Too rare to handle?

Falk

Arachnodemon
Old Timer
Joined
May 28, 2009
Messages
679
Fran has some very good points there.

There are also plenty more spider forums to check out but you will get the same answers there as Fran just gave you.
 

Raine

Arachnopeon
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
10
I can understand your reasoning. I think because I have been a part of the reptile community that the arguments for non handling of Ts seems to relate to the handling of reptiles.

Reptiles can switch moods very, very quickly. Mostly this holds true for Iguanas and snakes. Both of which I have had and been attacked by. I have been tagged by boas, pythons, lizards...I have NEVER dropped any of the creatures that have bitten me. I know it won't feel nice if I get bitten. I wasn't thrilled with the 9' Taiwan Beauty that had the length of my palm across stuck in her mouth. Or the supposedly friendly gecko that sliced open my finger. Nor the ball python who latched onto my arm and the boa who dislodged teeth into my hand when it struck and held on.

There are risks keeping reptiles. And I never hold my T more than a foot off the ground. Nor have I ever flung or freaked out at being stung or bitten by anything. I doubt I'd like it.

But I am MORE than appreciative of your knowledge. I was not aware G. rosea was prone to mood swings. I will have to watch very closely and hope mine doesn't decide to pull a switch or I'll have a nasty bite.

Lizards go from a much higher humidity as do snakes into another cooler or drier area. I think I forgot to mention I don't even take my T out of the room. In fact when held it's not for a long period of time. Maybe 10 mins or so. Just to let her crawl on me then go back. But like I said I don't prod her onto me she just climbs out and onto me. So 'taken out' is hardly the way of it. She climbs out on her own.

But you know...I think I will make this T my only handling one. She seems to be doing it of her own volition. Unless I get a Brachy who does the same, I won't bother 'taking it out'. And I don't plan on handling any non-Brachy or rosea. Any other species I am getting for display and looking only--unless anyone knows of a T that is exactly like Brachys and roseas for docile behavior to that degree. Because they seem to have a lot more issues with handling and I really think in the case of the defensive or aggressive ones it stresses them out. I'll compromise on that one. I won't be handling any slings either that are not a couple inches in length.

Again...I get where you're coming from. It doesn't benefit it. But my G. rosea still does it regardless--coming out of the tank, I mean, to explore on me.

Don't get me wrong. I respect your opinion. I just want to have mine respected to. Now, do you know of any species among the Brachy that are defensive or aggressive so that I know for sure not to handle them? :)

@briar: I have been keeping animals for YEARS. Reptiles, snakes, turtles, cats, dogs, ferrets, rodents, fish of the saltwater and freshwater kind, birds, frogs and toads, roaches, a couple of mantises...your commentary not needed. Ts are new to me but I'm being reasonable in what I'm saying. And compromising to some degree which is more than anyone has done regardless of the fact people just as experienced or more than them are of the same opinion as I have.

 

briarpatch10

Arachnosquire
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
67
Plain and simple.....if you want to get advice get it just stop the arguments. I dont care if you raise rhinos in the back yard it doesnt change the fact that your attitude in previous posts sucks. Everyone was trying to help and you wanted to argue. This is the last reply you will see on one of your posts . I feel sorry for you and all of your pets. You cant even appreciate help that is given when you ask for it.
 

H. laoticus

Arachnoprince
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Mar 11, 2009
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I understand that it's already unnatural for T's to be in cages and fed on a schedule by people who select their prey, but it's another matter to add something new to the mix. External forces may or may not be beneficial to a T, but the fact that it's unknown and not studied gives me good reason not to test it out on my pets before evidence is provided.

The best I can do is make a sad attempt to replicate the basics that exist and occur in their natural environment (minus the parasites, predators, etc.). If there's one thing I know, it's that T's are not being mysteriously abducted and held by large beings in their natural settings. They have existed this way and have survived this way.
There's also the behavior of the T to consider and that may vary by individual, species, and environment. A T that does well isolated will probably not appreciate any extra attention by any other animal other than its prey and the occasional mating partner. In addition, a "docile" T is not a good indicator of a "non-stressed" T or a T that is not being negatively or positively affected by certain stimuli. I can only hope to replicate or produce conditions that are advantageous or favorable to the vitality of my specimen.
 

Raine

Arachnopeon
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
10
@briar: feeling sorry for pets that are all rescues and VERY well cared for won't do you any good. I did my research on every single one of the pets I have and they are all in VERY good health. But that aside...

I have learned that stating my opinion on a matter not proven either way is going to get me harsh feedback from the members who disagree. It's not arguing when I'm not the one telling them what to do.

I want advice of course. But I want advice that is solid and proven by experience and facts. Not advice that is trying to be beat into me by those who disagree with my opinion. It goes from being advice to harassing at that point.

@H. laoticus: yours is the most reasonable explanation I have heard. Rather than try to tell me I will be ignorant for holding my T or that your opinion on it is the right one and mine is false, you have simply stated in an intellectual and logical way a darn good reason not to hold a T.

I think had you not posted I would have stuck to holding my Ts. But the way you put it...sounds pretty solid. It isn't proof but at the same time it makes sense. The example of not wanting to find out either way for the good of the T is something I can appreciate.

Might I ask, though, in regards to this particular G. rosea I have, what you suggest is the right thing to do? As I tried to explain to those who simply ignored what I said and went around it and back to the same thing they kept repeating, which is really irksome...

Fran and Falk BOTH ignored what I kept trying to tell them. That I don't GRAB the tarantula. I don't even PROD my T onto my hand. She, of her own volition, climbs up the side of her tank out onto me. The example of In this situation I would like to know what you think, since they will not address it.

Also, I am not two years old. I'm not going to drop her when she's no more than a foot off the ground. I'm not going to let a slow moving T escape even if I have to use a cup to get her back in. I am monitoring her every minute she is climbing on my arm. You keep going on about how I'm causing her unnecessary stress. She's doing this because she is obviously not stressed by it. You sound like you're speaking about people who reach in and force their T to be held. I don't fit into that category at all. Read my entire post and stop ignoring the integral things I try to tell you just so you can keep arguing your points.
 

Chris_Skeleton

Arachnoprince
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Jan 31, 2010
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I hope you know that if you are handling it more than a foot off the ground, it doesn't matter if you are two years old or not, if the T gets scared or something, it WILL run and you WILL drop it. Age has nothing to do with it. Don't underestimate the speed of any T.
 

Scorpionking20

Arachnoknight
Old Timer
Joined
May 31, 2010
Messages
158
I understand that it's already unnatural for T's to be in cages and fed on a schedule by people who select their prey, but it's another matter to add something new to the mix. External forces may or may not be beneficial to a T, but the fact that it's unknown and not studied gives me good reason not to test it out on my pets before evidence is provided.

The best I can do is make a sad attempt to replicate the basics that exist and occur in their natural environment (minus the parasites, predators, etc.). If there's one thing I know, it's that T's are not being mysteriously abducted and held by large beings in their natural settings. They have existed this way and have survived this way.
There's also the behavior of the T to consider and that may vary by individual, species, and environment. A T that does well isolated will probably not appreciate any extra attention by any other animal other than its prey and the occasional mating partner. In addition, a "docile" T is not a good indicator of a "non-stressed" T or a T that is not being negatively or positively affected by certain stimuli. I can only hope to replicate or produce conditions that are advantageous or favorable to the vitality of my specimen.
I've been waiting for this! Though we can't have scientifically valid claims on this issue (Due to lack of evidence on the subject, no premises can be held as true, just assumed), we can have philosophically sound arguments. :) Well done sir!

*Passes this guy an e-cookie
 
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Raine

Arachnopeon
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
10
I probably do underestimate the speed of my rosea. But I don't handle her unless I've got her in my hands and my hands are usually in my lap where my legs are kept straight. Before she falls to the ground she will end up on my legs and be able to run down. But I will definitely take the advice not to underestimate her, thank you. Are the G. rosea very fast when they do run? Mine seems to move very, very slowly--at least so far!

I just spent a lot of time reading through threads regarding handling. It seems that there are equally experienced handlers just arguing their opinions and it keeps going in circles! I see the 'no proof either way' thing come up a lot. I see most people agree that if you are handling it safely it is your choice...and others saying that they should not be handled at all. I also noted a lot of people are mentioning that their Ts became more docile with handling. But that's the thing...mine was never kicking hairs or threatening. It just did what it did after the first day when I had to pick her up to switch enclosures. I don't know. Makes my head hurt trying to figure it out...but yeah, I don't want to risk anything. And don't know if I am even if I do or don't. Ts were never meant to be kept by humans. Never meant to live in little enclosures. It's all done for human enjoyment. Do Ts adapt or tolerate? Based on that huge discussion they very well might. It's really hard to say.
 

pwilson5

Arachnoknight
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
202
you CANT win this argument raine.. not trying to be mean.. no one "wins" in these kinda threads.. its opinionated.. there are 500000000 threads on handling.. and they are all pretty much like this one..

its a topic you dont talk about.. because.. once again.. it wont end well and you wont "win" lol
 

Raine

Arachnopeon
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
10
:D I know! I just realized this about, oh...15 minutes ago when I read yet more threads on this? It's the same couple people arguing it and they'll keep arguing it until they die, so I'm just gonna' call it an end to this thread. IMO is all the thread is turning out to be. lol* I decided I'll just send PM's to my fellow handlers or people who are in between and not mention it to the others. :rolleyes:
 

Fran

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
1,533
I decided I'll just send PM's to my fellow handlers or people who are in between and not mention it to the others. :rolleyes: [/FONT]
Thats the worst thing you can do if you want to learn.
 

Fran

Arachnoprince
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Nov 8, 2007
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How much the handling stress affects them? We dont know.

That stress afect them? Yes, thats a fact. Any animal under stress do poorly.

Handling is a non necessary stress? Yes, it is. Taking the T out of her habitat to handle her around your hands, or lap , or bed, or wherever you like, that is stress.
Therefore, will they do worse with regular handling that with none at all? Yes, they will.
 

KnightinGale

Arachnoknight
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
170
Raine, Haha, I thought you had decided to not reply anymore a page or two ago. I want to definitely agree not to underestimate the speed your tarantula can move, ANY tarantula. She chooses to move slowly when she is exploring or when she sees no need for speed, but she could cross her enclosure before you even knew she had moved if she chose.
Also, while most species have a basic temperment that is at least anectodally known amongst keepers, you always do have to be prepared for the fact that you may get an exception. Nothing to panic over, just be sure not to assume a temperment before you get to know the tarantula. In the Guide, the Schultz's mention 1 B. vagans they had out of...oh, I can't remember...I'm pretty sure it was over ten. They kept the species lots before and all were docile and calm and typical. But one was a perfect lady sometimes, and then other times would flick hairs for no reason or otherwise be skittish. I have a B. smithi who is just the same way. Sometimes she will ignore everything around her. Other times she'll kick hairs for opening the lid of her enclosure or occasionally have a bit of a go at the tongs when I am doing maintenance. You'll see examples like that go by now and then.
 

JimM

Arachnoangel
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Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Messages
873
How much the handling stress affects them? We dont know.

That stress afect them? Yes, thats a fact. Any animal under stress do poorly.

Handling is a non necessary stress? Yes, it is. Taking the T out of her habitat to handle her around your hands, or lap , or bed, or wherever you like, that is stress.
Therefore, will they do worse with regular handling that with none at all? Yes, they will.
With respect Fran I haven't seen any evidence of this.
I think you're taking what I've agreed is arguably a wise practice, (not handling) and contending that the practice not only causes stress to the Tarantula (a debatable assumption on your part) but causes long term health issues as well.

Primitive animals such as arthropods don't seem to suffer from psychological stress. Unlike say a bird, or even some of the more intelligent fish, as well as some reptiles, and all mammals. All of the aforementioned groups can experience psychological stress, resulting in a crashed immune system, disease, and sometimes death as a result. This is different from physical stress, which I think we can agree we're not subjecting a Tarantula to when we're handling it.

The contention then becomes that the tarantula is experiencing psychological stress, which I just don't buy. Not only from a biological standpoint, but from an empirical/experiential standpoint. The tarantula from my perspective is not aware that a large, possibly predatory creature is holding it. I don't think it has the intellect to experiences an anxiety attack, elevated blood pressure, or anything of the like that would lead to an actual realized health issue.

Fran I respect your husbandry practices, and your devotion to your animals. If I was a T, and had to be in a cage, I'd hope to be on your shelf. I think for the purposes of this particular debate however, we should stick to what we know, and what seems logical given the family that we're dealing with here.

Handling can lead to a fall/dropped T resulting in physical injury or death to the animal. Handling certain species can also result in a painful bite and physical trauma to the keeper. Handling should therefore be done on a selective basis and in a sensible manner, if at all.
That's a fair statement, and I think we should leave it at that.

Peace
 

Lorum

Arachnosquire
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
111
It doesn't benefit it to be in caged or ogled at either.
Actually, tarantulas in captivity live longer (well, they have a larger life span) than tarantulas in the wild. Being caged has some benefits like the absence of predators (I'm not saying I would like to get caged, LOL) and others.

I also noted a lot of people are mentioning that their Ts became more docile with handling. But that's the thing...mine was never kicking hairs or threatening.
Not I, nor you nor ohter people know if they became more docile (I highly doubt that) or being under constant stress provoque a disminution in their natural irritability. If they were mammals, I would know for sure they get used to handling (they can see me, and know who I am), but being T's...

Also, leave them alone for some weeks and they will return to be the animals they were before, and goodbye to all the "docility".

This is different from physical stress, which I think we can agree we're not subjecting a Tarantula to when we're handling it.
See it this way. If you handle a tarantula that, like most T's I know, get scared when it feels an enourmous hand approaching, it will run, try to hide, etc.

Tarantulas need high haemolymph pressure while running, because they lack extensor muscles in some of the leg joints. Doesn't that probably makes their heart to beat faster and increases the production of neurotransmitters (for a fast muscle's response)? Also, doesn't they get tired soon (while running) due to the lack of enough oxygen? Their respiratory system doesn't allow them to use great ammounts of energy, and "taking a walk" everyday for a lot of years would probably reduce their life span. Tarantulas are not wandering spiders, they don't walk that much in their habitats if they can avoid it (well, MM's do).

One evolutive strategy of T's is to have a low metabolic rate. If a tarantula is constantly stressed, it is probable that its heart will work harder than it should under normal circumstances, and their mitochondria too (the more they work, the less it lives).

But hey, I'm not saying I know it all. Those are just probabilities.
 
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JimM

Arachnoangel
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Nov 6, 2003
Messages
873
See it this way. If you handle a tarantula that, like most T's I know, get scared when it feels an enourmous hand approaching, they run, try to hide themselves, etc.
"Get scared" is a psychological response, something we don't see in crabs, lobsters, ticks, tarantulas, etc. They have more or less hard wired responses to various stimuli, including threats. I can pull a crab out of the water, play with it for a while, fling it back into my reef tank where it lands and continues to graze the rocks in the tank. Does that sound like a stressed animal? Not only did I handle it, I took out of the water! A stressed animal doesn't continue to eat, and hides, it turns pale, it behaves in an abnormal fashion. Just like a fish would if I subjected it to the same treatment.

The dash to cover from an approaching hand is most probably not accompanied by an "OH CRAP...oh crap ohcrap ohcrap ohcrap!!" panic response in the animals head. It's also from a logical standpoint physically/phsyiologically no different from a thousand other dashes for cover for a thousand other reasons that happen every day in the life of a tarantula. Heck some of my pokeys dash around their cages when I just open the cabinet door, not handling involved. No different from another animal walking by their hide in the wild and scaring them back into their hole.

If we were talking about say monitor lizards, a group with which I have lots of experience as well, then yeah we'd have a good case for handling "stress" in the context which it seems to be projected onto Theraphosids here.
 

Lorum

Arachnosquire
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
111
"Get scared" is a psychological response, something we don't see in crabs, lobsters, ticks, tarantulas, etc. They have more or less hard wired responses to various stimuli, including threats. I can pull a crab out of the water, play with it for a while, fling it back into my reef tank where it lands and continues to graze the rocks in the tank. Does that sound like a stressed animal? Not only did I handle it, I took out of the water! A stressed animal doesn't continue to eat, and hides, it turns pale, it behaves in an abnormal fashion. Just like a fish would if I subjected it to the same treatment.
OK, they don't get scared, their natural irritability (insctinct) "makes" them run, hide, etc.

Anyway, that doesn't mean that I said everything wrong. I didn't read any response from you about the other things I said. Being scared or no, they run, hide, etc. and that could reduce their life span (after several days, maybe years), when people handle their T's in a regular basis.

And, BTW, I'm an animal, I'm stressed and I still eat, I'm not pale, etc. Maybe you mean animals under extreme stress conditions. Edit: Most T's I have seen refuse food for some time after being handled.
 
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JimM

Arachnoangel
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Nov 6, 2003
Messages
873
And, BTW, I'm an animal, I'm stressed and I still eat, I'm not pale, etc. Maybe you mean animals under extreme stress conditions.
You also can drive a car, get a checking account, buy a Justin Biebor CD and use a computer. I'm obviously using the term "animal" to describe other genera.

Fish, birds, reptiles, many mammals will not eat when stressed. Arthropods are a lower order of life, and don't "stress" in the same way is my only point.

Again, we a have legit, easily demonstrated reason why you can suggest, if you wish, that a tarantula shouldn't be handled without projecting factors which as far as we know don't exist.

Your above points are well taken however.
 

JimM

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
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Nov 6, 2003
Messages
873
On a side note, I have a small maybe 2" versi (looks to be a female) that is an absolute witch with B. She turns and bites anything that touches her, much like Rob C's large female versi.

One Avic I won't go out of my way to handle as she grows. :rolleyes:
 
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