When people buy advanced species as one of their first

[edesign]

You can research any species as much as you want. Reading is in no way is a substitute for experience of being around an actual animal but it does help to a degree. A beginner would be fine with many advanced species for the most part. The issue arises when they need to be rehoused or one escapes from the enclosure during feeding or maintenance. Any idiot can keep a spider in a box and toss food in once in a while. It's the other times that can be...interesting.

. A lot of people get the P. muticus as their first tarantula, at the recommendation of several experienced users on AB. When I first heard about that, I was baffled, but to each his own, and the P. muticus is slower than most old worlds. What are you guys' thoughts?

Define "a lot". I haven't seen this trend. I don't frequent the forums like I used to but this must be a relatively new thing. It's a very slow growing species so the keeper could, feasibly, gain experience and keep up with it as it grows, which isn't as likely with faster growing species whose size and attitude could quickly outpace the experience a beginner is trying to gain with it.

And just because everyone else is doing it in no way means it is a good idea or right for you (but you knew that already). I got an OBT way too soon. The unpacking was almost a disaster (juvie) and I'm lucky I wasn't bit. I had read countless hours about them (i can spend 3-5+ hours a day for weeks reading about a spider, trust me, research was done but that goes back to my comment above...reading is not a substitute for experience). Ten plus years later and I still have no desire to own another one (both from the experience I had and I find them overrated at this point).

Plenty of fast and even defensive NWs to choose from that you'll likely see more often than many OWs. Mention a Tappie instead of a Psalmo and you'll hear crickets for some strange reason. They're as fast or faster which is the reason many suggest Psalmos as a stepping stone to OWs but rarely anyone suggests one. They may not get as huge but not all Psalms are huge either. And they lack the stronger venom. Granted, they won't often give threat displays and stuff but there's always the option of Iridopelma. Plenty fast, will give threat displays, arboreal, kinda uncommon too

No rush to get anything crazy. They've been available for a long time and will be in the foreseeable future. If you live with other people or have small pets it is your responsibility to keep them safe, keep them informed of what you have in the house (yes, I do tell my cats, I don't they understand me though lol), and you need to take that in to account when choosing your next spider. It's one thing if a defensive T with potent venom escapes and you're the only resident. It's another if others live with you especially if you try to hide the venom or attitude aspect.

I saw someone say aggressive earlier in this thread, they are not one and the same, plus the often incorrectly applied term just gives them bad publicity and further cements their feared status amongst the general public...if it chases you around the house with no provocation it's aggressive, if you're invading its personal space by opening a lid or doing tank maintenance and it gives you threat displays or tries to bite then it is defensive.

 

[Kendricks]

I got an OBT way too soon. The unpacking was almost a disaster (juvie) and I'm lucky I wasn't bit. I had read countless hours about them (i can spend 3-5+ hours a day for weeks reading about a spider, trust me, research was done but that goes back to my comment above...reading is not a substitute for experience). Ten plus years later and I still have no desire to own another one (both from the experience I had and I find them overrated at this point).

Why, what happened during unpacking?

I started in January, now I have 3 T's, while the third is a juvenile P. murinus that I got like two months ago.
I unpacked/rehoused in my bath tub and used tongs/tweezers. I don't think there was any inevitable risk factor tbh.

It now is in a safe container, and if things go well, I will only have to rehouse her once more and that's it.

I think especially OBTs are overrated and a little misunderstood in regards of their "danger level" due to tons of terrible yt videos where you see hyper-defensive OBTs that arguably only are that crazy because of improper housing, not enough substrate or other issues, like pissbirds of keepers annoying them on purpose to show off and get clicks.

However. Starting with such a species?
Way too risky indeed.

 

[Jones0911]

Stirmi are actually a piece of cake to keep IMO. All that has to be done any different than other T's, is simply keep the sub moist. Now the hairs... well those are a problem lol.

I have two stirmis, they are easier to care for than it may sound, I spray the top and keep a full water dish.

I'm actually buying two bigger enclosures this week because they're too big for their current ones.

Here's my male and female

 

[edesign]

Why, what happened during unpacking?

I started in January, now I have 3 T's, while the third is a juvenile P. murinus that I got like two months ago.
I unpacked/rehoused in my bath tub and used tongs/tweezers. I don't think there was any inevitable risk factor tbh.

It now is in a safe container, and if things go well, I will only have to rehouse her once more and that's it.

I think especially OBTs are overrated and a little misunderstood in regards of their "danger level" due to tons of terrible yt videos where you see hyper-defensive OBTs that arguably only are that crazy because of improper housing, not enough substrate or other issues, like pissbirds of keepers annoying them on purpose to show off and get clicks.

Well, I cracked the deli cup lid open and one leg and a fang immediately shot out. Couldn't close the lid, it wouldn't retreat, fang gnashing. I hadn't grown a third arm yet so I was kinda stuck, trying to hold enough pressure on the lid so it couldn't run out but not enough to hurt it (nowadays that's exactly what I would've done, they won't let themselves get hurt that way if you give them a chance to retreat but I was very inexperienced at that time). It didn't get much better from there. I was in way over my head. I wound up selling it locally in its tank to another forum member haha.

No urge for any more OBTs (I have plenty of other OWs now though) but a dealer recently sent me a freebie...Pterinochilus sp. "Arusha" I was not thrilled but I'm going to raise it up and see what happens. Not much info on them that I can find, supposedly same locale as P. murinus RCF if not a murinus itself, one person said theirs wasn't too bad, another said it was 3x worse than an OBT when it came to defensiveness lol. Time will tell, right now it's the size of my pinky nail.

 

[efmp1987]

Personally I don't like the recommended beginner species. I find them boring, and if they were phrases, they'd be cliches. I don't like species that are known to be docile. I want my T's as murderous as can be. I love species that want to kill me from inside their enclosures. I have been bitten by a rabid dog, a venomous snake, fell of a cliff, ingested poison by accident. That's just me.

Edit: But one thing I don't want to deal with ever are URTICATING HAIRS.

 

[vespers]

Personally I don't like the recommended beginner species. I find them boring, and if they were phrases, they'd be cliches. I don't like species that are known to be docile. I want my T's as murderous as can be. I love species that want to kill me from inside their enclosures. I have been bitten by a rabid dog, a venomous snake, fell of a cliff, ingested poison by accident. That's just me.

Edit: But one thing I don't want to deal with ever are URTICATING HAIRS.

Come on, Rasputin...if you survived all of that other stuff, what's a few urticating hairs going to do to you?
That said, people wanting some defensive old worlds just for the sake of thinking they're aggressive or "murderous" is just as cliché.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Come on, Rasputin...if you survived all of that other stuff, what's a few urticating hairs going to do to you?

Ah ah ah. Nice, my man. Wasn't expecting someone mentioning old good Rasputin, the John Holmes of Tsarist Russia u_u

 

[iEatRazorz]

Quick note: Yes this post is long, yes it sounds ranty, but I'm not ranting nor have I taken any offensive to anything said across these boards about beginners. I gets there's worry about bad press. Owner and animal well being. Just wanted to put my experience and thoughts thus far out there.

From a begginer perspective as I am one I agree with everything being said. I think its a large grey area. So far, and I'm limiting myself to 6, I bought in this order: 1/2-3/4" C. Versicolor, two 3/4" GBB, 1/4" B. hamorii and one 1" P. fasciata. I'm limiting myself to six because I'm looking at space for them as adults. Oh I could fill my shelf with dozens of slings, but then what? Lol.

I got the P. fasciata after excessive research, avoiding clickbait YouTube channels in the process. I know myself, I'm attentive, meticulous about taking precautions and gauge situations before acting. That being said I also understand I'm not in complete control of the situation when it comes to any animal. Perfect example is when I housed the Versi it darted straight up my arm lol, happy first arrival! I managed to stay calm and coax it into the lid of its enclosure and done. Will I act the same with a grown pokie, I hope so. Will it happen, I don't know, but I'll act like it's going to.

Would I tell any of my aquintances to get one? Hell no. They don't have the same mindset, be it maturity, situational awareness or ability to calmly react to unexpected situations. Kitchen grease fire started, my cousions went for water and I went for flower.

All that said, I'm trying to not be the idiot with a spider in a box. I know there's alot of nuances to the care of these animals and I've been gleaning as much of it as I can from these forums and responsible YouTube channels. After I get a few rehouses, successful without incident, under my belt number 6 will be a P. Metallica, one pokie for now for this begginer. Just because I got one doesn't mean I will like having two.

I think I'll be fine, I think a begginer with the right mindset can be fine. It's really just down to the individual, just like I see stated about our spiders on here

 

[efmp1987]

Come on, Rasputin...if you survived all of that other stuff, what's a few urticating hairs going to do to you?
That said, people wanting some defensive old worlds just for the sake of thinking they're aggressive or "murderous" is just as cliché.

I don't like urticating hairs or even adorable and extremely fluffy things (zomg so cute am gunna die) because I have chronic rhinitis. One little dust up my nose is enough to make me sneeze for days.

 

[The Grym Reaper]

I have been bitten by a rabid dog, a venomous snake, fell of a cliff, ingested poison by accident.

"I have been stabbed, shot, poisoned, frozen, hung, electrocuted and burned..."

- Bill Murray, Groundhog Day

That said, people wanting some defensive old worlds just for the sake of thinking they're aggressive or "murderous" is just as cliché.

If not more cliché.

 

[Walker253]

I think too many people way overthink things. I found out early on if you give your T the "proper" environment, you will have few if any problems. If you get a more advanced species too early, one of two things will happens. One, your learning curve will greatly accelerate, or two, you'll mess up and the tarantula escapes, dies or you get bitten.
A lot of things can mitigate the worst from happening. Educating yourself with the plethora of information out there and being careful. If you're a knucklehead and random things happen to you in life, get the slow NW terrestrial. If you have a decent level of aptitude and self awareness, you'll likely be fine.
There is an excitement to keeping advanced species. They are way less boring. I had NW's to start, but the OW's started arriving within 2 months. Most of my original fear was through a lack of education. I have a good aptitude towards husbandry of many animals. I've kept venomous snakes in the past. Spiders are different, but no less hard.
@Moakmeister , you've read a ton. I wouldn't worry about the T stirmi. Build the enclosure like any other enclosure for care. Obviously make it so humidity an be maintained. But if you are worried about the hairs, use tongs, keep your face out of the enclosure and don't overly mess with it. You'll be fine.

 

[edesign]

Kind of interesting to see the newer forum members advocating advanced species for beginners "if you educate yourself" and stuff. Must be the new instant gratification generation I've heard about Rarely used to see that on these forums now everyone seems to think jumping in the deep end is plausible advice for practically anyone despite OW growth rates easily outpacing experience gathering, reading and watching videos is hardly a replacement for actual real life experience leaning how they react and move and what they're capable of, the risk to the hobby if a bunch of people start getting bit (think beyond yourself), and so on.

There is an excitement to keeping advanced species. They are way less boring.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I have OWs that are far more boring than some of my NWs and I have some NWs that are far more defensive than most of my OWS. I have NW species with far more aggressive prey responses than some of my OWs. Except the olivaceas, even at 1" they were throwing up threat displays and striking (not slapping) lol.

People finding NW boring are buying the wrong species imho or getting all complacent individuals somehow.

Walker, what NWs did have before buying OWs and how big? Slings are much different than adults much like OW slings vs older specimens. I agree with parts of your post and the knucklehead comment made me laugh. I just don't find many NWs to be all that boring. Granted, I shy away from the usual like Brachypelma and Grammastola. Of those two genera I have a 5" vagans that is evil, a 4" albo that is fairly chill when it wants to be, and two suspect male pulchras.

 

[Kendricks]

Kind of interesting to see the newer forum members advocating advanced species for beginners "if you educate yourself" and stuff. Must be the new instant gratification generation I've heard about Rarely used to see that on these forums now everyone seems to think jumping in the deep end is plausible advice for practically anyone despite OW growth rates easily outpacing experience gathering, reading and watching videos is hardly a replacement for actual real life experience leaning how they react and move and what they're capable of, the risk to the hobby if a bunch of people start getting bit (think beyond yourself), and so on.

You should not judge others from the pov of your abilities, really.
You also make the mistake to assume that learning and education is some fixed progress that has the same outcome for everyone.
That's not the case, as we can clearly see by following the different stories and experiences by the members of this board.
People are different, so are their capabilities to learn and adjust, and that makes all the difference.

You explain to me, when one is ready for an OW species?

How long does a person need to keep how many NW species before one's ready for an OW?

And what if there would be no NW species or the known differences at all - then no one could ever get into this hobby in the first place?

As someone who actually got into OW early (OBT), I do not see any of the fear mongering I experienced in the past to hold any substantial truth - as it is down to each individual if there will be problems or not.

Treat your specimen right and you'll be fine. It's tarantula keeping, one of the easiest things one can do, not rocket science.
Stop blowing the OW topic out of proportion so much. Jesus.


Edit: @Walker253
Good post, well said!

 

[Chris LXXIX]

It's tarantula keeping, one of the easiest things one can do, not rocket science.
Stop blowing the OW topic out of proportion so much.

Well, despite the fact that I agree with you and Walker253, remember, moving (rehouse, cage upgrade, packing those for shipping) certain Theraphosidae like S.calceatum or certain Asian arboreals (and I'm not talking about 'pokies', but pissed off to the zenith females of the like of L.nigerrimum etc) isn't something to take lightly, nor undermine.

If they want their speed is otherwordly. Their temperament, always nasty

 

[Walker253]

Walker, what NWs did have before buying OWs and how big? Slings are much different than adults much like OW slings vs older specimens. I agree with parts of your post and the knucklehead comment made me laugh. I just don't find many NWs to be all that boring. Granted, I shy away from the usual like Brachypelma and Grammastola. Of those two genera I have a 5" vagans that is evil, a 4" albo that is fairly chill when it wants to be, and two suspect male pulchras.

I started with a A genticulata and an LP, I then added a G pulchripes, a P lugardi, a B smithi, an A hentzi, P cancerides, A avic, and a H sp Columbia large. Then came the P regalis, the C darling, the P muticus and the OBT mixed in with other NW's. There were no slings in the previous listed T's. It's not like it took place over a long time either. The P lugardi (CL purchase) was days after the LP and the A genticulata. The P regalis was about 5 weeks later.
I have 2/3 NW and 1/3 OW really. I'm just drawn more to the OW's. It's just my preference. I'm not saying there aren't awesome NW's out there, there are many. Some people never want anymore than the B albopilosum and that's great. To each his (or her) own.

 

[Ellenantula]

I prefer newbies learn basic T husbandry first, experience their first moults, their first rehousings, etc., before they even consider getting something more potent and fast.
The sheer vastness of inexperienced newbie threads here lately -- with a lot of dead Ts involved -- makes me sad.
There was a time when most here tended to agree with my sentiments.

I agree that no 2 people are the same. Some research everything, gain a little experience and then branch out into OWs.
Some just see something they want, with no research or preparedness.... they want it, they love it, they buy it... and then their T dies.
Or perhaps the T survives in spite of poor husbandry which just fuels more encouragement for others to do the same.

In just three years on these boards, I have witnessed this change in attitudes from a cautious respectful entrance into T keeping to a 'the rules don't apply to me' attitude.

Just because some are able to successful start with OWs doesn't mean everyone else will as well.
And we probably neglect to figure in how much dumb luck may be involved in some of these newbie "OW successes."

Why is gaining practical experience so underrated these days?

 

[Kendricks]

If they want their speed is otherwordly. Their temperament, always nasty

Exactly. And if you treat them accordingly, you will be fine.

 

[Walker253]

I hit send before I finished a thought. I have a few OW's that scare the crap out of me. An H mac and an H minax (both were given to me). I find them exciting, but absolutely give them the respect they deserve. Give me 10 more years of experience and they would scare the crap out of me. Give them the proper environment and don't poke and prod, you'll generally be all right. But, you can have all the experience in the world, they come flying toward you, it might as well be day one.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Exactly. And if you treat them accordingly, you will be fine.

Ah, of course. That's indeed the basic rule. Rule zero, for me.

But let me tell you something.

You probably have noticed me, sometimes, not 'opposing' at all beginners (or however people not in the hobby from too much) that wanted/wants to buy the 'archetypus' of the evil OW Theraphosidae: P.murinus.

Now, for me (brutal level of venom potency aside) 'OBT' aren't exactly the eight legged monsters always depicted "in the legends", but just probably the most readily available, cheapest, easy to care, with a nice colour/pattern (ok, this last is pretty debatable, I know, but a lot of people like that orange/black mix) Theraphosidae.

Combined with their reputation (anyway is a defensive one) this kind of 'mix' are enough credential for end with a lot of 'beginners & OBT' threads.

In fact, not so much people starts (obviously) too much of: "beginners and Selenocosmia aruana" threads.

Now if said 'OBT' seeker beginner is a kid, or a teen living with his/her parents, of course I say a 'no' as well (my ethic/moral views, and nothing else) but in the case of adults I say 'go for it, if you want that so badly': other people money, health, whatever.
Not mine definitely.
Sure, I can and I will give you, if wanted, a bit of help (care talking) but I don't care if said adult is bitten, either. I'm a kinda jerk

But, reading 'inside' my posts (since I'm a jerk but not that jerk) you surely have noticed also that, to such beginners, I always suggest to buy a juve/adult female.

Ja because doing that, they wouldn't have the issue to move too much dat little bugger.

Because one thing is the care, at full Zen/McGyver focus, of an adult in her final enclosure, another is to move such kind of T's too much, like needed in the case of slings.

Sorry for the long comment, but IMO bottom line is: care is easy, and while those OW's remains inside an enclosure, no big deal at all if the attention level remain higher.

Another is to move/transfer/shipping/whatever those, now it's a total, completely different story... that's why.

 

[Walker253]

I prefer newbies learn basic T husbandry first, experience their first moults, their first rehousings, etc., before they even consider getting something more potent and fast.
The sheer vastness of inexperienced newbie threads here lately -- with a lot of dead Ts involved -- makes me sad.
There was a time when most here tended to agree with my sentiments.

I agree that no 2 people are the same. Some research everything, gain a little experience and then branch out into OWs.
Some just see something they want, with no research or preparedness.... they want it, they love it, they buy it... and then their T dies.
Or perhaps the T survives in spite of poor husbandry which just fuels more encouragement for others to do the same.

In just three years on these boards, I have witnessed this change in attitudes from a cautious respectful entrance into T keeping to a 'the rules don't apply to me' attitude.

Just because some are able to successful start with OWs doesn't mean everyone else will as well.
And we probably neglect to figure in how much dumb luck may be involved in some of these newbie "OW successes."

Why is gaining practical experience so underrated these days?

While I agree partially with the body of the statement, I disagree with many parts. The amount of time for one to gain experience is different from one to the other and also from many people giving advice. By reading some of the people's opinion giving advice, it could be a decade before it would be alright for a newer person to obtain a Pokie or an OBT in their eyes. I'm sorry, but I started at 48. I'm not waiting til 58. There is nothing I learned from watching an LP molt that I need to know when my Pokie molts. Likewise, there is no knowledge gained from cupping a G pulchripes and then doing your first OBT cupping.

How many dead OW's do you see from inexperience keepers. I remember a dead G porter,this board blasted him. I took him in and we're good friends now. He's sorry btw. I also remember a girl and her darting B albo running up the chimney. I'll have to scan the board again for a dead OW that was killed by an experienced keeper.

I don't see many attitudes actually changing, becoming more rebellious. I think the hobby maybe has evolved. There are a huge number of threads where others have paved the way for the newbie to be more successful. It helped me. People like you, Chris, Andrea, EulersK and Viper helped me. Just by reading your postings. There is no disrespect here. I appreciate the advice, even when you didn't know you were giving it.

Finally, I 100% agree with your last sentence, Why is practical experience so underrated these days? There are people here that like to give advice and have no practical experience with what they're talking about. They read it all and now they're an expert. I'm not naming names, but that stuff bugs me. People pat that stuff on the back here. It's mind numbing.

I'm not saying the 15 year old should go out and buy an H mac as their first T because they say a white one and it was cool. But do they need to buy a G pulchripes, a A genticulata, an A avicularia, a P cambridgei, a P irminia, a P regalis before he buys the H mac. There are some advice givers that think you need a major ladder to get to that H mac, when so much advice and experience is out there to compress that education.

I'm seriously not trolling you. I have mad respect for many senior board members. It's just that opinions differ.