To breed or not to breed

[Angel Minkov]

I really don't see the point of leaving him in till she kills him or even worse he harms her.

The more time the male spends with the female the bigger the chance he'll have good inserts.

 

[Abyss]

The more time the male spends with the female the bigger the chance he'll have good inserts.

Thats prob valid, since cohabbing overnite means u dont actually know he got it done. The more nights, the higher the probability he will man up lmao

Keeper:
Get in there little guy, show us what your made of!!!
MM: screw that, have u seen how big she is?!?!?!?
Keeper:
Put on your big boy panties an man up!!!!
MM:
Pray for me, im going in

Hahahaha

 

[Trenor]

The more time the male spends with the female the bigger the chance he'll have good inserts.

Not really. I've seen videos of good insertions in minutes of Ts being introduced and some that took much longer. That's just dependent on how the hook up goes. Regardless of how long it took for the inserts to happen once they did...

The male runs like hell in to hiding till removed. At this point, he isn't going to try again. If this was the wild he would be looking for a second female to try to make good with. He wouldn't be sticking around to try this one again.

The female is only going to be receptive to the male until she gets what she needs. Once that happens she doesn't want him around if she is full and he is just a handy snack if she isn't.

IMO leaving him in after that doesn't improve anything except the chance of him being eaten.

Thats prob valid, since cohabbing overnite means u dont actually know he got it done.

If you pair overnight overnight and they were flirting/tapping/bobbing before you went to bed. Then when you wake up he is on the other side of the enclosure and she isn't in the mood anymore. It's safe to say he got the job done. If later she come back to the side he is housed on and starts flirting again then give him a second run. Leaving him in when she isn't having it is just asking for him to be a snack IMO.

 

[EulersK]

I couldn't agree more with @Trenor. I really don't like how many people in this hobby treat mature males. They're not disposable, they're still living creatures. Locking them in with a female after the deed has been done is just sacrificing the male for no reason.

And from a keeper's standpoint, why would you want that? I bought a B. emilia MM for my female for about $300. I paired him, it was more than successful, and I turned around and sold him for $350. I shipped off a P. striata male after I was done using him to @cold blood for a future trade of a MM C. darlingi. The point is that you can always do something with a male.

 

[Abyss]

Not really. I've seen videos of good insertions in minutes of Ts being introduced and some that took much longer. That's just dependent on how the hook up goes. Regardless of how long it took for the inserts to happen once they did...

The male runs like hell in to hiding till removed. At this point, he isn't going to try again. If this was the wild he would be looking for a second female to try to make good with. He wouldn't be sticking around to try this one again.

The female is only going to be receptive to the male until she gets what she needs. Once that happens she doesn't want him around if she is full and he is just a handy snack if she isn't.

IMO leaving him in after that doesn't improve anything except the chance of him being eaten.


If you pair overnight overnight and they were flirting/tapping/bobbing before you went to bed. Then when you wake up he is on the other side of the enclosure and she isn't in the mood anymore. It's safe to say he got the job done. If later she come back to the side he is housed on and starts flirting again then give him a second run. Leaving him in when she isn't having it is just asking for him to be a snack IMO.

Yea im not meaning (or planning) to leave him in past his welcome, im def waking up an extra 5 min early to pull him each fay and wait for the signals to go again if needed.

 

[Abyss]

I couldn't agree more with @Trenor. I really don't like how many people in this hobby treat mature males. They're not disposable, they're still living creatures. Locking them in with a female after the deed has been done is just sacrificing the male for no reason.

And from a keeper's standpoint, why would you want that? I bought a B. emilia MM for my female for about $300. I paired him, it was more than successful, and I turned around and sold him for $350. I shipped off a P. striata male after I was done using him to @cold blood for a future trade of a MM C. darlingi. The point is that you can always do something with a male.

For sure

 

[Trenor]

Yea im not meaning (or planning) to leave him in past his welcome, im def waking up an extra 5 min early to pull him each fay and wait for the signals to go again if needed.

No worries man. I was just speaking in general not to you.

 

[Abyss]

No worries man. I was just speaking in general not to you.

For sure, just didnt want any miscommunication of any sort haha

 

[Angel Minkov]

They're exactly that - disposable. Passing on their genes is the only thing that matters to them. After you cycle the male through all the females you have I'd just sell him or leave him in with a female of my choice.

And saying leaving him in for longer doesn't increase your odds for a fertile sac is just logical fallacy lol

 

[Jeff23]

They're exactly that - disposable. Passing on their genes is the only thing that matters to them. After you cycle the male through all the females you have I'd just sell him or leave him in with a female of my choice.

And saying leaving him in for longer doesn't increase your odds for a fertile sac is just logical fallacy lol

There is nothing "disposable" about any tarantula. The fact that we get to have them in our homes should be considered as a gift. But I suppose that is your easy way out huh?

 

[Trenor]

They're exactly that - disposable. Passing on their genes is the only thing that matters to them. After you cycle the male through all the females you have I'd just sell him or leave him in with a female of my choice.

And saying leaving him in for longer doesn't increase your odds for a fertile sac is just logical fallacy lol

Regardless of what value you place on the male. Once she has what she needs from him she will not let him approach her again without attacking to run him off or kill him. How is leaving him in going to improve your odds? Are you unsure he got the job done so you leave him in in the hopes he does before being killed? If you take him out and he didn't get good inserts then she will approach and present/tap/bob to show she is wanting another go. So you can then go for another try.

I think people consider tarantulas or inverts breeding as if they were mammals breeding. They are not. Growing up on a farm we would pair animals often over a period of time to improve the chance the female would conceive. This is because if she doesn't store his sperm. So if the conditions are not right, she is not ovulating etc, when he pairs she will discard the unused sperm and nothing will happen.

With a T, as long as the male gets the sperm where it belongs she can store it. So even if the condition are not right for her to produce she can wait till they are without further need of the male. Then she can use the sperm in the future all the way up till she molts. She has all the sperm she needs to lay her eggs. Giving her more sperm doesn't help and that's why she chases him off or kills him. As I said before and you mentioned he wants to pass on his genes (we all are driven to do so). So in the wild if he survives a pairing he goes off to find a new female to pass on more sperm to. He doesn't try again with the same female. Why is that? Because it pointless when she already has what she needs.

At this point, what else can he do when you leave him in that helps improve anything?

Not stating why you consider something incorrect while crying logical fallacy is kind of silly. Which logical fallacy do you think I committed? Was it all of the logical fallacies? I see this all the time on the internet and I honestly don't think people understand what a logical fallacy is or what it means to commit one. It wold have been better to say you though my statement was illogical and then state why you thought that was so.

 

[EulersK]

And saying leaving him in for longer doesn't increase your odds for a fertile sac is just logical fallacy lol

As has been said, I don't think that means what you think it means.

But regardless, that statement shows that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of arachnid physiology. Trenor was kind enough to explain it quite well. Leaving him in for longer does not increase the odds of a good insertion. My female C. fimbriatus was tapping at my male wildly until I paired them, and it went amazingly. Absolutely guaranteed insertion. She stopped tapping at him overnight, and even he stopped tapping at her. Why? Because the deed was done. By your logic, I should put him back in there. To what end, exactly?

 

[Angel Minkov]

Oh, then my female Poecilotheria are stupid if they pair multiple times with the male over a period of months... I guess my spiders are the odd one out AGAIN.

 

[Jeff23]

Oh, then my female Poecilotheria are stupid if they pair multiple times with the male over a period of months... I guess my spiders are the odd one out AGAIN.

So please explain how you are getting multiple egg sacs over a "period of months". I believe the first insert provided you the same number of egg sacs (1) and a safe male tarantula unless I am missing something here.

 

[Angel Minkov]

I wouldn't know, but what I do know is that my female miranda which produced a very healthy (I think, I have my doubts) sac a few months back spent 4 months with the male in her enclosure, basically spending all her time next to him. I'm not sure EulersK even realizes I'm talking strictly about Poecilotheria for him/her to throw in a fossorial as an example lol

 

[EulersK]

I'm not sure EulersK even realizes I'm talking strictly about Poecilotheria for him/her to throw in a fossorial as an example lol

I can only base a discussion on what has been brought up. That genus wasn't mentioned in your posts until just two posts ago. It's always been "the male" and "they" - very generalized vocabulary, so I can only assume you're speaking generally. I can't comment on something that was in your head but not in writing.

The more time the male spends with the female the bigger the chance he'll have good inserts.

They're exactly that - disposable. Passing on their genes is the only thing that matters to them. After you cycle the male through all the females you have I'd just sell him or leave him in with a female of my choice.

 

[Angel Minkov]

If you had taken the time to read my posts on page 2 you would've been more informed of the genus I was talking about ^^

 

[Trenor]

Wow, those breeding plans are all over the place man. None of your pairing advice is the same across your posts.

You went from:

large enclosure, female 1 month after molting, toss male in, leave him in there until he's eventually food. Simple.

Obviously if you have multiple females you pair up, remove him and cycle through the others, but if its just the one I'd leave him in there for good.

Send him around once to all the females you want to breed then leave him in with one till he becomes food. (Only a single successful breeding attempt per female then leave him to be a snack)

To:

Oh, then my female Poecilotheria are stupid if they pair multiple times with the male over a period of months... I guess my spiders are the odd one out AGAIN.

Your MM T is Don Juan knocking up several females multiple times over many months. (Pass him around to the all females multiple times over several months)

And finally:

I wouldn't know, but what I do know is that my female miranda which produced a very healthy (I think, I have my doubts) sac a few months back spent 4 months with the male in her enclosure, basically spending all her time next to him. I'm not sure EulersK even realizes I'm talking strictly about Poecilotheria for him/her to throw in a fossorial as an example lol

My P.marinda pair became home makers for four months because he understood her need to cuddle. (Leaving him in with one female for long term living)

Maybe all of them work.

I can only speak to how it happens in the wild. He finds a female. If she is receptive he tries to get good inserts without becoming a snack. If he does his job (good inserts) she becomes very un-receptive to him trying to hook up again. If he makes it out alive he goes looking for another female. Repeat till he doesn't make it out or dies while looking for more females.

Which is why I plan to go this route:

I am getting a P.fasciata MM for my girl in the next week. She molted not long ago. I checked her last molt to make sure she was mature and got a second opinion (thanks CB). I'm feeding her up really well and will do the same for the male when he comes in. They will be housed beside each other and hopefully the drumming/interest will happen. At that point I plan to introduce the male and barring any hostilities leave him in over night. I'll take him out the next morning and keep him housed beside the female. If they drum/flirt more later I may consider introducing him again. Otherwise I'll hold on to him till she drops a sack or I find someone who might need him.

I really don't see the point of leaving him in till she kills him or even worse he harms her. You really don't gain anything from it. If he is left in and ends up as food then he doesn't provide better nourishment than what a fat roach or two will. Even if I don't need him after the first breeding attempt because everything went great. I'm content with just enjoying him with whatever time he has left.

Good luck on however you finally decide to breed your Ts man.

 

[Angel Minkov]

Across all those posts I literally reiterate the same strategy, I don't know why it seems different to you ^^ I'm interested if you have any peer-reviewed papers where male/female behavior is extremely well documented in the wild, e.g hundreds if not thousands of specimens followed closely to monitor their reactions prior to, or after, mating. I put a male P. subfusca LL with my female about 3 months ago and she still hasn't eaten him. If anything, he's hogging the food she's not eating and they share the same hide. They both seem very content with the way they're living. If the male wants to escape, the enclosure is large enough for him to do so.

(Only a single successful breeding attempt per female then leave him to be a snack)

I'll break it down for you, because apparently I was misunderstood - male, female, enclosure. You take the male, put him in the female's enclosure, take him out after a week, 2 weeks, a month. Its your call. Move him from the first female's enclosure to the second female's enclosure. Repeat with as many females you want to pair, be it 2/3/4 or more. Eventually, leave him in with a female of your choice permanently or sell him/loan him. Leaving in males for prolonged periods of time with females is endorsed here, in Europe, and I think we've got a few decent breeders here ^^

 

[EulersK]

I'm interested if you have any peer-reviewed papers where male/female behavior is extremely well documented in the wild, e.g hundreds if not thousands of specimens followed closely to monitor their reactions prior to, or after, mating.

That's such a common cop-out on these forums Do you have the same for your way of doing things?

I think the only reason we're butting heads is because you're actively calling animals disposable. That's where we have issues, not the fact that they're left together. No animal is disposable and should all be treated with respect. Needlessly and actively sacrificing them is not respect.