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Want to keep your rights to Ts? Poecilotheria owners, breeders or dealers

Discussion in 'Tarantula Chat' started by Perentie, Jan 25, 2014.

  1. Perentie

    Perentie Arachnosquire

    • Like Like x 2
  2. Arachnopets

    Arachnopets Arachnoboards Team Staff Member

    Yes, please all go to THIS THREAD and help by speaking up!! Your voice CAN make a difference!

    • Clarification Please Clarification Please x 1
  3. Blinx

    Blinx Arachnopeon

    I actually want a gooty ornamental, but they are a critically endangered spider. So while captive raising them can bring in hundreds, but there is no real place left for them in the wild to live. If hobbyists cannot have them, then where do they go? from the red list "The species is found in a single location, which is severely fragmented. The extent of occurrence is less than 100 km2. India: Andhra Pradesh: Reserve forest between Nandyal and Giddalur." from the red list again "The type description stated the species as occurring in Gooty, which is wrong since although the animal was caught in the railway timber yard in Gooty, the specimen could have come from the Eastern Ghats, which is at least 100 km away. Molur et al. (in press) rediscovered the species after 102 years in 2001 in a highly disturbed forest between Nandyal and Giddalur. Other surveys have not indicated the presence of this easily-identifiable species in any other locality. However, traders have put up this spider on sale after collecting some adults from the said area or nearby. Since information on their collection area is not available, it is presumed that they could have collected only from the nearby location and not from the protected Gundlabrahmeshwaram Wildlife Sanctuary."

    It is just so unfortunate, while there may be impossibility in the future to keep them, there is less of a chance they will have somewhere to live. Perhaps there are clues on North Sentinel Island, where no one is allowed and the tribes are unfriendly towards modern people. Perhaps more could be found there?
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Clarification Please Clarification Please x 1
  4. Speg

    Speg Arachnosquire

    Someone who has a powerful voice needs to let people know that these breeders are actually helping by keeping certain species from going totally extinct.
    • Agree Agree x 6
  5. Yanose

    Yanose Arachnobaron Old Timer

    collect all the pokies you can create breeding projects and keep track of the numbers produced and give the info to the appropriate folks to show how the hobby can help a severely endangered animal survive. write letters to your congressmen but ultimately the best way any one could help is to put together a fund and lobby. that would mean many of us getting on board together which is tough i can not even get a invert group together in and around Spokane so how you would raise the millions necessary to effectively sway politicians. unless some one could get a senator or governor Ect to take up the cause perhaps if we could get some politician interested by giving them colorful slings as a gift. who knows.
    • Like Like x 7
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. khil

    khil Arachnobaron

    Unfortunately everyone who has a powerful voice in these things such as exotic banning is a <edit>: . They'll probably end up getting banned like reptiles and fish are.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2016
  7. Burchling

    Burchling Arachnopeon

    According to Tarantula20 and EulersK, holding tarantulas is going to kill the hobby. hmmm.... not sure if.... nope.
    • Dislike Dislike x 5
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    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Lollipop Lollipop x 1
  8. WhyUBiteBite

    WhyUBiteBite Arachnosquire

    So I know its old news but what was the outcome of this?
  9. Wiscokid

    Wiscokid Arachnopeon

    I believe they are starting the legislation up again and have a new petition
  10. bloodpythonMA

    bloodpythonMA Arachnosquire

    Not sure if any of you guys are reptile keepers as well, but the United States Association of Reptile Keepers (USARK) made an injunction to the court of appeals regarding the addition of animals to the Lacey act and how it restricts interstate transport. The court of appeals made the decision that the US government dosent have the power/right to restrict interstate transportation with use of the Lacey Act (since that isn't what the Lacey Act was designed to do). So importation may be restricted going forward if they continue the initial legislation. But otherwise, interstate transportation will still be OK going forward. (As things stand)
    • Like Like x 2
  11. pocock1899

    pocock1899 Arachnosquire Old Timer

    Regardless of what transpires with the USARK injunction, it will have absolutely no effect on the Endangered Species Act listing of any of the Poecilotheria genus. The Lacey Act injunction is based on the interpretation of one, single word in the Act. The ESA is a separate law, and there are no such ambiguities in it.

    This listing has been trundling slowly down the rails for years. Even if they wanted to, USFWS would have a hard time NOT listing some of these tarantulas, ...because there is little or no question that some of the species truly ARE endangered in the wild. Once Wild Earth Guardians made the proposal to list the species, USFWS was required by law to start the process. You can thank Wild Earth Guardians for the listing, as it had not been proposed by USFWS before that, and it's unlikely that these spiders were even on the USFWS radar, since they are all foreign species.

    What we can hope for now, is that the currently held pet species are listed no higher than "Threatened", not "Endangered". A Threatened listing would mean that there might be a chance for a Special Rule that exempts captive bred animals. An Endangered listing offers no such chance.

    Not all of the species of Poecilotheria were proposed for listing, so there is also hope that the entire genus might be listed. Regardless, if you really like this genus you might think about getting them now, as prices are sure to go up on some of them when they are listed. Also since a listing will mean that interstate transport will become illegal, ...if you see something you want, out of state, I'd place that order now if you want to get them legally. JMO.
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Venomgland

    Venomgland Arachnosquire

    Reminds me of Eastern Diamondback rattlesnakes. Someday the only way they will be around is from breeders. Just because something is venomous. It doesn't mean it doesn't belong on earth. They serve a purpose as I'm sure the Gooty does too.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Andrea82

    Andrea82 Arachnoemperor Active Member

    Any updates on this? Is the ban already in place?
  14. vespers

    vespers Arachnodemon

    No ban is in place, currently.
  15. If it's captive bred, how is that even influenced by the endangered species act. Prove that you haven't been to where they live and which breeder you got it from.
  16. Andrea82

    Andrea82 Arachnoemperor Active Member

    From what I've gathered, the proposed ban also includes spiders bred in captivity. But I'm not in the middle of this so I could be wrong. Good to hear there's no ban in place yet.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Ungoliant

    Ungoliant Malleus Aranearum Staff Member

    The effect of being listed under the Endangered Species Act would be even more restrictive than being part of CITES, as it would also affect the domestic pet trade. (CITES Appendix II species, such as Mexican Brachypelma, can still be domestically bred for the commercial pet trade, provided there are no other laws prohibiting it.)

    The only specimens that would be "grandfathered" if these species were added to the Endangered Species Act are those acquired legally before the ban (provided you could prove it). From then on, breeding, selling, or bartering (even of grandfathered specimens) would be illegal. Effectively, these species would be eliminated from the pet trade.
    • Like Like x 1
  18. pocock1899

    pocock1899 Arachnosquire Old Timer

    An Endangered Species Act listing could have other effects on the hobby.
    Right now, sending a package with spiders through the US Mail is just an infraction of postal regulations. Sending it via UPS or FedEx is not even that.

    When this regulation is enacted, sending an ESA listed Pokie illegally across state lines would at LEAST be a misdemeanor offense (less than 1yr in jail and up to $50,000 fine). And it doesn't matter whether you ship it by mail, UPS, FedEx, or the trunk your car. Heck, ...even OFFERING an ESA Pokie for sale across borders is a crime!
    Additionally, crossing state/international borders with an illegal Pokie could also put you at risk for a Lacey Act violation. That's the big time. Felony, possibly years in prison and hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.

    AND, because spider smuggling could possibly be a serious offense like this, you can expect the scrutiny of shippers and buyers to be MUCH more intensive than it is now. Currently, it's a relatively low priority compared to other crime. It's rarely been worth the time of Law Enforcement to spend a lot of time pursuing buyers, as well as sellers. That all changes when the final rules are published, and these species are added to the ESA.

    For those of us who keep Pokies in our collections, we'll have to be very, very careful of how we proceed in buying, selling and shipping. Saying you didn't know the law is no excuse in court.
    • Sad Sad x 1
  19. People buy and sell captive bred tigers all the time & they're endangered species in the wild. Thousands are owned privately across America.

    Besides, they would also have to prove a pokie isn't a hybrid, which would have no such protection, just saying!!
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  20. pocock1899

    pocock1899 Arachnosquire Old Timer

    Unfortunately, you seem to have a general misunderstanding of the law.... Both of your examples are pretty far into left field.
    If you plan on dealing with Poecilotheria (or tigers!) you really need to brush up on the law. These aren't parking tickets you get for violating the ESA, the Lacey Act or some of the other laws involved. Ignorance of the law is not a defense you can use in court, but in some of these instances, it could earn you a felony indictment!

    The laws surrounding tigers are much more complicated than you seem to believe. Each state and many local jurisdictions have laws pertaining to dangerous captive wildlife. In addition to the ESA laws and regulations, big cats, their ownership and transport are specifically covered under a Federal Law called the Captive Wildlife Safety Act. It's adds additional amendments to the the coverage of the Lacey Act.
    Here's a little shot of info for you: https://www.fws.gov/le/pdf/CaptiveWildlifeSafetyActFactsheet.pdf
    Not everyone is eligible to own one, nor can every owner sell them.

    Coming back to spiders, ...your argument that "they" have to prove a pokie isn't a hybrid, ... No, they don't.
    Hybrids are covered up to f4, and the owner is the one responsible for proving lineage, not USFWS (or any other regulatory agency). If Poecilotheria are listed under the ESA (which seems likely), then interstate commerce will be prohibited.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
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