When people buy advanced species as one of their first

[Kendricks]

I prefer newbies learn basic T husbandry first, experience their first moults, their first rehousings, etc., before they even consider getting something more potent and fast.

That's exactly how I did it and that's also what I'd recommend to do.
Starting right away with a nastier OW species usually is no good idea, especially since more docile NW species are widely available, but I know people who did just that and are excellent in this hobby.
Just as I've seen the bite reports from those that aren't.

The sheer vastness of inexperienced newbie threads here lately -- with a lot of dead Ts involved -- makes me sad.

Is it really so bad? When I browsed this board the first time, I checked very old posts and I see no difference. Occasional spikes of these threads may or may not be coincidence. However, I agree it is sad.

I agree that no 2 people are the same. Some research everything, gain a little experience and then branch out into OWs.
Some just see something they want, with no research or preparedness.... they want it, they love it, they buy it... and then their T dies.

But that has nothing to do with NW/OW, has it? Bad husbandry will kill any species.

In just three years on these boards, I have witnessed this change in attitudes from a cautious respectful entrance into T keeping to a 'the rules don't apply to me' attitude.

What 'rules'? Just because some elitist hobbyist thinks he knows it all and that his approach is the only way to live this hobby doesn't mean he or she holds any authority, nor is in a position to form some arbitrary rules.
The quality of husbandry does not depend on rules, but mostly on the level of responsibility of the individual, wouldn't you agree?
The only attitude I find to be worrying is the "I read about charanchulas for days, mine did not try to burrow, so it won't need more substrate although each and every one of you who do keep tarantulas for years say otherwise. Oh and the expert at petco said water gel is fine!" type.
Again: individuals, responsibility, ability to acquire, filter and absorb information,...

Just because some are able to successful start with OWs doesn't mean everyone else will as well.

And no one said so, I think?
Quite the opposite.

And we probably neglect to figure in how much dumb luck may be involved in some of these newbie "OW successes."

Possibly, yes.
Unfortunately we will never know for sure, so:
In dubio pro reo, I'd say.

Why is gaining practical experience so underrated these days?

It isn't. Not from my pov. A few newbies that show how not to do it are no meaningful source to make the claim that experience in general is now being neglected.

 

[Ellenantula]

I always suggest to buy a juve/adult female.
Ja because doing that, they wouldn't have the issue to move too much dat little bugger.
Because one thing is the care, at full Zen/McGyver focus, of an adult in her final enclosure, another is to move such kind of T's too much, like needed in the case of slings.

I get that your game plan is to reduce the need for OW speedy/hot T rehousings; but unexpected maintenance can be daunting like live cricket removal... from a pre-moult OBT enclosure.
Newbies are far less likely to detect a T is pre-moult and avoid such feedings.
It's all good and well until something unexpected comes up.

I still argue for learning basic T care and gaining skills before advancing too quickly.

 

[Walker253]

I still argue for learning basic T care and gaining skills before advancing too quickly.

I respect that. I think it provides the needed balance for those making an educated decision

 

[Ellenantula]

@Kendricks Ah -- I'll clarify (and sort of think you'd agree). By "the rules don't apply to me" I meant the 'rules' in keeping any pet -- to learn about the pet, study, gain some experience, etc..
We've had a few newbies, who lack basic T skills, who believe 'the rules don't apply to me' and that they will somehow luck out and learn on the go. And maybe some will.
I simply argue some more potent fast Ts aren't the ideal ones to 'learn' with. Especially when many can't even recognize a moult, or pre-moult signs, have never rehoused a T, don't even recognize a MM when they see one.
Not saying starting out with an OW never worked out before, but it's playing the wrong odds to go in unexperienced.

I just won't encourage it. And people are going to do whatever they want anyway. But I won't say "Go ahead, it'll all be fine."

 

[Kendricks]

@Ellenantula
Yeah I got that wrong, sorry.

And yes, I absolutely agree!

 

[Ellenantula]

How many dead OW's do you see from inexperience keepers. I remember a dead G porter,this board blasted him. I took him in and we're good friends now. He's sorry btw. I also remember a girl and her darting B albo running up the chimney. I'll have to scan the board again for a dead OW that was killed by an experienced keeper.

I'm seriously not trolling you. I have mad respect for many senior board members. It's just that opinions differ.

Thanks. I think, unless I've miscounted -- we've had 5 dead Ts mentioned in the last 30 days from newbie keeping. I think only 1 of those was old world. Most simply didn't know not to touch/pick-up a moulting T. One was horrendously poor husbandry/housing -- the T basically had no chance (obligate asian burrower kept on 1 inch of sawdust).

[edited to add: we've actually had a lot more T losses than 5 in last 30 days -- but I was only counting ones where newbie inexperience was at fault]

 

[Ellenantula]

BTW -- we've still got a couple newbies needing enclosure advice in Vivariums and Terrariums form, if anyone wants to assist them. (posted here since this thread seems popular right now)
I apologise for going off topic for a moment.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I get that your game plan is to reduce the need for OW speedy/hot T rehousings; but unexpected maintenance can be daunting like live cricket removal... from a pre-moult OBT enclosure.
Newbies are far less likely to detect a T is pre-moult and avoid such feedings.
It's all good and well until something unexpected comes up.

I still argue for learning basic T care and gaining skills before advancing too quickly.

Your example is, of course, completely right. But what you said, as example, to beginners (and sometimes not only to beginners) can happen with a Brachypelma vagans as well.

Yes, they are completely different Theraphosidae, I know. I'm not comparing the two.

But the point is that, when it comes to (supposed) adult people (as I've said, 'OBT' or not, with teens/kids involved is a 'no' for me) I 'start' from my personal (and controversial, I know) point of view that said adults, did at least a bit of "101" research (if here on this site, with medium/long time lurking, better) before.

Now 'research' isn't nowhere near first hand 'action', no doubts, but at least someone that did his/her homeworks, IMO should know (even if not pretty well) what to expect and what to do or don't when the molting time arrive, how to spot the pre-molt 'signs', knows that the water dish needs to remain full etc something like that.

I'd love to pretend that. If they didn't, only their fault, for that in the world of today knowledge is at hand, unlike when I've started to keep arachnids in 1992. No one back then had the privilege to read 24/7, easily, other people opinions, "tricks" etc

Combined with the "hai voluto la bicicletta? Adesso pedala!" which means, in English:"You wanted the bike so badly? Now start to ride!" mentality of mine, this is the reason

 

[Ellenantula]

Your example is, of course, completely right. But what you said, as example, to beginners (and sometimes not only to beginners) can happen with a Brachypelma vagans as well.

You are incorrigible!
But truly, I would not be daunted to remove a live cricket from a B vagans enclosure. But a newbie with same live cricket removal issue in an OBT enclosure... that's a game changer.
Suddenly such a simple task requires a careful plan. lol

(And yes, I have removed a live feeder from a OBT enclosure before. It went fine. But not because I was brilliant but because I was lucky!)

 

[Walker253]

Thankfully, I've never had my OBT budge when I opened the top. Coincidently, I have a small B vagans, who twice bolted out and up my chest onto my back. More concerned with losing her and not the bite though. I've had B albo's bolt for freedoms last chance as well. They're fast when they want to be lol. Again thankfully, no OW has ever tried anything

 

[Ellenantula]

Thankfully, I've never had my OBT budge when I opened the top. Coincidently, I have a small B vagans, who twice bolted out and up my chest onto my back. More concerned with losing her and not the bite though. I've had B albo's bolt for freedoms last chance as well. They're fast when they want to be lol. Again thankfully, no OW has ever tried anything

I guess my OBT was weird. He was always, from sling to adult, right there topside, sitting in the middle of an amazing webbed up hammock -- waiting for a feeder drop. If he went in his burrow -- it was moult time. So each feeding meant I was basically trying to drop in a feeder that was was gonna be lunged up for before it hit the ground. He never bolted out of enclosure. But if I so much as walked by -- he was on alert -- hoping for a feeder. And yeah, I did use my fingers to drop feeders in (I'm just not very adept with tongs). And once I felt his foot (or something) brush my hand as he was grabbing his feeder from my fingers. He just lunged a bit higher than usual that time. Exhilarating to say the least and took a couple years off my life. I miss him (he quickly went from tiny sling to MM). But I have no current plans for another.

 

[cold blood]

So far, and I'm limiting myself to 6, I bought in this order: 1/2-3/4" C. Versicolor, two 3/4" GBB, 1/4" B. hamorii and one 1" P. fasciata. I'm limiting myself to six because I'm looking at space for them as adults. Oh I could fill my shelf with dozens of slings, but then what? Lol.

Fill your shelves with multiples of each species and when they are ready for adult enclosures in a few years, you will have MMs or penultimate males to sell or trade, and have a greater chance at one or multiple females of each species, multiples can be sold for greatly enhanced prices you would pay for the sling (even many MMs can)....the result would be in a few short years you would have your 5 or 6 females and have not only re-couped all you spent on feeding, but buying them and housing them as well, and have something extra padding your wallet on top of the now free females and housing.

Conversely, you could just buy the 6, and in those few years when you are ready for those adult cages to be filled, you will have maybe 2 females if you are lucky, and several MMs, now you only have 1 or 2 adult enclosures, but room for 6 and are starting over from scratch to fill those other 4 or 5 spots, buying more single slings and hoping to get another female....in a decade you might finally have your 6 females in those adult enclosures, but at a far, far greater ultimate cost and it would take a great deal longer.

Buy in multiples and your room will work for you, buy singles and you end up a slave to your t room and buying....Just some food for thought.

I don't like urticating hairs or even adorable and extremely fluffy things

How about fluffy ts with urticating hairs that have tons of attitude?

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• cold blood
• Feb 10, 2017
• 3

coloratovillsus...with flash

You explain to me, when one is ready for an OW species?

When one doesn't need to ask, wonder or seek assurances.

How long does a person need to keep how many NW species before one's ready for an OW

As many as it takes to become confident enough to know you are ready without looking for re-assurance or questioning yourself about it...as many as it takes to become skilled and refine those skills...this is where the period differs greatly among individuals.

And what if there would be no NW species or the known differences at all - then no one could ever get into this hobby in the first place?

C'mon, you don't live in a place like that....Australia is like that, and it makes it very tough for beginners and probably keeps a lot of Aussies out of the hobby.

As someone who actually got into OW early (OBT), I do not see any of the fear mongering I experienced in the past to hold any substantial truth -

This has always bugged me...its not fear mongering, this is just fantastically ridiculous...its people educated on the subject, trying to help and educate those less experienced (or not at all)...no one is making things up, no one claims death from above, they just want others to make smart decisions, so you hear about the things that others experienced going wrong when they raised them.

Its not much different than if this was a car forum and an experienced mechanic warned an inexperienced (non)mechanic about buying a vehicle with a notoriously bad transmission that's difficult and expensive to repair.

The best way experienced people can help, is by offering real world advice, based on real world experiences to help those with less experience have an easier and more enjoyable time in the hobby. I often give the advice I wished someone had given me when I started out....I didn't have no fancy interweb back then to go and ask someone about...its such an invaluable tool people have now, that we didn't have back in the day.

By reading some of the people's opinion giving advice, it could be a decade before it would be alright for a newer person to obtain a Pokie or an OBT

Now that's just crazy talk. People suggest P. cams more than anything as prep, how long does it take a P. cam to reach adulthood, 1-2 years, maybe even less if its male....that's not that much experience to ask for and its not a tremendous amount of time if you are serious about the hobby.

How many dead OW's do you see from inexperience keepers

No, its easier to keep and monitor NWs dying...so if they're killing these, its completely illogical to think a more advanced species would be a better fit.

 

[Ungoliant]

People suggest P. cams more than anything as prep, how long does it take a P. cam to reach adulthood, 1-2 years, maybe even less if its male....that's not that much experience to ask for and its not a tremendous amount of time if you are serious about the hobby.

I think you just inject your cams with growth hormones, because Squirt has grown 2" in three months -- way faster than any other tarantula I have owned, including my hungry hungry genic.

 

[Kendricks]

This has always bugged me...its not fear mongering, this is just fantastically ridiculous...its people educated on the subject, trying to help and educate those less experienced

Why do you assume that this is what I meant with fear mongering?

 

[cold blood]

Why do you assume that this is what I meant with fear mongering?

cause thats what it means....creating fear where none should exist.

 

[Kendricks]

cause thats what it means....creating fear where none should exist.

That's not what I meant...

 

[Chris LXXIX]

No, its easier to keep and monitor NWs dying...so if they're killing these, its completely illogical to think a more advanced species would be a better fit.

Uhm, but a Megaphobema robustum care could be by far more difficult (for a beginner, I mean) than the simple, almost ridiculous care a Pterinochilus murinus needs.

I'm talking only about the care part, eh, not the 'handle/work with' issue.

 

[cold blood]

That's not what I meant...

But its what you wrote, so that's literally all I have to go by.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering

Uhm, but a Megaphobema robustum care could be by far more difficult (for a beginner, I mean) than the simple, almost ridiculous care a Pterinochilus murinus needs.

I'm talking only about the care part, eh, not the 'handle/work with' issue.

But those are clearly not a beginner species either. Not all NW are beginner friendly.

 

[Trenor]

Fill your shelves with multiples of each species and when they are ready for adult enclosures in a few years, you will have MMs or penultimate males to sell or trade, and have a greater chance at one or multiple females of each species, multiples can be sold for greatly enhanced prices you would pay for the sling (even many MMs can)....the result would be in a few short years you would have your 5 or 6 females and have not only re-couped all you spent on feeding, but buying them and housing them as well, and have something extra padding your wallet on top of the now free females and housing.

Conversely, you could just buy the 6, and in those few years when you are ready for those adult cages to be filled, you will have maybe 2 females if you are lucky, and several MMs, now you only have 1 or 2 adult enclosures, but room for 6 and are starting over from scratch to fill those other 4 or 5 spots, buying more single slings and hoping to get another female....in a decade you might finally have your 6 females in those adult enclosures, but at a far, far greater ultimate cost and it would take a great deal longer.

Buy in multiples and your room will work for you, buy singles and you end up a slave to your t room and buying....Just some food for thought.

How about fluffy ts with urticating hairs that have tons of attitude?

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• cold blood
• Feb 10, 2017
• 3

coloratovillsus...with flash

When one doesn't need to ask, wonder or seek assurances.


As many as it takes to become confident enough to know you are ready without looking for re-assurance or questioning yourself about it...as many as it takes to become skilled and refine those skills...this is where the period differs greatly among individuals.



C'mon, you don't live in a place like that....Australia is like that, and it makes it very tough for beginners and probably keeps a lot of Aussies out of the hobby.



This has always bugged me...its not fear mongering, this is just fantastically ridiculous...its people educated on the subject, trying to help and educate those less experienced (or not at all)...no one is making things up, no one claims death from above, they just want others to make smart decisions, so you hear about the things that others experienced going wrong when they raised them.

Its not much different than if this was a car forum and an experienced mechanic warned an inexperienced (non)mechanic about buying a vehicle with a notoriously bad transmission that's difficult and expensive to repair.

The best way experienced people can help, is by offering real world advice, based on real world experiences to help those with less experience have an easier and more enjoyable time in the hobby. I often give the advice I wished someone had given me when I started out....I didn't have no fancy interweb back then to go and ask someone about...its such an invaluable tool people have now, that we didn't have back in the day.



Now that's just crazy talk. People suggest P. cams more than anything as prep, how long does it take a P. cam to reach adulthood, 1-2 years, maybe even less if its male....that's not that much experience to ask for and its not a tremendous amount of time if you are serious about the hobby.



No, its easier to keep and monitor NWs dying...so if they're killing these, its completely illogical to think a more advanced species would be a better fit.

@cold blood I totally agree with your post.

Especially with these two parts:

As many as it takes to become confident enough to know you are ready without looking for re-assurance or questioning yourself about it...as many as it takes to become skilled and refine those skills...this is where the period differs greatly among individuals.

This has always bugged me...its not fear mongering, this is just fantastically ridiculous...its people educated on the subject, trying to help and educate those less experienced (or not at all)...no one is making things up, no one claims death from above, they just want others to make smart decisions, so you hear about the things that others experienced going wrong when they raised them.

Its not much different than if this was a car forum and an experienced mechanic warned an inexperienced (non)mechanic about buying a vehicle with a notoriously bad transmission that's difficult and expensive to repair.

The best way experienced people can help, is by offering real world advice, based on real world experiences to help those with less experience have an easier and more enjoyable time in the hobby. I often give the advice I wished someone had given me when I started out....I didn't have no fancy interweb back then to go and ask someone about...its such an invaluable tool people have now, that we didn't have back in the day.

People do progress at different rates not just in this hobby but in everything. A lot of how you progress depends on other experiences you've had in life. I've seen people on here say keeping snakes or lizards are totally different than keeping a tarantula and that is true. But I believe a person who has experience with these other types of pets (or just been around these types of animals) will progress faster than someone with no experience dealing with them. Growing up on a farm and spending a lot of time catching snakes and bugs and lizards made this an easy hobby for me to progress in. I know I give people a hard time about teleporting Ts since I've caught and kept lizards that, while slower with strike speed, were faster than Ts over all. All those things tie into how fast someone picks up what they need to progress in this hobby.

That being said it's very alluring to a new keeper who is excited about this hobby to want harder to keep species. A lot of times it's before they are ready for them (though that's not always an easy thing to determine with a post or two in the internet). That's why when people ask about these species I think it's important not to beat them over the head about it but to explain the things they need to consider before getting them. Being informative and helpful to these new keepers, who most of the time are just really carious about the advance Ts, would go a long way to helping them not get in over their heads while preparing them for the next steps in keeping. That's why when I see new people on here make a post about an advanced T only to be made fun of or belittled it annoys the crap out of me. It doesn't help anyone when that happens.

I've always been impressed with how you gave out advice on here.

Great post man.

 

[Kendricks]

But its what you wrote, so that's literally all I have to go by.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering

My point is not the definition, that much is clear or I would not have used the term in the first place.
My point is I never said I consider the sane advice of people about NW species (fast, potent venom, often more defensive,...) to be fearmongering.

However, some people paint unnecessarily dark and complex pictures about OWs, that's what I meant.
Others here mentioned a few good points as well, like keeping them in wrong conditions (low sub,...) may cause them to be overly defensive, causing a wrong impression of these species due to bad husbandry.

Really, you're reading way too much into what I said and misunderstood me by a mile and a half.