When can i take the pedelings away from the mother?

[Nikos]

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I think other members can confirm there are even illustrations with explantion and even pictures next to it on my webpage,... try upgrading your browser.

yes i can confirm that

 

[cacoseraph]

wow! i haven't been to your site in a while steven.... it is amazing! i think even non-bugpeople would appreciate it. great stuff man!


anyhow, i have a question:

how does the instar system translate into the embryonic development? my working definition of instar has been the period between molts... BUT i know most egglayers have a period of incomplete development, after they "hactch", with 1-10 molts of increasing development before they are not protonymphs or nymphs.

what i was calling first instar was either 5-6 stage (i swear for polymorpha there is a stage inbetween 5 and 6 where they are still mostly white but have come coloring (actually the purple coloring might be from hemolymph)).

i have never had any problems seperating the babies when they are colored up some, but not the full sharp baby colors, if you know what i mean?

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

ALL the references i've posted several post before in this topic.)

"ALL" your reference(s) is two books, the second quoting the first which is one reference.

seems like you have missed the development inside the egg,...

You could spell out stadia based on every developmental increment and have dozens of 'stadia' inside the ova. What about the morula, gastula and blastula?

I think other members can confirm there are even illustrations with explantion and even pictures next to it on my webpage,... try upgrading your browser.

Your second adolescent stadia is the end of the first, NOT accompanied by a molt. Instars must be accompanied by a molt. Otherwise you could have an instar 83 right out of the egg rendering the terminology worthless.

since it seems you can't see any Flash (.swf files) or you are not willing to understand the 6 stages,... i'll repeat it for you:

(instar 1)4 = adolescent 1 (nymf fully extended, left the egg, translucent, white appereance) NO molt
(instar 1)5 = adolescent 2 (ocelli are getting clear, and body is getting a pale color) MOLT
(instar 2)6 = adolescent 3 (ocelli are clear, body has daker coloration)

I can see your photos but labeling one thing twice with two mumbers doesn't mean anything. You should write your info out on your site (membrane, molts, and explanations given here). When do you think the original egg membrane is cast off? It doesn't say that you delineate adolescent stadium not by ecdysis but only by a change in color and darkening of the ocelli. Nearly all my centipedes change color before each molt and this then is two stadia for one molt by your standards That's the missing 2 you hadn't explained.

 

[Galapoheros]

Those are really nice pics Metdragboy! Nice site Steven. Congrats on finishing it. But bet you wonder if you could EVER really finish it...so much you could keep adding to a site like that. As long as I've been keeping this stuff, I've never dove reeeeal deep into applying scientific nomenclature/taxonomy to pedes so the debate and your site is getting me more interested in that.

 

[bistrobob85]

Hey Elytra and Antenna, what you are saying if very interesting but we'll need the bibliographic references to actually follow what you guys are saying.

Are the references contradicting? If they're not, then there shouldnt actually be a debate, right?

phil.

 

[Steven]

"ALL" your reference(s) is two books, the second quoting the first which is one reference.

correct,... but what's your reference ? accept your own centipede guide ?

i won't go in quoting every phrase again,... cause it seems we are getting off the main subject of this topic,... (when seperating the plings from the mom)
Which tmo is by now clear for everybody.

And i'm not pretending to know everything there is on centipedes biology/development,... as i mentionend earlier, i only have used the terms "foetus + adolescent + the 6 stages" cause those are used by authors of chilopoda literature.
I'm not a myriapodologist,... not an entomologist either,... and i don't know which of the 2 you are or not,... but to say the use of adolescent, foetus and the 2x3 developmental stages are incorrect and we should use your 4 stage system with "instar" and protonympf is to my opinion simply pretentious.

When i looked at the bibliography of your "enthusiast guidebook" i must say i was surprised it didn't contained more chilopoda-literature, i think you can agree the sources you used were from more "common" antropod-publications,... not entirely focused on centipedes.

Untill one of us (or someone else) comes up with other references to this subject (development on scolopendrid centipedes),... i'm not planning to up-date my website on this matter.

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

Those who closely observe their centipedes' early development would leave their pedelings in with the mother till they're all eaten following your advice if waiting for the second molt after the 1st instar stage.

correct,... but what's your reference ?

Standard arthropod terminology is available in hundreds of books. If you really can't find information on instar PM me and I'll assemble a list. I didn't make up the word or definition of instar (protonymph is also not my word but it is no more standard than foetus).

we should use your 4 stage system with "instar" and protonympf is to my opinion simply pretentious.

Making up a strange word like adolescens (why does your site and your source spell it differently?) to use in place of standard terminology is more than pretentious, it's confusing, especially because it doesn't follow the standard definition of instar leading to 3 "stadia" where there are only two instars. Every arthropod group doesn't have it's own special terminology because it would not make sense.

When i looked at the bibliography of your "enthusiast guidebook" i must say i was surprised it didn't contained more chilopoda-literature,

The list only contains references to uique information either not found anywhere else such as antennae segmentation determination for S. polymorpha versus S. viridis proposed by Shelley or not easily found elsewhere as venom injection misconception by Werner. Information found in multiple sources (not citing each other) is not referenced and considered common knowledge.

 

[cacoseraph]

Those who closely observe their centipedes' early development would leave their pedelings in with the mother till they're all eaten following your advice if waiting for the second molt after the 1st instar stage.
Standard arthropod terminology is available in hundreds of books. If you really can't find information on instar PM me and I'll assemble a list. I didn't make up the word or definition of instar (protonymph is also not my word but it is no more standard than foetus).

Making up a strange word like adolescens (why does your site and your source spell it differently?) to use in place of standard terminology is more than pretentious, it's confusing, especially because it doesn't follow the standard definition of instar leading to 3 "stadia" where there are only two instars. Every arthropod group doesn't have it's own special terminology because it would not make sense.

The list only contains references to uique information either not found anywhere else such as antennae segmentation determination for S. polymorpha versus S. viridis proposed by Shelley or not easily found elsewhere as venom injection misconception by Werner. Information found in multiple sources (not citing each other) is not referenced and considered common knowledge.

i still don't understand how there is some kind of conflict here. Steven is pulling his information from myriapod books. i have your first enth. handbook but don't it that much except for looking at pics... but i seem to recall that you don't even cite lewis? (i could be wrong, but that is definitely the feeling i have)

and i just don't see how live birthers and egglayers could use the same terminology, so how can there be a "Standard arthropod terminology is available in hundreds of books." that would actually be applicable to both? but beyond that... as far as i know lewis has written one of the most definitive works on centipedes out there... why in dogs would you just completely ignore that?

i'm sorry you don't understand Lewis, but that really is NO reason to completely ignore him!

oh, and knocking a non-english-primary-speaker for dropping a letter here or there... really sums up the style ofyour argument

 

[Steven]

Those who closely observe their centipedes' early development would leave their pedelings in with the mother till they're all eaten following your advice if waiting for the second molt after the 1st instar stage.

I would like to see some pictures of mothers eating their young at a late "instar" phase (i have never seen this happen,... the otherway around is more common if ya ask me)

Standard arthropod terminology is available in hundreds of books. If you really can't find information on instar PM me and I'll assemble a list. I didn't make up the word or definition of instar (protonymph is also not my word but it is no more standard than foetus).

I always use the term "instar" for T's and other spiders,scorps, arachnids...
so you don't have to convince me about it's use in general anthropod terminology. ( i think i clearly asked about Chilopoda related literature,...)

Making up a strange word like adolescens (why does your site and your source spell it differently?)

i haven't notice that,... please tell me what the correct spelling is then !

to use in place of standard terminology is more than pretentious,

using a term from someone else is pretentious ? please,...

it's confusing, especially because it doesn't follow the standard definition of instar leading to 3 "stadia" where there are only two instars. Every arthropod group doesn't have it's own special terminology because it would not make sense.

correct me if i'm wrong but aren't there other terms used in T. terminology for instars aswell ? like juvie, spiderling etc... ? as i said above for inverts who don't eat their shedded skin i always use "instars", only not for centipedes.

The list only contains references to uique information either not found anywhere else such as antennae segmentation determination for S. polymorpha versus S. viridis proposed by Shelley or not easily found elsewhere as venom injection misconception by Werner. Information found in multiple sources (not citing each other) is not referenced and considered common knowledge.

And what are you trying to proof now ?



this is really offtopic but since you're trying to point out some "unique" information,... the difference in antennae segmentation between Sc.polymorpha and Sc.viridis was allready decribed in Attems 1932,...
(only back then they were both subspec. of Sc.viridis)

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

I would like to see some pictures of mothers eating their young at a late "instar" phase (i have never seen this happen,... the otherway around is more common if ya ask me)

Then you haven't had much experience breeding centipedes. I'll drive right over to the centipede lab and throw some late 2nd instars in with their mothers so I can photograph that for you...

I always use the term "instar" for T's and other spiders,scorps, arachnids...
so you don't have to convince me about it's use in general anthropod terminology. ( i think i clearly asked about Chilopoda related literature,...)

Can you imagine the mess if each group had it's own terminology and the terms were defined slightly differently as well?

i haven't notice that,... please tell me what the correct spelling is then !

If you are using a 'technical' term it ought to have only one spelling.

using a term from someone else is pretentious ?

No, reread.

correct me if i'm wrong but aren't there other terms used in T. terminology for instars aswell ? like juvie, spiderling etc... ?

Apples and oranges, you're just being argumentative and offering more and more half truths.

as i said above for inverts who don't eat their shedded skin i always use "instars", only not for centipedes.

Then you use adolescen(st) for mantids, phasmids and beetles that eat their own molts? You try to present 'your information' as scientific but then fall back on "I don't really know anything, I'm not anything".

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

and i just don't see how live birthers and egglayers could use the same terminology

live bearing versus egg laying doesn't change developmental stages. Scorpions and spiders follow the same early stadia and some roaches in the same family vary between live birth and egg laying. I didn't know I was expected to teach basic arthropod biology.

 

[cacoseraph]

Then you haven't had much experience breeding centipedes.

Can you imagine the mess if each group had it's own terminology and the terms were defined slightly differently as well?

If you are using a 'technical' term it ought to have only one spelling.

No, reread.

Apples and oranges, you're just being argumentative and offering more and more half truths.

Then you use adolescen(st) for mantids, phasmids and beetles that eat their own molts? You try to present 'your information' as scientific but then fall back on "I don't really know anything, I'm not anything".

argumentetive and half truths? i just remembered the most amusing story... something about a pot and a kettle. oh well, not important.

orin,

why don't you just email lewis, tell him to read *your* book, and then rewrite *his* book? wouldn't that save a lot of grief for us here? i mean, gosh, all that time in the lab he spent... totally not necesary!? you have all the answers already! what a resource you are! that way steven and us can stop reading all those pesky scientific works and just go straight to the font of all centipede knowledge! and phasmids... and tarantulas... and rhino beetles... and jewel scarabs... and ... and... stag beetles... AND roaches... AND mantids... *AND* true bugs?

well, i think i see what happened with centipede terms... you just got confused with one of the other types of inverts you are an expert on. no worries, happens to the best of us

If you are using a 'technical' term it ought to have only one spelling.

goodness you should write a book about tact while you are at all your other ones!!

 

[cacoseraph]

live bearing versus egg laying doesn't change developmental stages. Scorpions and spiders follow the same early stadia and some roaches in the same family vary between live birth and egg laying. I didn't know I was expected to teach general invertebrate biology.

yeah! i hate sharing information on these boards!

i only come to pimp my stuff!

 

[Steven]

Then you haven't had much experience breeding centipedes.

no, compared to you i prob. don't have much experience when it goes on breeding/raising different spec.

I'll drive right over to the centipede lab and throw some late 2nd instars in with their mothers so I can photograph that for you...

thanx, appreciated,... could ya also make a picture of the "lab",
sounds interesting and impressive.

You try to present 'your information' as scientific

never tried presenting anything scientific,... as i said above,... i'm not a myriapodologist,... still haven't got an answer you are or not ?

but then fall back on "I don't really know anything, I'm not anything".

I'm an "enthusiast hobbist" in the centipede-world,...
nothing more, nothing less and i don't think i ever pretended to be a myriapodologist/scientist like you.
I just enjoy reading good literature on my fav. pets,... and try to share the stuff i've read and learn on my website (or on public boards like these)


PS: what's your goal to all of this ?
prooving me wrong or prooving you're right ?

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

PS: what's your goal to all of this ?

I was hoping you'd use standard terminology on your site. Of course it would only matter to a tiny group of enthusiasts serious about breeding centipedes. I understand now you just can't change a few terms since those chosen have a slightly modified definition not requiring a molt for a stadia change. A short explanation of how adolescens differs from instars would be great.

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

goodness you should write a book about tact while you are at all your other ones!!

It's not my area of expertise but if you're offering to do most of the writing I'll see what we can do.

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

I as i said above for inverts who don't eat their shedded skin i always use "instars"

Scutigerid centipedes don't eat their shed skins.