I do think that "Poecilotheria" is perhaps in the hobby for entirely the wrong reasons, but in a sense tarantulas would suit him better than a doberman or pitbull

Hope I havn't offended any of you with my original post, and apologies if I have

 

[Code Monkey]

Re: Re: Re: Yes........

Originally posted by deifiler
What exactly defines an experienced keeper though? Fair enough with the "know your spiders body language" but a spider can't be 'tamed' and controlled in such ways that would guarantee perfect behaviour. I'd say the term 'tame' is a very loose one, 'tolerable' would probably be a more suitable word to be honest. If they are bitten whilst handling such species, is their label of 'experienced' to be taken away?

No, they can't be tamed, but I've seen people who can handle things that I would never dare get anywhere within 6 inches of its fangs. Also, I'm not sure why you and others keep raising this issue of "taking away" the label of experienced. How can you take away experience, it is just that, experience. And if someone is actually experienced, they won't be bitten by an H. maculata and an H. gigas in the space of 2 weeks unless they're a dealer who has to sort through a gargantuan shipment of unlabeled spiders and being very unlucky.

Part of the label 'experienced' means you know what you can and can't mess with. I've kept and been around Ts of different varieties for about 20 years. I am only now getting up the cojones to start personally keeping some of the more defensive and medically significant species (starting with my P. murinus and H. maculata late last summer). I know that I am a long way off, if ever, from handling anything more defensive than one of my Avicularia or Brachypelma. I use tongs to get food remains and water dishes from anyone I have any doubts about where they are in the tank and what their mood is. When transferring feistier Ts I use a long paint brush for manipulation and do so in the middle of an open room so they've got plenty of room to run if they want and won't feel threatened...

OTOH, if Dr. Breene wants to handle his P. regalis, he knows that spider, he knows how to calm it, and most importantly he has the grounded confidence to do it. More power to him, he's a lot more experienced than I am in that case.

 

[AudreyElizabeth]

What I want to know is, if he has a seven inch H. gigas, and that is a burrowing species, right? If he has one and allows it to burrow he'd have to be doing something pretty stupid to get bitten by a T that is buried under 4-5 inches of substrate.
Or maybe he isn't keeping it right, maybe he's not allowing it to burrow. That would piss me off enough to bite someone if I had to be in the open all the time.
Either way, the supposed bite would not have happened if he had been careful and respectful. And who in their right mind would NOT be respectful of a seven inch tarantula?:?

 

[MrT]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Yes........

Originally posted by Code Monkey


Part of the label 'experienced' means you know what you can and can't mess with... I use tongs to get food remains and water dishes from anyone I have any doubts about where they are in the tank and what their mood is. When transferring feistier Ts I use a long paint brush for manipulation and do so in the middle of an open room so they've got plenty of room to run if they want and won't feel threatened...

What more needs to be said?

Do these things and chances are you'll never get bitten. And always keep your focus on the task at hand.


Ernie

 

[arachnopunks]

Here is my take on the situation. Whether it is made up, but even moreso if it is true, sombody being bit that often by OW species is just bad for the hobby for lots of reasons:

People already have such a negative view of tarantulas anyway. It is a major step backwards in the hobby. In my years of keeping and posting on arachnid boards, I have rarely come across anyone being bitten and never twice, muchless in one month's time.

It is already hard enough for a lot of kids to convince their parents that keeping T's isn't dangerous. The reckless behavior of one individual with an exotic pet only bolsters the argument of those against keeping them.

I know there are a few people in the hobby that think kids shouldn't own T's. I happen to think that many kids are smart enough to handle it and can benefit from researching and learning about them. They can learn latin roots and have often proven to be more knowledgeable than many adults on the subject. This sort of incident can make people within the hobby less receptive to younger keepers.

I have noticed that Steve would often recommend that someone get a Pokie as a first T, which always made me wonder if he really understood or cared about getting the right T for one's level of experience. If this really did happen, I hope he is okay. If he does keep with the hobby, I hope he gets a little smarter about how he cares for his T's.


Just my 2cents

-Jill

 

[arachnopunks]

BTW....for most keepers, being "experienced" means you don't stick your hand within striking distance of a venomous OW species twice in one month!!!


-Jill

 

[Buspirone]

I'm not against "kids/teens" keeping Ts as pets as long as they have some knowledgable supervision to teach them the responsible way to do things. I think there is a serious lacking in instructions on how to manage Ts properly. We have in depth care sheets that cover the vitals for keeping the beasts but there is a serious lacking in graphic Teks dealing with doing maintainence and transferring the more aggressive species from a deli cup to a new home or transferring from a small enclosure to a large one....what kind of "tools" to have and how to properly use them. It seems like common sense but I don't think enough newbies rush out to get a good book that introduces them to the concepts in detail when they can invest that money in new acquistions and rely on the internet for their reference information and then they miss out on important little details like properly managing their pets in transfers and during maintainence,IMHO. There seems to be younger newbies who get an interest in Ts and then decide that in order to really be taken seriously by peers in the hobby they need to jump from Grammastola or Brachypelma spp. right into old world aggressive species, usually arboreals. Truthfully, I don't check peoples' profiles for ages until they say or do something monumentally stupid. When it happens then I have to look and see if its poor judgement due to youth or if its because someone has a family tree shaped like a stump whose still quite a few generations away from opposable thumbs and true bipedal locomotion.

 

[neveragain]

I kinda do believe that he got bit again. Judging by his other posts, he doesnt seem to be too careful. For example, in one post, he was saying how he WANTS to get stung by a scorpion to see if he would 'react' to it. He also said in a couple other threads how he just uses his hand to move all of his tarantulas and scorpions and everything, rather than using a paintbrush or something like that. I really dont see a point in using your hand to move them, when you know there is a chance of being bit or stung.

Now, I'm not saying that he deserved it, but he had it coming sooner or later. It just happened to be sooner, and then again only a couple weeks later.

 

[Mojo Jojo]

Ok, this guy has been selling lots of spiders on the boards. Has anyone actually bought any from him? Because I am hard pressed to believe that he even has the species that he is talking about. Or I think that he is a grown adult pretending to be a kid on this forum. Anyways, I don't trust him!

Jon

 

[Buspirone]

Originally posted by neveragain
I kinda do believe that he got bit again. Judging by his other posts, he doesnt seem to be too careful. For example, in one post, he was saying how he WANTS to get stung by a scorpion to see if he would 'react' to it. He also said in a couple other threads how he just uses his hand to move all of his tarantulas and scorpions and everything, rather than using a paintbrush or something like that. I really dont see a point in using your hand to move them, when you know there is a chance of being bit or stung.

Now, I'm not saying that he deserved it, but he had it coming sooner or later. It just happened to be sooner, and then again only a couple weeks later.

Its very common for people to develop severe allergies to venom AFTER having been exposed once or twice and by severe I mean potentially life threatening depending on the individual.

 

[minax]

Re: Re: Yes........

Originally posted by Code Monkey
First question answer: nothing. When a genuinely experienced keeper handles a known difficult species the reasons they're doing it are theirs and not your place to judge.

I think you misunderstood me a bit. I was analyzing WHY someone feels the need to handle a "hot" T on a whim, not judging them. I could care less what they do, except if the T gets injured, or falls. And Darrin handling one, for observation, is a little differant, than some people who I have seen here, who just handle them for obvious attention getting purposes. In some cases, I can totally understand. But some cases, it is a cry for attention, plain and simple, just like this kid. "Look at me, I am so brave, handling this bad T"! I say if they want something to pet, get a cat or dog. To the general public, this is a bad image to uphold.

 

[jper26]

I know he bought a couple of scorps a C.exilicauda,and a P.transvaalicus. And then like a week later was putting them up for sale because he said he needed cricket money. Which tells me couldent have a job if he cant afford crickets or never had these 2 scorps. Then in another post he said he had a connection too get Tytus species that are illigal too be expoted.

 

[Mojo Jojo]

Dude, how many kids do you know that are purchasing illegal imports?

Have you been to his house and seen his creatures?

I stand with my conviction that it is either a smart lying kid or an adult posing as a kid.

Jon

 

[jper26]

Uh I never said I believed him.

 

[TheDon]

Hmm looks like this post has become a finger pointing war and name calling. Sh!t happens and its too bad, nothing any of us says will change what some people do. I am not trying to start anything and i am not putting anyone down, its just a shame to see a board as nice as this one come to something like this.

peace

TheDon

And i saw a question about IP addresses, IP addresses will point directly to someones area and even there house.

 

[Telson]

My thoughts on the matter...

Speculation is going to run rampant until or unless Steve gets on here and posts the following thing:

Exactly how did this 2nd bite occur?

We all know there are only so many ways for it to happen...

1- If this bite occurred by simple negligence (ie, he thought it was in it's burrow and overlooked it hiding under a false plant and reached in to remove an uneaten cricket with his bare hands near said plant) then he didn't learn his lesson from the first bite and will likely not learn from this one and should not keep OW or aggressive NW T's.

2- If this bite occurred by GROSS negligence (ie, screwing with the T in a manner which he knew would piss it off, such as hoping to make it take a threat posture for a pic of his hand within striking distance of a angry T) then he has no business owning any kind of T at all due to a complete lack of maturity.

3-If this bite occurred by lack of experience and being forced into a situation he is not capable of handling (ie, he was attempting to transfer the T from its enclosure in to a box or such to sell it off and did not take the necissary precautions) then obviously he is indeed not experienced enough to be keeping OW T's and does indeed need to part with them.

4- If this bite never occurred and he is lying for attention, then he needs to seriously grow up and realize that he is *buggering* (my choice of wording was auto-removed) the very same people from whom he is seeking this attention by giving this hobby a bad name for selfish and stupid reasons.

PLEASE NOTE THAT ALL OF MY POSTS REGARDING THIS MATTER HAVE INCLUDED THE WORD *IF* REPEATEDLY.

As I've said before, I'm not judging anything or anyone until all the facts are provided that could alter my opinions in regard to this matter.

The simple fact remains however, old or young, experienced or newb, responsibility for anything that happens regarding ones T collection is squarely on their own shoulders, and public opinion regarding this hobby is extremely important not to damage in order to prevent anyone from creating the anti-tarantulas version of the PMRC.

Anything that makes T's look more dangerous than they are already percieved as being, or that leads poeple to view collectors in a bad light due to their activities regarding tarantulas is irrisponsible and does affect us ALL, whether some poeple want to admit that fact or not. Posting irrisponsible activities regarding ones T's on a public board makes it 100 times worse, but IMO doing something irrisponsible that could damage the hobbys reputation even among a couple nieghborhood friends is a slap in the face to all those who have put so much effort over the years into trying to give it a better face and gain public acceptance of it.

I, for one, do not want to have to provide documented proof of a year of experience as the responsible party in caretaking for each individual species I want to put in my collection so that I can qualify for a permit to possess them, and then pay some outragious fee to a government agency every year to retain that permit, and have to allow some government pencil pusher to come out when ever he wants to inspect my T's housing setups.

That's what is necissary for keeping venomous reptiles guys... And I believe that there are indeed already some spiders that are under such restrictions, such as the Sydney Funnelweb spider.. Let's not invite the government to give this overall hobby similar restrictions by being (or by condoning) poeple who can't keep their T's in a responsible manner. If we govern ourselves and each other then there will never be a need for the government to do it for us.

Bottom line: Assuming these bites occurred, Steve did something wrong and paid for it with a bite, THEN did not learn his lesson and got a 2nd bite, which is the defining difference between ignorance and stupidity. Ignorance is cured with knowlege gleaned from lessons... Stupidity is terminally incurable. Anyone condoning or defending stupidity in fellow arachnohobbyists will be equally responsible for it if a day comes when public opinion of this hobby results in permit requirements or outright bans on specific species.

 

[Professor T]

Less is sometimes more

I think of owning a T as more of a responsibility than a right. For example Glads Herp won't sell to you if your under 18, and won't sell to you if they don't trust your mentality. They are the sole judge of your mental health when it comes to selling venomous species. In my opinion this is a responsible policy.

Why is this a responsible policy? Because if the hobby is going to survive, we can't have the hysteria that comes from bad press. They would rather lose a sale, or lose a customer, than destroy the hobby.

In my opinion, I don't think anyone was being too harsh, or too judgemental. If we can't promote common sense from within our hobby, we will be regulated based on public fear and ignorance... the choice is ours.

I believe we have the power to control our own destiny in this hobby. To do this we have to promote education over ignorance, which includes:

1. Caution over being impetuous.

2. Common sense over greed.

3. Safety over uncertainty.

4. Ethics in sharing information over sensationalism.