Too rare to handle?

Redneck

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Raine.. I am ging to go with this.. Your T is in a new environment.. Its just checking out its surroundings.. In due time it will settle & do less climbing.. (Unless of course its a MM.. But without pictures I will not say that is the case! Just a thought..)

Plus.. As Joe (xhexdx) suggested.. The substrate could be to wet/damp for the Ts likings..
 

P. Novak

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As long as you take the right precautions so your T doesnt get hurt I dont see a major problem with a little occasional handling.

One could argue not to handle because its "unnecessarry". Thats true but Isnt keeping them in your house in a cage is unnecessarry too? We only keep them for our enjoyment. And people also handle them for thier own enjoyment. I dont see the harm in holding your favorite docile specimen in a safe manner. They will get over the "stress". Some seem to have a high level of stress when handled, others seem not to mind at all. I dont see my B. smithi huddling in a corner pouting after I take him out to show people they are not monsters.

IMO The whole arguement of it being "unnecessarry and only for the greed of the owner" on anti-handling is pretty feeble when were talking about docile Ts.

Keep in mind i dont coddle my Ts everyday or hold them like some kind of mammal thinking they like it. More like when I rehouse or show them to the occasional house guest.


Exactly what I was thinking. This is the best thing I've seen written since returning back to the hobby. :clap:

I'm pro-handling, but not if I know the T will bite or try to run fractiously, then hands off.
 

Stewjoe

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I have always thought the same thing, blowing on it or misting "stresses it out" but in the rain forest it rains daily, and there can be wicked wind storms in arid climates. I think as long as they have a dry cosey home to run to they will be fine.
So how do...lets say an A. versicolour interpret a storm? The spider is way up high in the forest canopy and the wind is blowing like crazy. According to some the "simple minded spider" can't remember anything nor can it reason what is actually happening.
How do they get by with these random stressful events in the wild?
 

Raine

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No, the substrate isn't too wet. Not even nearly so. I misted the tank soil and it was mildly damp for a bit then dried over the course of a couple hours. I checked the site on how damp the soil should be. So that's not the issue.

I think maybe Redneck has a point? New environment and checking it out sounds reasonable as a theory. Because there is nothing wrong with the enclosure. It is safe, warm enough, set up well and sometimes misted but more often dry with a shallow water dish in there.

I think occasional handling is fine. I don't keep her out for hours. Maybe a few minutes here or there right now. I don't know...people keep saying on here that the spiders have zero clue what is going on. How anyone presumes to know a spider's mind though is beyond me. Don't they have sensory capabilities? If they do it is plausible it can associate an individual as non-threatening by scent or another sensory action. Even if they don't recognize the individual in the true sense of the meaning they can recognize safe and unsafe...? Because when my nosy dog went to sniff her from a little distance away she reared up for a moment and seemed skittish. It was only there a brief second and she relaxed when it left.

Redneck what's an MM? Sorry for my newness but I'm not familiar with the abbreviation.
 

Redneck

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No, the substrate isn't too wet. Not even nearly so. I misted the tank soil and it was mildly damp for a bit then dried over the course of a couple hours. I checked the site on how damp the soil should be. So that's not the issue.

I think maybe Redneck has a point? New environment and checking it out sounds reasonable as a theory. Because there is nothing wrong with the enclosure. It is safe, warm enough, set up well and sometimes misted but more often dry with a shallow water dish in there.

I think occasional handling is fine. I don't keep her out for hours. Maybe a few minutes here or there right now. I don't know...people keep saying on here that the spiders have zero clue what is going on. How anyone presumes to know a spider's mind though is beyond me. Don't they have sensory capabilities? If they do it is plausible it can associate an individual as non-threatening by scent or another sensory action. Even if they don't recognize the individual in the true sense of the meaning they can recognize safe and unsafe...? Because when my nosy dog went to sniff her from a little distance away she reared up for a moment and seemed skittish. It was only there a brief second and she relaxed when it left.

Redneck what's an MM? Sorry for my newness but I'm not familiar with the abbreviation.
MM is Mature Male...
 

Fran

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I think occasional handling is fine. I don't keep her out for hours. Maybe a few minutes here or there right now. I don't know...people keep saying on here that the spiders have zero clue what is going on. How anyone presumes to know a spider's mind though is beyond me.
Thats what YOU are doing.
 

Raine

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Fran the advice is appreciated and it's great you're so passionate about T's...but could you please try and understand not everyone is of the same mind about handling? You come across as upset that I am not sure I agree with it. I didn't say I know what the tarantula is thinking either...or how their minds work. I simply stated that if I see no ill effects or signs of stress I will handle it on occasion. There are people who agree with it and people who don't. From everything I've researched there is nothing harmful to the G. Rosea about handling it on occasion. If I find proof otherwise I will certainly rethink it.

Proof as in solid proof it is harmful or stressful on them and affects their mental or physical well being. In the meantime I am one of those who enjoys occasional handling and will continue to do so. :)
 

Fran

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Fran the advice is appreciated and it's great you're so passionate about T's...but could you please try and understand not everyone is of the same mind about handling? You come across as upset that I am not sure I agree with it. I didn't say I know what the tarantula is thinking either...or how their minds work. I simply stated that if I see no ill effects or signs of stress I will handle it on occasion. There are people who agree with it and people who don't. From everything I've researched there is nothing harmful to the G. Rosea about handling it on occasion. If I find proof otherwise I will certainly rethink it.

Proof as in solid proof it is harmful or stressful on them and affects their mental or physical well being. In the meantime I am one of those who enjoys occasional handling and will continue to do so. :)
Because when you say stuff like " A little handling is fine" or "I dont see ill effects" that doesnt mean anything scientifically speaking.

Thats your opinion and your perception, that doesnt mean anything.
You would need several experiments with several individuals, some being handled and some not. And maybe, during the years, you could get ann acceptable answer.

It is a proven fact that animals under stress do poorly compared to animals under "normal" circumstances.

So...what can I say, opinions are like colors.
 

Treynok

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Threads like this have been beaten to death. Some people handle their T's and some people don't. Nothing anyone posts is probably going to change any minds. I don't handle anything unless absolutely necessary, like posted previously there is no point to except your enjoyment. All my stuff seems very content in their enclosures and I'm content observing and providing care. I don't see a need to take an unnecessary risk but then again I don't have my T's to get enjoyment out of handling them. Everyone does things for their own reasons and that is okay with me if you choose to do so. I would just expect that in case there were an injury or death due to it you would already know what to do in the situation and not come running for help because you knew enough to know how to handle them but don't know what to do in an emergency caused by it.

I don't say handle or don't handle it's up to you and nothing would stop you if you had the intention of handling in the first place most likely except maybe first hand experience which we can all hope never happens.

Like stated though I don't see the monetary value or rarity of a specimen to be a factor.
 

Raine

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Well, I know a G. Rosea breeder. I also happen to know he has females he handles and females he does not. The females he handles are no different in life span and behavior than the ones he doesn't. I know because I asked him about this the other day. But since it was just one person's experience I decided to poke around with questions on the board. Plus I know a G. Rosea keeper who had four. He didn't handle three of them, he handled one every week a few times a week. The one he handled suffered no ill effects and lived for over fifteen years. He is the father of a friend of mine. So I can say that from people I have talked to who have multiple Chilian Rose T's there has been no notable difference between handling or not handling. All of them ate the same, had the same type of enclosure, were fed the same thing. The handled one lived longer than two of them, but died a year before one of the un-handled ones.

So there is some proof it's okay to occasionally handle. If it stresses them out a bit it doesn't seem to have ill effects. I would think that T's, like other creatures such as reptiles and scorpions, would display signs of stress like not eating or becoming irate...but they don't. So yeah, opinions are like colors, I suppose. But I did do my research and did talk to breeders, too.
 

Stewjoe

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Personally I don't believe the more docile T's even know their being handled. They probably think they are on a large odd colored tree swaying in the wind after escaping from the thing that was poking their butt. I'm not saying they enjoy it or recommend it but I'm pretty sure they would bite if they knew what was going on.
 

Fran

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Well, I know a G. Rosea breeder. I also happen to know he has females he handles and females he does not. The females he handles are no different in life span and behavior than the ones he doesn't. I know because I asked him about this the other day. But since it was just one person's experience I decided to poke around with questions on the board. Plus I know a G. Rosea keeper who had four. He didn't handle three of them, he handled one every week a few times a week. The one he handled suffered no ill effects and lived for over fifteen years. He is the father of a friend of mine. So I can say that from people I have talked to who have multiple Chilian Rose T's there has been no notable difference between handling or not handling. All of them ate the same, had the same type of enclosure, were fed the same thing. The handled one lived longer than two of them, but died a year before one of the un-handled ones.

So there is some proof it's okay to occasionally handle. If it stresses them out a bit it doesn't seem to have ill effects. I would think that T's, like other creatures such as reptiles and scorpions, would display signs of stress like not eating or becoming irate...but they don't. So yeah, opinions are like colors, I suppose. But I did do my research and did talk to breeders, too.
Im sorry but that is not valid proof, in the least.

Scientific method
 

Raine

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I digress. You said yourself that if someone had many and watched for years that it would be proof enough. Yet I know a breeder who has and you tell me it is not in the least valid proof. And I know a keeper who has, but that's not any proof either? I think I agree with the other user. No one is going to change anyone's minds. Even with some proof or without it. :)
 

Fran

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I digress. You said yourself that if someone had many and watched for years that it would be proof enough. Yet I know a breeder who has and you tell me it is not in the least valid proof. And I know a keeper who has, but that's not any proof either? I think I agree with the other user. No one is going to change anyone's minds. Even with some proof or without it. :)
You are not quite familiar with the scientific method.
"I heard", "They have told me" ...that doesnt mean ANYTHING in science. :)


So what you are telling me is that that people have had a couple of hundred Grammostola rosea,raised them from slings, perform the experiment for what, 20-25 years till all of the spiders died. Then using science and the possible variables have told you the results?

No.It didnt happenmed. ;)
 

AgentD006las

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Well, I know a G. Rosea breeder. I also happen to know he has females he handles and females he does not. The females he handles are no different in life span and behavior than the ones he doesn't. I know because I asked him about this the other day. But since it was just one person's experience I decided to poke around with questions on the board. Plus I know a G. Rosea keeper who had four. He didn't handle three of them, he handled one every week a few times a week. The one he handled suffered no ill effects and lived for over fifteen years. He is the father of a friend of mine. So I can say that from people I have talked to who have multiple Chilian Rose T's there has been no notable difference between handling or not handling. All of them ate the same, had the same type of enclosure, were fed the same thing. The handled one lived longer than two of them, but died a year before one of the un-handled ones.

So there is some proof it's okay to occasionally handle. If it stresses them out a bit it doesn't seem to have ill effects. I would think that T's, like other creatures such as reptiles and scorpions, would display signs of stress like not eating or becoming irate...but they don't. So yeah, opinions are like colors, I suppose. But I did do my research and did talk to breeders, too.
Honestly you dont know how old either of those Ts are. You said your G. rosea is 3 years old. Highly unlikely. They are extremley slow growers. You have posted your opinion on things but there are alot of facts you do not know. Such as misting a G. rosea. The habitat they are from hasnt seen rain since they started to keep track. The Atacama desert. And there are no "G. rosea breeders". Any tarantula breeder will advise against breeding this species. And when they do they go for free. Also When people produce sacs from them they are usually wild bred and captive hatched.
 
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JimM

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I rarely handle even my docile T's, since I simply don't feel the need to do so.
That being said, I have ZERO attachment to whether or not someone else handles their animals.

Frankly I don't understand the militant "YOU SHOULDN'T EVER HANDLE YOUR TARANTULAS....EVER!!! IT'S WRONG!!!" stance.

If you don't want to handle them then great, don't handle them and get on with your day. Just don't get bent when someone posts that careful, sensible handling of appropriate species is harmless if done correctly. I've seen no empirical data to lead me to believe it stresses them or has any negative impact on their health whatsoever.

I avoid it simply because of they're fragility, and it's an easily avoided risk factor.
 

Fran

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I've seen no empirical data to lead me to believe it stresses them or has any negative impact on their health whatsoever. QUOTE]
Me neither , but by association, it leeds me to believe that the less handling-streess, the better.
 

JimM

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I've seen no empirical data to lead me to believe it stresses them or has any negative impact on their health whatsoever. QUOTE]
Me neither , but by association, it leeds me to believe that the less handling-streess, the better.
Well you're certainly erring in favor of the animal, and that's never a bad thing.
 

Lorum

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Nothing anyone posts is probably going to change any minds.
Maybe that's true. If people who handle their T's in a regular basis doesn't see a lot of dead tarantulas due to handling, they won't stop doing it.

The truth is: If you handle a tarantula, even a lot, it probably will not die. Does it get stressed? Most probably it does, you can notice (most times) it in the way they move, run, hide or the way they react in general.

BUT... People handling they T's can't say "It is just fine" or "She/he doesn't mind to be handled" or "He/she is perfectly healthy"... They just don't know, nobody knows (unless the T itself get some kind of visible injury). Stressed T's probably live a shorter life, who knows. All I know is that I don't like to see my T's scared of being handled. Theraphosids can't talk, can't bark, can't complain, so how could anyone be 100% sure that their T's are doing great (handling or not)? Some people think that if they succesfully produce eggsacs and slings they are just great, I don't share that opinion. Well, we all have different opinions/experiences.

I respect what everyone do with their T's, I just don't like the fact that some people handle them and think they know everything about its health (nobody in particular, it is just something I have seen through time). I don't handle my T's unless it is absolutely necesary, but I accept the fact that other people do (even when I don't like it).

P.S. I think we should do what we think it is better for the animals (apart from being kept in captivity) based on information, and not what is better for us. If we have enclosed them for life, I think we must provide the best we can for they. And yes, they suffer stress in their habitat and etc. etc. but that doesn't mean we should provide it in captivity... or should we provide predators, parasites and everything else they can find in their natural habitats? All this post was a big "IMO", hope nobody feel offense.
 
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