Why the Coconut Fiber Taboo

Augusta97

Arachnopeon
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Apr 6, 2020
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The title more or less says it all. It seems like anytime coconut fiber is mentioned, someone will chime in with "it has no nutritional value and can cause impaction." This seems to be especially common in Facebook groups. I have seen no compelling evidence of this. The closest I've seen to that are the numerous anecdotal accounts of dead millis that get linked to coco fiber substrates, often regardless of other possible factors.

Before we really get into it I think it's important to note that I am by no means a chemist or biologist. The method I used to come to my conclusions was to compare the constituent parts of the two materials in question. This is a broad strokes comparison.

With all of that in mind, I set out to do some research on the chemical properties of coco fiber and our beloved rotting wood. What I found gave me no obvious reason to avoid coco fiber. Both materials are generally made of cellulose, hemicellulose, and lignin. Coconut fiber and wood contain near equal proportions of cellulose in their overall composition. Both are around 40%. The paper I read regarding coconut fiber also mentions a percent of it is made of pectin. This would be a red flag to me, but pectin is common in many plant cells. Notably carrots seem to be high in pectin amongst other fruits and vegetables at least. Of course both also include a wide variety of other less prevalent components, but I have neither the time nor the expertise I would need to figure out how important these are to the question (broad strokes comparison).

At the end of all of this, I the best answer I can come up with is that I think the coconut fiber-impaction correlation is an urban legend amongst milli keepers! All of the main components in wood are shared by coco fiber, so I don't see an obvious reason it would not be digestible by the millis. If anyone knows of any information I missed, please share it below. I'll include links to my reading.

A lot of this is very dense, and most of the info in the papers is not relevant to the discussion.

Chemical composition of coconut fiber (third heading, beginning of paragraph):

Chemical composition of wood (table at the top of the page): PDF one

Pectin in carrots and other fruits (table a couple pages in): PDF two
 

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BepopCola

Arachnobaron
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Oct 14, 2018
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I started the hobby using coco fiber in my substrate mixes. I'd often see a millipede walking with a coco fiber 'thread' hanging out of its butt, so I'm sure it's not entirely digestible. The threads may also aid in impaction. Compressed blocks can also leave unexpanded chunks which expand when eaten, and that may be another cause of impaction.
I used peat now, which also has no nutritional value, but it's just softer and looks better IMO. I always mix in hardwood though.

I'm no chemist or nutritionist either, but the consensus is that coco fiber and peat are void of any significant nutritional value.
Coco fiber does eventually rot, but I'm not sure if it's good for propagating the microorganisms that millipedes need.
Oak on the other is one of the most nutritional of woods good for all sorts of microorganisms.

Ignoring the impaction of it all, this seems easy to test.
 

Jack Blachura

Arachnopeon
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Jul 29, 2017
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Honestly, with all the posts you see on here and on facebook from millis dying in coco fiber substrate on here, the ones that die from impaction seem to always have it. To me it seems like millipedes who dont have coco fiber tend to have much less mysterious deaths. In my opinion, I would rather be safe than sorry :shy: (especially with the more expensive millis lol) just dont think its worth the risk of possibly killing them.
 

Augusta97

Arachnopeon
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Apr 6, 2020
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I started the hobby using coco fiber in my substrate mixes. I'd often see a millipede walking with a coco fiber 'thread' hanging out of its butt, so I'm sure it's not entirely digestible. The threads may also aid in impaction. Compressed blocks can also leave unexpanded chunks which expand when eaten, and that may be another cause of impaction.
I used peat now, which also has no nutritional value, but it's just softer and looks better IMO. I always mix in hardwood though.

I'm no chemist or nutritionist either, but the consensus is that coco fiber and peat are void of any significant nutritional value.
Coco fiber does eventually rot, but I'm not sure if it's good for propagating the microorganisms that millipedes need.
Oak on the other is one of the most nutritional of woods good for all sorts of microorganisms.

Ignoring the impaction of it all, this seems easy to test.
The part about compressed pieces expanding upon ingestion is an angle of this I hadn't considered. It certainly could have an impact on millipede health in some cases! I hadn't intended to imply that coco fiber was an adequate substitute for all hardwood in the substrate, just that I'm not sure it's a bad thing to include. Hardwood is absolutely a critical component in any substrate mix.
 

BepopCola

Arachnobaron
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I hadn't intended to imply that coco fiber was an adequate substitute for all hardwood in the substrate, just that I'm not sure it's a bad thing to include. Hardwood is absolutely a critical component in any substrate mix.
Oh, sorry! I misunderstood.
I only stopped using it in my mixes because my snails didn't like it, so I tried peat, and I ended up liking it so much more,
but as @Jack Blachura said, better safe than sorry!
 

Augusta97

Arachnopeon
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Oh, sorry! I misunderstood.
I only stopped using it in my mixes because my snails didn't like it, so I tried peat, and I ended up liking it so much more,
but as @Jack Blachura said, better safe than sorry!
I feel like there's something of a spectrum of how people make their substrates with high variability on one end and low variability on the other. Coco fiber probably would be closer to the high end because of differences in quality from brand to brand as well as the moisture. Buying substrate from bugs in cyberspace might be on the low end, for example. It makes sense to me that some people would want to avoid those variables for peace of mind, especially considering how millipedes do seem to just up and die for no obvious reason from time to time.
 

Bill S

Arachnoprince
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I have seen posts condemning coco fiber. Haven't seen any real evidence to support the claims, and I've seen a few posts that say that coco fiber is OK if mixed with other media (which seems to completely negate the idea that coco fiber is dangerous). However, I've used coco fiber for many years (for centipedes, not millipedes) and can't point to any problems with it. The expansion of compressed fiber has been noted above - and the obvious solution to that is to soak it and expand it before use in a cage.
 

Jack Blachura

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I have seen posts condemning coco fiber. Haven't seen any real evidence to support the claims, and I've seen a few posts that say that coco fiber is OK if mixed with other media (which seems to completely negate the idea that coco fiber is dangerous). However, I've used coco fiber for many years (for centipedes, not millipedes) and can't point to any problems with it. The expansion of compressed fiber has been noted above - and the obvious solution to that is to soak it and expand it before use in a cage.
I dont think theres any issue using it for things that arent using it as part of their food source.
 

Bill S

Arachnoprince
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I dont think theres any issue using it for things that arent using it as part of their food source.
Neither do I, but I've read posts that claimed it was dangerous for centipedes, indicating compaction as the major complication. I think the idea was that they would accidentally ingest some of the dust of the coco fiber. But as I've said, I've been using it for years and have not had any problems that I could blame on the coco fiber.
 

Jack Blachura

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Yeah, from whats been said here, the main cause of the impactions are probably the previously mentioned "stringy bits" and the bits of the coco fiber that didnt expand that could be ingested.
 

Arthroverts

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There is a wide variety of experiences and anecdotal reports to be found, but nothing exactly scientific to my knowledge. Using too much coco fiber does have consequences however, and the rejection of it in places like Germany (see this thread and use Google Translate if you can't read German) is so absolute more experienced enthusiasts occasionally get into Arachnoboards-style flame wars with neophytes over it.

I personally have used coco coir for all of my millipedes, and several of my friends and other experienced enthusiasts have used it as well with great success. I just think the problem comes when you have too much of it in the substrate mix, or you allow the substrate to go too long without replacement, forcing the millipedes to try and chew on it in search of food. It was and still is recommended only as a base, that is, the medium which houses the far more nutritious rotting wood/rotting leaves (as no, rotting wood by itself does not work as a good substrate on its own for most species), and if you can swap it out for something like high-quality compost your specimens may very well be the happier, though this is not absolutely necessary in my opinion.

Irregardless, it is certainly a worthy goal to limit how much coco fiber you put in your substrate (@mickiem keeps it around 1//3 of the total mix, and I am in the ball park of that number with my substrates), as too much can and will lead to the starvation/impaction of your specimens (smaller species seem to be especially prone to this) over time. I don't think we need to shun it completely, as it does make for a great burrowing medium and adds consistency to the substrate, but "all things in moderation" applies very well here.

Thanks,

Arthroverts
 

Vanisher

Arachnoking
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Is there a diffrence between coconut fibre and coconut coir? Or is it the same thing??
 

DaveM

ArachnoOneCanReach
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Is there a diffrence between coconut fibre and coconut coir? Or is it the same thing??
No difference. Coir and fiber are the same.
Coir is composed mainly of cellulose and lignin, like wood, but it's much higher in lignin than wood is. Lignin is resistant to breakdown by bacteria in general and is difficult for most insects to digest (I don't know about millipedes). Termites have a special gut fungus to help them digest lignin from wood. Coir eventually rots as mentioned, but it's colonized first by fungus (especially Aspergillus sp.), which inhibits bacterial growth for a while.
 

Elytra and Antenna

Arachnoking
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The title more or less says it all. It seems like anytime coconut fiber is mentioned, someone will chime in with "it has no nutritional value and can cause impaction."
I'd like to think I've bred and kept as many millipedes as any other breeder out there and some of my stocks are older than many in the crowd and I didn't even know impaction was a "thing" or coconut fiber was dangerous.
 

ReignofInvertebrates

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I've kept countless pedes on coconut fiber over the years and had very few mysterious deaths. Obviously using it exclusively is detrimental to most species of millipede since they require rotting hardwood and leaves, so I usually just create a mixture of the two.

Neither do I, but I've read posts that claimed it was dangerous for centipedes, indicating compaction as the major complication. I think the idea was that they would accidentally ingest some of the dust of the coco fiber. But as I've said, I've been using it for years and have not had any problems that I could blame on the coco fiber.
That's interesting. I too use coconut fiber for my centipedes and haven't noticed any problems. I'm not sure how they would even accidentally ingest it with their preference of live prey but I suppose it's possible.
 

Bill S

Arachnoprince
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.......... I'm not sure how they would even accidentally ingest it with their preference of live prey but I suppose it's possible.
In the wild they do not necessarily have a preference for live prey. They are scavengers as well as predators. I have twice found Scolopendra heros feeding on dead bats in a cave, and one S. heros that I was given was captured when it was feeding on a road-killed snake. In captivity I alternate feeding them live prey and Gerber's Baby Food. I have had them reject crickets and eat the baby food.
 
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