When can i take the pedelings away from the mother?

[Galapoheros]

Awesome pics Steven. I got lucky with pedes and babies this year. I haven't been spooked by the thought of babies getting eaten by their mothers ...yet. I had 3 S. h. castaneiceps that had babies. Then I had the wild one I found with babies. I won't include her. All three laid eggs the first week in June. I had them in containers that let me see what was going on. I separated them when the mother stopped hanging on to them, but when the babies were still hanging around the mother. Any sign of danger and they would really group up around her. I had just over 200. Through selective sorting, I have a little over 50 I plan on watching grow. Most are around 1 1/2 inches. A few are already around 3 1/2 inches. Here's how I'm keeping mine Phil.

 

[bistrobob85]

Wow, nice arrangements, Galapo . As for me, well all my pedelings are kept in 8 oz deli-cups that are piled up. I guess it saves a lot of room but it's only for their first months...

phil.

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

I have separated pedelings at 1st instar with dismal results, but as mentioned here, 2nd instar is the perfect time to put them in their own cages.

the chance of mothers eating the youngsters are not that high as when they are still eggs or foetus ( i'm not saying there isn't a chance,...

Why use foetus here when you are referring to what you call your "1st adolescent" stage? There can be some debate on the designation of the first stadia but you use 3rd adolescent stage which would be the 2nd adolescent stage if you're discounting the first as a foetus. The term instar refers to all arthropods and using adolescent instead of instar for centipedes is wrong by any measure.

 

[cacoseraph]

I have separated pedelings at 1st instar with dismal results, but as mentioned here, 2nd instar is the perfect time to put them in their own cages.



Why use foetus here when you are referring to what you call your "1st adolescent" stage? There can be some debate on the designation of the first stadia but you use 3rd adolescent stage which would be the 2nd adolescent stage if you're discounting the first as a foetus. The term instar refers to all arthropods and using adolescent instead of instar for centipedes is wrong by any measure.

i think i've seperated like 3-4 broods of S. polymorpha at 1i and have not had any problems. what do you think you were doing wrong?

 

[bistrobob85]

I just separated the babies from the second mother... I have a happy 32 more Scolopendra Subspinipes ''Tiger Legs'' babies !!!! They seemed to be a bit bigger than the ones in the first clutch ( 45 babies ), even if the eggs were laid later... I think it could be because...

They stayed on the mother for 69 days while the first clutch stayed 66 days.
They were less babies in the clutch...

Some of the babies were actually molting while i was taking them off the mom... They were already very colored up, maybe they were ready to get off for a while now...

phil.

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

i think i've seperated like 3-4 broods of S. polymorpha at 1i and have not had any problems. what do you think you were doing wrong?

The error was I tried to remove them too early. Removing the same species (some the same mother different batch) at second instar had great results. Certainly it's likely different species would be fine at first instar since most centipedes don't take care of their young. I haven't bred S.polymorpha but the young in your photo look far more advanced than first instar of other related pedes. I don't know if you missed counting a molt. Here's a photo of a different scolopendrid at first instar, which might help you.

 

[Steven]

Why use foetus here when you are referring to what you call your "1st adolescent" stage?

cause i'm not referring to the 1st instar stage but to the stage were they are still inside a slime-sheet but with fully segmented body.

There can be some debate on the designation of the first stadia but you use 3rd adolescent stage which would be the 2nd adolescent stage if you're discounting the first as a foetus. The term instar refers to all arthropods and using adolescent instead of instar for centipedes is wrong by any measure.

i'm open for debate, but the term adolescent is used in these 2 publications (the only ones with a description of the developmental stages and lifecycle of Scolopendromorpha as far as i know,... if you do have more articles or publications related to this topic,... please share and i will review my opinion)

• Page 489 - 491 from the chapter 5.1.3 Scolopendromorpha. A. Schileyko, Joachim Adis. 2002, Amazonian Arachnida and Myriapoda. Pensoft Publishers
• Page 308 - 320 from Lewis J.G.E. 1981. The Biology of Chilopoda. Cambridge University Press

calling the stages "instars" is correct no doubt,...
but since you can't keep track of molting records behond instar 3 or 4 i personally can't see the advantages of "instar" versus "adolecent" stage for labelling the developmental stages between egg and running free immatures.

PS:
have you heard of different developmental stages between the genera of the Scolopendrid family ?

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

cause i'm not referring to the 1st instar stage but to the stage were they are still inside a slime-sheet but with fully segmented body.

You said to remove them at third adolescent stage that would have to include the prototype (your foetus stage) as stage one or the pedelings would already be eaten. What does the 1981 book call the protonymph stage? 1st adolescent stage?

i'm open for debate, but the term adolescent is used in these 2 publications (the only ones with a description of the developmental stages and lifecycle of Scolopendromorpha as far as i know,... if you do have more articles or publications related to this topic,... please share and i will review my opinion)

What about Giant Centipedes The Enthusiast's Handbook? The I-M with Alipes development is sold out but I could check into reprinting. As for references; there are many hundreds of books detailing the term instar for arthropod development and I'm certain you have at least a few in your personal collection. I am a huge fan of centipedes but giving them a nonconforming term for instar wouldn't help advance centipede knowledge. The worst part about making up a strange synonym for instar is the word adolescent means something completely different in English and would only make even a little sense in instars nearing adulthood.

calling the stages "instars" is correct no doubt,...
but since you can't keep track of molting records behond instar 3 or 4

True, it is very difficult to keep track of instars past 4 if no records are kept but any arbitrary word used in place of instar would have the same problem. It's not the word, but later instars that are hard to keep track of.

PS:
have you heard of different developmental stages between the genera of the Scolopendrid family ?

I've directly observed early development in Alipes, Ethmostigmus , Hemiscolopendra, Scolopendra and Scutigera (Despite many hatchouts I've never been able to isolate eggs of stone centipedes) and all have a nonfeeding, nonmobile, barely developed stage accompanied by the shedding of the eggshell (which is also the case for a dozen different species of millipede early development scenarios) and which I believe sets it apart from the postembryo stage of arachnids (otherwise postembryo might be the better term). The next stage, 1st instar, is fully mobile (as pictured in the post above and for this Scutigerid). The first instar stage probably does not feed in any centipede or millipede - or arachnid- (but in insects, first instar stages can be feeding or nonfeeding even from the same Family so it‘s not a defining characteristic). The second instar does not have the reserves to develop to third instar without feeding.

*additional early development photos were included in the centipede book update which is the source of the first instar Scutigerid photo.

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

I looked at your site explanation and your information doesn't discount the protonymph stage but rather includes it only at second instar so it goes:
Embryonic
Adolescent 1
Adolescent 3
--and there is no adolescent 2 because at 3 you skip 2 rather than skipping 1. So, adolescent 2 is the one discounted. That's what the book you cite says?
So then,
Embryonic = Protonymph
Adolescent 1 = 1st instar
Adolescent 3 = 2nd instar

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

Steven - have you had a chance to update the info on your site yet?

 

[Steven]

Hey Orin,
I haven't forgot this topic ,...
I've waited for an e-mail of JE Lewis to respond to this.
Here's his answer why he and others (Heymons, Lawrence, Schileyko) use the term "adolescent":

The first adolescens stadium is pigmented and the spines and setae are developed.They are mobile and have the adult shape.There follow a series of adolescens stadia until the maturus stadia are produced

To my question why the developmental stadia of Cormocephalus are described differently then Scolopendra he answered: Clearly more studies need to be made

So untill no further descriptions are published (by myriapodologists who work on Chilopoda)
i will not update the "raising" part of my website.

 

[Tarantula]

My tigerlegs have turned into plings now!

 

[Galapoheros]

Well, come on Niklas, where are some pics:drool: .

 

[Tarantula]

Havent taken any yet. Females still wrapped up around the babies. Gonna try to take afew soon though Maybe even today

 

[Tarantula]

 

[bistrobob85]

Wow, very impressive mother . Those little guys are ready to get off!!!!

phil.

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

Hey Orin,
I haven't forgot this topic ,...
I've waited for an e-mail of JE Lewis to respond to this.
Here's his answer why he and others (Heymons, Lawrence, Schileyko) use the term "adolescent":



To my question why the developmental stadia of Cormocephalus are described differently then Scolopendra he answered: Clearly more studies need to be made

So untill no further descriptions are published (by myriapodologists who work on Chilopoda)
i will not update the "raising" part of my website.

Then is sounds like he isn't counting the first stage as an adolescent stage. If you keep adolescent your numbering is still off. How do you explain the the third stage you are listing? (if you are considering the protonymph-'foetus' as adolescent stage 1 then the numbering should be 1,2,3 not 0,1,3). Where is number 2?

 

[Steven]

Then is sounds like he isn't counting the first stage as an adolescent stage.

I think i can understand what's confusing you,... cause i only mentioned the ocelli at adolescent stage 2 ???, when i wrote "the ocelli are becoming clear" at the ado. stage 2 i wasn't saying at ado. stage 1 the ocelli were absent.

If you keep adolescent your numbering is still off. How do you explain the the third stage you are listing? (if you are considering the protonymph-'foetus' as adolescent stage 1 then the numbering should be 1,2,3 not 0,1,3). Where is number 2?

same answer as above,... i don't include the "foetus" stage as adolescent,... you could consider it as embryonic stage 3.

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

I think i can understand what's confusing you,... cause i only mentioned the ocelli at adolescent stage 2 ???, when i wrote "the ocelli are becoming clear" at the ado. stage 2 i wasn't saying at ado. stage 1 the ocelli were absent.

What is confusing is your numbering system doesn't match actual development (wether you choose to use foetus or other strange words it can only affect your numbering in one of two ways). The development is either egg, 1, 2, 3 -or- egg, protonymph, 1,2. I don't know if you tried to merge two different numbering systems or haven't yet observered the protonymph stage. The reason it matters is your advice to remove young at A3 is worthless without any meaning. Photos should accompany your site info, though it still wouldn't explain your numbere 0,1,3. We're talking about the lowest form of math so I can't understand why you pretend to be dumbfounded. Look at your site: 0, "1", 3

i don't include the "foetus" stage as adolescent,... you could consider it as embryonic stage 3.

There is no explanation on your site about embryonic stage 1, 2 or "3". The protonymph is accompanied by a shedding of the embryonic membrane and therfore can't be considered an embyronic stage.

Your quote from Lewis doesn't address the use of the term adolescens over instar, the protonymph stage or your missing numbers.

 

[Steven]

What is confusing is your numbering system doesn't match actual development (wether you choose to use foetus or other strange words it can only affect your numbering in one of two ways). The development is either egg, 1, 2, 3 -or- egg, protonymph, 1,2.

it's actually 1.2.3 - 4.5.6 or you have discovered other developmental stages,... (getting tired of repeating myself,.. but the 6 stages you can find in ALL the references i've posted several post before in this topic.)
seems like you have missed the development inside the egg,... (which are illustrated and described in the "biology of centipedes")

I don't know if you tried to merge two different numbering systems or haven't yet observered the protonymph stage.

who's merging if you only have 4 ? and ALL publication (besides your own guidebook) use 6 ?

The reason it matters is your advice to remove young at A3 is worthless without any meaning.

if you think my advice is worthless,... that's your prob. Just don't reply to my answers or even read them. there's a little button called "ignore" on forums as these,... use it if ya want.

Photos should accompany your site info, though it still wouldn't explain your numbere 0,1,3. We're talking about the lowest form of math so I can't understand why you pretend to be dumbfounded. Look at your site: 0, "1", 3

The fact you can't see any pictures or illustrations on my webpage simply means you are browsing with an old browser (which doesn't support JavaScript) or you don't have an Up-to-date FlashPlayer. (you'll need at least Fl.Player 8.0)
I think other members can confirm there are even illustrations with explantion and even pictures next to it on my webpage,... try upgrading your browser.

There is no explanation on your site about embryonic stage 1, 2 or "3". The protonymph is accompanied by a shedding of the embryonic membrane and therfore can't be considered an embyronic stage.

same answer as above.

Your quote from Lewis doesn't address the use of the term adolescens over instar, the protonymph stage or your missing numbers.

AGAIN !!!! i personally choose to use of adolescent over instars,... the reason i allready posted above,... instar is ALSO correct untill you proove adolescent is wrong.


since it seems you can't see any Flash (.swf files) or you are not willing to understand the 6 stages,... i'll repeat it for you:

1 = egg (eggs slighty flattened,... embryo without segments)
2 = egg (eggs slighty bigger then 1, embryo segmented)
3 = foetus (boddy fully segmented,... but still in a half slime sheet)
*foetus stadium moults into the first adolescens stadium*(JE Lewis)
4 = adolescent 1 (nymf fully extended, left the egg, translucent, white appereance)
5 = adolescent 2 (ocelli are getting clear, and body is getting a pale color)
6 = adolescent 3 (ocelli are clear, body has daker coloration)

from here on (stage 6 = adolescent3) they leave the mother,... at which point my advice was to seperate them if they haven't left the mother by themselves,... (but that's worthless in your opinion,... so don't pay much attention to it :evil: )