What if MM g. Pulchra and MF g. Pulchripes cross breeds?

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
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Kind of like now. Try finding a proper B. vagans, B. boehmei, or B. albopilosum. Not impossible, but the mutts outnumber the propers by far.
One of the three species you've mentioned have made a comeback as you know as well. As for the Brachypelma boehmei and Brachypelma vagans look for the future for pure bred of these two species to arrive into the hobby, cause it's coming. All in good time.

Brachypelma albopilosum and baumgarteni is just the beginning........of a new start.
 

EulersK

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One of the three species you've mentioned have made a comeback as you know as well. As for the Brachypelma boehmei and Brachypelma vagans look for the future for pure bred of these two species to arrive into the hobby, cause it's coming. All in good time.

Brachypelma albopilosum and baumgarteni is just the beginning........of a new start.
Yeah, a true albo is certainly on my list. Certainly going to happen. I'm already lucky enough to have gotten a true boehmei. As for vagans... I'll believe it when I see it :sorry:
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
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Photo Courtesy of Jorge Mendoza
IMG_4081.JPG Soon subadult and adult captive born Brachypelma smithi aka annitha will be imported from Mexico. This will be the second import from Mexico in less than a year. The parents of this tarantulas were wild caught. A few other species will be imported as well.
 

EulersK

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Soon subadult and adult captive born Brachypelma smithi aka annitha will be imported from Mexico. This will be the second import from Mexico in less than a year. The parents of this tarantulas were wild caught. A few other species will be imported as well.
So is B. smithi being reclassified as B. annitha? Last I saw, they were distinct species.

It's great to see some fresh blood in the hobby. I'm a bit worried about inbreeding as much as we've done.
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
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So is B. smithi being reclassified as B. annitha? Last I saw, they were distinct species.

It's great to see some fresh blood in the hobby. I'm a bit worried about inbreeding as much as we've done.
The new revision has been accepted Jorge is just waiting to be published. As for a couple of the Brachypelma species they will be as follow:

Hobby Brachypelma annitha is Brachypelma smithi and hobby Brachypelma smithi is Brachypelma homorii.

When we get our import that's how this two species will be labelled as, Jorge is already posting and listing them as how the two species were meant to be.

So anyone that has Brachypelma annitha label your tarantula as B. smithi same with the smithi label them as hamorii.

So yes both are still a two different species.
 

EulersK

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The new revision has been accepted Jorge is just waiting to be published. As for a couple of the Brachypelma species they will be as follow:

Hobby Brachypelma annitha is Brachypelma smithi and hobby Brachypelma smithi is Brachypelma homorii.

When we get our import that's how this two species will be labelled as, Jorge is already posting and listing them as how the two species were meant to be.

So anyone that has Brachypelma annitha label your tarantula as B. smithi same with the smithi label them as hamorii.

So yes both are still a two different species.
Please do let us know when it's published! And yes, I know it can be several years before that happens. I'll go ahead and relabel then... not happy about it, though.
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
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Please do let us know when it's published! And yes, I know it can be several years before that happens. I'll go ahead and relabel then... not happy about it, though.
About a week ago when I contacted Jorge he said it could still be several months befor it gets published. He's waiting patiently as well as we are. Yeah I'll let you guys know when it happens. I do wish the name annitha should have not been deleted for this species but since I'm not the one who did the revision we just have to support the new name for this species.
 

EulersK

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About a week ago when I contacted Jorge he said it could still be several months befor it gets published. He's waiting patiently as well as we are. Yeah I'll let you guys know when it happens. I do wish the name annitha should have not been deleted for this species but since I'm not the one who did the revision we just have to support the new name for this species.
Oh, that's all? I don't mind waiting that long. If I may ask, what is your defense for the B. annitha name?
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
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Oh, that's all? I don't mind waiting that long. If I may ask, what is your defense for the B. annitha name?
I simply don't like original names to be change do to the fact with this topic about hybrids. It causes confusion with the names of the two species for the average person, sellers and pet stores.

Not to long ago I asked Jorge a question about inbreeding so my question was:

What are your thoughts about inbreeding siblings to siblings tarantulas? I'm on a forum right now that I'm having a discussion with a few people that are not against inbreeding tarantulas. Have you by any chance have found any type of evidence that can alter their life and being a pure blood species?

Jorge response about inbreeding and hybrid with some of the Mexican species:

Hi José, no I dont have any contundent proof that inbreeding can be bad in strict sense. But I know experiencies from people that with species of quick grown as Neoholothele incei has made inbreeding and noticed that crossing siblings from same eggsac reduce their life span, even some spiderlings die sooner. This starts in the third generation.

In the case of Brachypelma at least I think it is not so common in some species due to illegal traffic. I. e. redknee tarantulas was extracted by thousands of specimens and although people think Colima and Guerrero was the same species they cannot be breed because they are genetically distant and male bulbs does not match each other. So it is almost impossible an hybrid of them. The opposite occurs in the case of B boehmei, B baumgartemi, B auratum and B smithi (Guerrero) which are genetically closed so the possibility to hybridize is high.

Well to corroborate if can exist problems its necessary to made genetic analyses and keep many generations, which is not easy becasue the cost and time. So for now this is uncertain.

In my particular case I dont inbreed because I have a reitroduction project with Brachypelma, as a legal breeder and researcher Im keeping genetic diversity of my specimens, so one male only mate with two females as max, other females mates with different couples. For now I have spiderlings for other two eggsacs from different parents as the ones you will recieve.
 

Python

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I'm not a fan of the whole "kill it because it's not pure" idea. The T's didn't have a choice in what their parents were. Just because their parents didn't match doesn't mean they deserve to die. That is a very disturbing concept to me.
 

EulersK

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I simply don't like original names to be change do to the fact with this topic about hybrids. It causes confusion with the names of the two species for the average person, sellers and pet stores.

Not to long ago I asked Jorge a question about inbreeding so my question was:

What are your thoughts about inbreeding siblings to siblings tarantulas? I'm on a forum right now that I'm having a discussion with a few people that are not against inbreeding tarantulas. Have you by any chance have found any type of evidence that can alter their life and being a pure blood species?

Jorge response about inbreeding and hybrid with some of the Mexican species:

Hi José, no I dont have any contundent proof that inbreeding can be bad in strict sense. But I know experiencies from people that with species of quick grown as Neoholothele incei has made inbreeding and noticed that crossing siblings from same eggsac reduce their life span, even some spiderlings die sooner. This starts in the third generation.

In the case of Brachypelma at least I think it is not so common in some species due to illegal traffic. I. e. redknee tarantulas was extracted by thousands of specimens and although people think Colima and Guerrero was the same species they cannot be breed because they are genetically distant and male bulbs does not match each other. So it is almost impossible an hybrid of them. The opposite occurs in the case of B boehmei, B baumgartemi, B auratum and B smithi (Guerrero) which are genetically closed so the possibility to hybridize is high.

Well to corroborate if can exist problems its necessary to made genetic analyses and keep many generations, which is not easy becasue the cost and time. So for now this is uncertain.

In my particular case I dont inbreed because I have a reitroduction project with Brachypelma, as a legal breeder and researcher Im keeping genetic diversity of my specimens, so one male only mate with two females as max, other females mates with different couples. For now I have spiderlings for other two eggsacs from different parents as the ones you will recieve.
Understandable. It's not like every B. smithi owner will be getting a letter in the mail detailing the change, it's very easy to miss reclassification. Hell, I wouldn't have known about it unless you just offhandedly brought it up. Well thank you very much for the information, I walked away learning quite a bit here. Good thing, too, since I just got my hands on a few B. smithi's.
 

Venom1080

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I'm not a fan of the whole "kill it because it's not pure" idea. The T's didn't have a choice in what their parents were. Just because their parents didn't match doesn't mean they deserve to die. That is a very disturbing concept to me.
its for the greater good of the hobby.
 

Python

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its for the greater good of the hobby.
That doesn't make it sound better. In fact that makes it sound worse. Lots of babies killed for a hobby. I understand that people want pure bloodlines and I understand that crossbreeding is frowned upon but killing those who don't have a choice in the matter just seems a bit Hitleresque to me, especially when it's "For the greater good". While it is true these are only arachnids, it seems that using the same arguments that were used in Germany during the 40's might send the wrong message. I'm not trying to equate this forum with the nazis but the arguments being used are the same ones used then. Besides, is this the best solution anyone can come up with? Are hybrids so terrible that their very existence negates any possibility of them being able to live their lives out? Is there no one out there that would take them to raise just because they value life? Is the wholesale killing of entire batches of babies the best idea we've come up with? That is a sad commentary in and of itself.
 

Venom1080

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That doesn't make it sound better. In fact that makes it sound worse. Lots of babies killed for a hobby. I understand that people want pure bloodlines and I understand that crossbreeding is frowned upon but killing those who don't have a choice in the matter just seems a bit Hitleresque to me, especially when it's "For the greater good". While it is true these are only arachnids, it seems that using the same arguments that were used in Germany during the 40's might send the wrong message. I'm not trying to equate this forum with the nazis but the arguments being used are the same ones used then. Besides, is this the best solution anyone can come up with? Are hybrids so terrible that their very existence negates any possibility of them being able to live their lives out? Is there no one out there that would take them to raise just because they value life? Is the wholesale killing of entire batches of babies the best idea we've come up with? That is a sad commentary in and of itself.
we want pure bloodlines. i want to be able to buy a Brachypelma smithi without being worried it might be some sort of hybrid. Avics and Brachypelma are already a bit of a mess. i dont want to see it get worse. if a bunch of hybrid spiders have to die, oh well. its better than there only being one species of one genus.
some of those spiders will most likely end up in the hands of a beginner, turns out male, the beginner finds a experienced keeper to breed his "red knee" with and sooner or later the hobby is a mess of hybrids. thats just one of the possibilities.
 

cold blood

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We don't want pure bloodlines...we need them. Without them there will only be hybrids and species can be lost forever within the hobby.:sorry:
 

Anoplogaster

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Lol.... another hybrid bashing session from people who believe hybridization never happens in the wild. For all you know, your beloved "pure bred" species IS a hybrid of multiple species before it ever entered into the hobby. By using the "pure bred" argument, you're basically stating that a species, through some miracle, just appeared on this earth exactly as it is today, and has remained unchanged since the dawn of time. Hybridization and genetic mutations play a major role in evolution. Rant over:hurting:

Now, in regards to hybridization in the hobby, I don't think it should be done. The reason is that we, as animal hobbyists, are interested in the diversity of wild types. We want to preserve the wild type traits as best as we can, so we can enjoy the natural diversity we found them in:)
 

Python

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Oh I understand the idea behind wanting pure bloodlines. I do. But the reasoning presented here looks and sounds exactly like the low IQ ideas presented almost a hundred years ago. You don't want them, that's fine. Send them to me. They won't have to die and they won't ever make it into breeding programs or the pet trade. I'm sure there are others that would take them but the consensus is that they should die anyway. That just sounds horrible. I hate it but there is really no argument that anyone can make that would make me forget that I hate to see them die because they aren't worth saving.

We don't want pure bloodlines...we need them. Without them there will only be hybrids and species can be lost forever within the hobby.:sorry:
You HAVE them already. Hybrids won't make pure breeds disappear as evidenced by the fact that hybrids are already in the hobby and so are purebreeds. That said, as long as a T looks like and acts like a pure breed, who in this hobby would know that it wasn't? How many people here have done DNA testing to ensure that their T's are exactly what they claim they are with no genetic pollution? My guess is it's a pretty small number.
 
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cold blood

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Natural boundaries often prevent or severely limit hybridization in the wild...its why they were all able to evolve separately in basically the same areas.
 

Ungoliant

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I understand that people want pure bloodlines and I understand that crossbreeding is frowned upon but killing those who don't have a choice in the matter just seems a bit Hitleresque to me, especially when it's "For the greater good". While it is true these are only arachnids, it seems that using the same arguments that were used in Germany during the 40's might send the wrong message. I'm not trying to equate this forum with the nazis but the arguments being used are the same ones used then.
I would refrain from comparing egg sacs (or even spiderlings) with the human victims of a totalitarian regime. While I understand that you don't like to see animals being put down unnecessarily, it is hard to have a serious discussion when hyperboles about Hitler and Nazi Germany are thrown around.


You don't want them, that's fine. Send them to me. They won't have to die and they won't ever make it into breeding programs or the pet trade. . . . I hate it but there is really no argument that anyone can make that would make me forget that I hate to see them die because they aren't worth saving.
This may seem like a longshot, but consider this scenario. Something happens to you (e.g., a serious car accident) that renders you unable to care for your tarantulas or rehome them yourself (because you're dead or in an extended coma). A well-intentioned relative rehomes your tarantula collection on Craigslist or Facebook (or even drops them off at a local pet store).

At some point in the process, your labels and notes are lost or at least separated from your tarantulas. Even if your relative includes these records when rehoming your tarantulas, a subsequent owner may lose the records or not include them when he transfers ownership of the tarantula. (A long-lived tarantula can go through several owners, and many people will trade or sell their mature males to breeders.) The tarantula ends up being identified by how it looks, which may very well be like one of the two parent species and not an obvious hybrid. In a worst-case scenario, it is bred, and the a large number of hybrid offspring enter the hobby.

And that's just what could happen with well-intentioned, honest parties. If you add dishonesty to the mix (maybe not you but subsequent owners), all bets are off.


You HAVE them already. Hybrids won't make pure breeds disappear as evidenced by the fact that hybrids are already in the hobby and so are purebreeds.
As hybrids become established in the hobby, it becomes increasingly difficult to distinguish the hybrids from the purebreds. It also increases the odds that hybrids will be used in breeding programs (due to dishonesty or ignorance on the part of the breeders), resulting in an increase in hybrids and additional muddying of the genetic lines.
 

Venom1080

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im pretty sure my striata is a hybrid, it has a faint white abdominal band like a P regalis. doesnt mean im going to kill it, i love my stirata and will keep it as a pet till it dies. its when people breed these spiders that trouble comes. nothing wrong with owning them. i and many others just want different species, not just a mix of everything.
Oh I understand the idea behind wanting pure bloodlines. I do. But the reasoning presented here looks and sounds exactly like the low IQ ideas presented almost a hundred years ago. You don't want them, that's fine. Send them to me. They won't have to die and they won't ever make it into breeding programs or the pet trade. I'm sure there are others that would take them but the consensus is that they should die anyway. That just sounds horrible. I hate it but there is really no argument that anyone can make that would make me forget that I hate to see them die because they aren't worth saving.
 
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