Theoretical mycosis treatment and plausible reasoning for higher mycosis cases in recent SE asian i

Scoly

Arachnobaron
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
422
Please don't reply to this as thanks to people like yourself I am closing my account.
Now now... I have not insulted you, or attacked you in any way. I corrected your incorrect facts (and did so politely, even apologising for doing it before I did) And yes, I did put you in your place a little when you attempted to ridicule me, but I'm not quite sure what else you expected.

I hope you don't close your account and decide to stick around. You need to understand that it's not because someone corrects you that they are attacking you as a person. It's also not because you posted something totally wrong, once, that everyone else will think you're stupid. Everyone is wrong at times. However, if you refuse to be corrected, initiate an attack on the person correcting, or use other low debating tactics like exaggerating what they have said, then yes, people will start to think a lot less of you. In fact you will gain a lot more respect from people by having a constructive attitude towards being wrong and corrected, than you ever will by being right.

Some other things I feel you could really do with being told:
  • If your response to being corrected is to attack the other person instead of admitting you got your facts wrong and learning from it, then you will never really learn, grow, progress or be respected by intelligent people.
  • If your response to being put in your place for such a response is to blame it all on the other person for being nasty and then run away, you will have serious trouble facing the real adversity in life.
My advice (which you didn't ask for but I'm giving you anyway) would be to seriously improve your response to these kind of scenarios, as they are going to repeat themselves throughout your life again and again, and how you respond has a massive impact on how much you'll learn, how far you'll get, and how good you'll feel - more than you can ever imagine. These things are not set, they can improve with practice as well as deteriorate with complacency.

Given where you're at, I'd say what you really need is a nice safe place where you can teach yourself to respond better, like an online gym. Perhaps some forum which is more fact-oriented rather than opinion-based (but not pedantically so), in a field which you already possess some knowledge of, where your name will be recognised but you are still kind of anonymous, where most people are nice and interested in the pursuit of knowledge rather than just bashing each other, and the people and share an interest with you, even if some are a bit sarcastic. That kind of place would be a golden opportunity not to be missed, and certainly not one to throw out on a whim :p

Anyway, hate me all you like, that was me reaching out to you.
 

l4nsky

Arachnoknight
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
238
Just spitballing here, but what about Pimafix baths? Its proven safe for marine invertebrates like coral and God knows how sensitive they are.

Thanks,
--Matt
 

REEFSPIDER

Arachnobaron
Joined
May 6, 2016
Messages
391
Just spitballing here, but what about Pimafix baths? Its proven safe for marine invertebrates like coral and God knows how sensitive they are.

Thanks,
--Matt
I don't know about baths but I have heard of some keepers over seas implicating the use of intravenous antibiotics to treat mycosis in both scorpions and centipedes. The info I've gotten is very minimal but they imply this is the best method for treating mycosis internally. As far as recommended dosing or even suggested antibiotic I have no clue.

I also just want to reiterate the purpose of this thread is not to create some new 1 way cures all end all be all solution, but more an opening up of more on the theory and similar theories aswell as sharing data with those who care to contribute their own data or theories. It's up to keepers to do what they want and I'm not looking to 'tell keepers' anything. If this information becomes beneficial to the hobby, well good. If not, i enjoyed hearing Almost everyones replies. Cheers
 
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Dry Desert

Arachnobaron
Active Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
514
Now now... I have not insulted you, or attacked you in any way. I corrected your incorrect facts (and did so politely, even apologising for doing it before I did) And yes, I did put you in your place a little when you attempted to ridicule me, but I'm not quite sure what else you expected.

I hope you don't close your account and decide to stick around. You need to understand that it's not because someone corrects you that they are attacking you as a person. It's also not because you posted something totally wrong, once, that everyone else will think you're stupid. Everyone is wrong at times. However, if you refuse to be corrected, initiate an attack on the person correcting, or use other low debating tactics like exaggerating what they have said, then yes, people will start to think a lot less of you. In fact you will gain a lot more respect from people by having a constructive attitude towards being wrong and corrected, than you ever will by being right.

Some other things I feel you could really do with being told:
  • If your response to being corrected is to attack the other person instead of admitting you got your facts wrong and learning from it, then you will never really learn, grow, progress or be respected by intelligent people.
  • If your response to being put in your place for such a response is to blame it all on the other person for being nasty and then run away, you will have serious trouble facing the real adversity in life.
My advice (which you didn't ask for but I'm giving you anyway) would be to seriously improve your response to these kind of scenarios, as they are going to repeat themselves throughout your life again and again, and how you respond has a massive impact on how much you'll learn, how far you'll get, and how good you'll feel - more than you can ever imagine. These things are not set, they can improve with practice as well as deteriorate with complacency.

Given where you're at, I'd say what you really need is a nice safe place where you can teach yourself to respond better, like an online gym. Perhaps some forum which is more fact-oriented rather than opinion-based (but not pedantically so), in a field which you already possess some knowledge of, where your name will be recognised but you are still kind of anonymous, where most people are nice and interested in the pursuit of knowledge rather than just bashing each other, and the people and share an interest with you, even if some are a bit sarcastic. That kind of place would be a golden opportunity not to be missed, and certainly not one to throw out on a whim :p

Anyway, hate me all you like, that was me reaching out to you.
As a FINAL note especially for you and not directed at anyone one else on this forum. Obviously you are one of these that likes to give out an awful lot, but not very happy on having a little back.

Regarding me learning things etc. as I go through life,

I am 72 years old, have been keeping and breeding scorpions since 1978 when I spent 10 years in Saudi Arabia collecting and studying scorpions whilst there.

I now have 47 scorpions in my collection - NONE of which have Mycosis.

So I made the obviously FATAL error of thinking fungus and bacteria were one of the same --- BIG DEAL.
 

l4nsky

Arachnoknight
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
238
I don't know about baths but I have heard of some keepers over seas implicating the use of intravenous antibiotics to treat mycosis in both scorpions and centipedes. The info I've gotten is very minimal but they imply this is the best method for treating mycosis internally. As far as recommended dosing or even suggested antibiotic I have no clue.
Is it bad that I got a little bit of a chuckle out of picturing an S. dehaani pulling an IV cart around with its terminal legs?

I dont think we're really ever going to have a guaranteed cure. I mean, IV antibiotics might be highly effective, but I strongly doubt it would be available to your average keeper. At best, what we can hope for is some kind of general treatment that can knock back the infection enough to give the pede the advantage in the fight. That's why I'm thinking Pimafix. I've used it for years, in combination with Melafix, in my aquariums as both a broad spectrum treatment and preventative measure in newly acquired specimens for fungi (Pimafix) and bacteria (Melafix). It's all natural, made with extracts from the leaves of Pimenta racemosa which is known for antifungal properties.

Thanks,
--Matt
 

Scoly

Arachnobaron
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
422
As a FINAL note especially for you and not directed at anyone one else on this forum. Obviously you are one of these that likes to give out an awful lot, but not very happy on having a little back.

Regarding me learning things etc. as I go through life,

I am 72 years old, have been keeping and breeding scorpions since 1978 when I spent 10 years in Saudi Arabia collecting and studying scorpions whilst there.

I now have 47 scorpions in my collection - NONE of which have Mycosis.

So I made the obviously FATAL error of thinking fungus and bacteria were one of the same --- BIG DEAL.
And you did it again... :banghead:

No one is making a big deal about you confusing fungal and bacterial except you. You were corrected, and we moved on.

No one is attacking you. You got corrected on some information and decided to initiate an attack. Instead of attacking you back I took the time to give you a bit of advice on how better to manage your response to things in life because you clearly need it. That was me attempting to help out what seemed to me to be a young person who still hasn't learnt not to take corrections as a personal attack.

Now you can and launch a second attack implying I like to give but can't "have a little back", which kind of hits the nail on the head. I haven't been doing any "giving" of the kind you're talking about. Look through the messages, I have not once attacked you. As for me being able to "take a little back", I think calmly responding to your unprovoked attacks with reason and compassion instead of slipping into easy mode and ridiculing you covers that bit.

Your age and time in the hobby are irrelevant, you will be treated according to the quality of the information you share and the maturity which you display in your interactions.

So again, I implore you to stick around, and maybe re-read over the messages as many times as it takes for it to sink in that no one has attacked you, you were merely corrected on a couple of points which is no big deal, and everything else is just you throwing a tantrum at being wrong and trying to bully your way out by personal attacks, twisting words, waving your credentials around, and that despite all of that, we're still asking you to stick around instead of telling you to get lost.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of many other places on the Internet that would be so forgiving.
 

l4nsky

Arachnoknight
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
238
And you did it again... :banghead:

No one is making a big deal about you confusing fungal and bacterial except you. You were corrected, and we moved on.

No one is attacking you. You got corrected on some information and decided to initiate an attack. Instead of attacking you back I took the time to give you a bit of advice on how better to manage your response to things in life because you clearly need it. That was me attempting to help out what seemed to me to be a young person who still hasn't learnt not to take corrections as a personal attack.

Now you can and launch a second attack implying I like to give but can't "have a little back", which kind of hits the nail on the head. I haven't been doing any "giving" of the kind you're talking about. Look through the messages, I have not once attacked you. As for me being able to "take a little back", I think calmly responding to your unprovoked attacks with reason and compassion instead of slipping into easy mode and ridiculing you covers that bit.

Your age and time in the hobby are irrelevant, you will be treated according to the quality of the information you share and the maturity which you display in your interactions.

So again, I implore you to stick around, and maybe re-read over the messages as many times as it takes for it to sink in that no one has attacked you, you were merely corrected on a couple of points which is no big deal, and everything else is just you throwing a tantrum at being wrong and trying to bully your way out by personal attacks, twisting words, waving your credentials around, and that despite all of that, we're still asking you to stick around instead of telling you to get lost.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of many other places on the Internet that would be so forgiving.
Dont attack the messenger here, but maybe this is best taken to a private conversation to avoid derailing the thread?

Just a suggestion....

Thanks,
--Matt
 

Dry Desert

Arachnobaron
Active Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
514
Dont attack the messenger here, but maybe this is best taken to a private conversation to avoid derailing the thread?

Just a suggestion....

Thanks,
--Matt
No worries Matt - I'm done with this guy - but thanks.
 

Scoly

Arachnobaron
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
422
Apologies all for the tangent dealing with an old man throwing his toys out the pram - I think it's best we just ignore him for the time being.

But back to mycosis, as this is getting interesting...

I think l4nsky's suggestion that mycosis is caused by Aspergillus niger (i.e. black mould) is pretty reasonable considering it responsible for many fungal infections in both plants and animals. One personal observation which supports the idea of common widespread species as opposed to specialist fungus imported from the centipede's habitats is that I have seen it develop in captive bred pedelings on fresh substrate. Interestingly, this has only happened jars, which obviously don't have the best of ventilation (in my experience, jars become stale air traps if they are anything but bone dry with a fully meshed lid)

We would really need to get some tissue sample tested in a lab to confirm, although I have a suggestion for an alternative test. If we could get a small sample of infected material from an animal (e.g. snip the end off an infected antenna or leg) wash it in alcohol, and then set it on a semi-sterile substrate such as boiled fruit, and it grows into black mould, then we have a small bit of (pretty unscientific) support for the idea that we are dealing with a generalist species such as Aspergillus niger rather than an invertebrate specialising species. I say "semi-sterile" because the tissue sample itself will not be sterile. It's highly unscientific considering what else is liable to be on the fruit or the samples, but if repeated enough times, with control samples of fruit which do not come in contact with the infected tissue, and the infected samples show a statistically significant higher incidence of black mould instead of other types of fungus, then we are onto something.

As for cures, has anyone thought of trying over the counter oral antifungals in the pede's water dishes? I'd be willing to try that if I ever get a clutch of "disposable" centipedes or other animals.

I've also heard garlic touted as a cure for various infections, and indeed there is even a study which suggests it may be effective against Aspergillus niger: https://academic.oup.com/jac/article/53/5/832/747152

The plus side of garlic is that centipedes will readily lap up garlic puree :hungry: so bar the high salt content of commercial garlic puree, this could be a useful help in the recovery of mycosis (note that I said 'help' and 'could be' - I am not for one second implying it is a cure)

Back to the experiment side, has anyone got any suggestions of an easily bred invertebrate which is prone to mycosis which we could run trials on? I'm thinking phasmids or the like..?
 

Greasylake

Arachnoprince
Joined
Jul 23, 2017
Messages
1,321
I have a suggestion for an alternative test. If we could get a small sample of infected material from an animal (e.g. snip the end off an infected antenna or leg) wash it in alcohol, and then set it on a semi-sterile substrate such as boiled fruit, and it grows into black mould, then we have a small bit of (pretty unscientific) support for the idea that we are dealing with a generalist species such as Aspergillus niger rather than an invertebrate specialising species. I say "semi-sterile" because the tissue sample itself will not be sterile.
Would a petri dish work as well do you think? I have all the materials and have made a handful of them in the past with bacteria swabs.
 

l4nsky

Arachnoknight
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
238
Would a petri dish work as well do you think? I have all the materials and have made a handful of them in the past with bacteria swabs.
I know Aspergillus grows readily on Malt Extract Agar, as I've had a few dark mold contaminations on my mycelial culture plates over the years. We can probably go sterile instead of semi sterile for the cultures. There's a technique I've used for isolating mycelial cultures from small, wild collected mushrooms in the past. Typically, if you want sterile mycelium from unsterile mushrooms, you sterilize the outside of the mushroom, and then cut into the mushroom and take a piece or two from the inside, all under sterile conditions (sterilized glove box or a laminate flow hood). When the mushroom is to small, you can greatly reduce the number of contaminants from the initial culture by dipping a small piece in 35% hydrogen peroxide before adding it to the sterile media. Hydrogen peroxide prevents or kills spores from germinating, but doesnt harm living fungi as they create and use hydrogen peroxide. With this method, you only culture the already growing fungi, not any hitchhiker spores.

Thanks,
--Matt
 

Greasylake

Arachnoprince
Joined
Jul 23, 2017
Messages
1,321
I know Aspergillus grows readily on Malt Extract Agar, as I've had a few dark mold contaminations on my mycelial culture plates over the years. We can probably go sterile instead of semi sterile for the cultures. There's a technique I've used for isolating mycelial cultures from small, wild collected mushrooms in the past. Typically, if you want sterile mycelium from unsterile mushrooms, you sterilize the outside of the mushroom, and then cut into the mushroom and take a piece or two from the inside, all under sterile conditions (sterilized glove box or a laminate flow hood). When the mushroom is to small, you can greatly reduce the number of contaminants from the initial culture by dipping a small piece in 35% hydrogen peroxide before adding it to the sterile media. Hydrogen peroxide prevents or kills spores from germinating, but doesnt harm living fungi as they create and use hydrogen peroxide. With this method, you only culture the already growing fungi, not any hitchhiker spores.

Thanks,
--Matt
That sounds like a good idea. Fortunately (or unfortunately in this case) I don't have any pedes with mycosis so I cannot culture the fungus at the moment, but if the opportunity arises I'll be sure to give it a shot.
 

l4nsky

Arachnoknight
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
238
As for cures, has anyone thought of trying over the counter oral antifungals in the pede's water dishes? I'd be willing to try that if I ever get a clutch of "disposable" centipedes or other animals.

I've also heard garlic touted as a cure for various infections, and indeed there is even a study which suggests it may be effective against Aspergillus niger: https://academic.oup.com/jac/article/53/5/832/747152
I'm still going with Pimafix. Aspergillus has been known to cause fungal infections in fish ((PDF) Incidence of Fungal Infection of Freshwater Ornamental Fish in Pakistan ResearchGate › publication › 259357060..., etc) and Pimafix is the frontline defense and first line offense against aquarium fungal infections. Its marine invertebrate safe, both for exposure and ingestion (they live and eat in the treated water), and all natural. I might see if my local pet store has a dehaani showing signs..... in the name of science.

Thanks,
--Matt
 

Scoly

Arachnobaron
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
422
Would a petri dish work as well do you think? I have all the materials and have made a handful of them in the past with bacteria swabs.
Petri dishes are usually for sterile culture, so if have the kit (i.e. Pressure cooker etc) and feel confident you can isolate a clean sample of mycotic tissue (e.g. By cutting it open and getting a piece which has not come into contact with the air, which would be a pretty precise manoeuvre at the size we're talking about) then we're quids in. If you can't do all of the above then it's not sterile and we have to go by power of numbers.
 

Scoly

Arachnobaron
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
422
I'm still going with Pimafix. Aspergillus has been known to cause fungal infections in fish ((PDF) Incidence of Fungal Infection of Freshwater Ornamental Fish in Pakistan ResearchGate › publication › 259357060..., etc) and Pimafix is the frontline defense and first line offense against aquarium fungal infections. Its marine invertebrate safe, both for exposure and ingestion (they live and eat in the treated water), and all natural. I might see if my local pet store has a dehaani showing signs..... in the name of science.

Thanks,
--Matt
I missed your earlier post on Pimafix, but this sounds very promising, might save us from calculating massive dilutions down from human doses for a start.

A dehaani clutch may be a good option for experimentation. Either that or S.mutilans. In fact, seeing that is a commercial species in China I wonder if any farmers have looked into fungal treatments. I'd venture to guess they avoid trouble by tweaking environment rather than resorting to medication but you never know... I have lost S.mutilans to mycosis so I know they're definitely susceptible to it.
 

Greasylake

Arachnoprince
Joined
Jul 23, 2017
Messages
1,321
Petri dishes are usually for sterile culture, so if have the kit (i.e. Pressure cooker etc) and feel confident you can isolate a clean sample of mycotic tissue (e.g. By cutting it open and getting a piece which has not come into contact with the air, which would be a pretty precise manoeuvre at the size we're talking about) then we're quids in. If you can't do all of the above then it's not sterile and we have to go by power of numbers.
What equipment I don't personally own I can get access to, I have a microscope and blades I could use to make cuts as well as a means to sterilize everything. I can get sterile swaps as well. The only thing I don't have is a proper lab, so I would want to do multiple cultures for the sake of being prepared for possible contamination as well as making sure any growth isn't a fluke. I'm not sure what you mean by power of numbers?

Any tips on what type of agar promotes fungal growth the best? I would need to get some as I've never cultured fungi before.
 

Scoly

Arachnobaron
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
422
What equipment I don't personally own I can get access to, I have a microscope and blades I could use to make cuts as well as a means to sterilize everything. I can get sterile swaps as well. The only thing I don't have is a proper lab, so I would want to do multiple cultures for the sake of being prepared for possible contamination as well as making sure any growth isn't a fluke. I'm not sure what you mean by power of numbers?

Any tips on what type of agar promotes fungal growth the best? I would need to get some as I've never cultured fungi before.
By power of numbers I meant repeating it enough times to show that it develops into black mould significantly more often than another type of fungus, which is what I imagine people would have done before sterile culture.

For fungus, potato dextrose agar is the de-facto standard but this is black mould we're talking about, which grows on anything :D
 

Greasylake

Arachnoprince
Joined
Jul 23, 2017
Messages
1,321
By power of numbers I meant repeating it enough times to show that it develops into black mould significantly more often than another type of fungus, which is what I imagine people would have done before sterile culture.
I firmly believe in doing as many replications as possible, my minimum is 3 but I prefer to do more. I wouldn't treat the cultures any different.

For fungus, potato dextrose agar is the de-facto standard but this is black mould we're talking about, which grows on anything :D
That's true, maybe I'll just throw some wet insulation in the plate lol.

I'll make sure I have all the supplies and then I'll start to look into getting a sample from a pede with mycosis. This is gearing up to be a fun project.
 

TreebeardGoddess

Arachnosquire
Joined
Jul 19, 2017
Messages
100
I'm totally geeking out over this thread! :bookworm:
Sorry I have nothing to add except my moral support and I can't wait to see how these experiments develop! :watchingyou:
 

MasterOogway

Arachnoknight
Active Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2016
Messages
222
Cross posting here in case not everyone sees the other thread, but I recently received a histo report back on a scorpion with a suspected mycosis case who then passed after some betadine treatments. I'll paste the body of the histo report below for your reading pleasure. I've also expressed my interest to the vet staff that I would very much like to try and culture out the fungus the next time before preserving in formalin.


HISTORY: This less than 2-year-old, male sculptured scorpion had an infection of the left forelimb that was treated with Betadine. The animal died spontaneously.


CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS: Fungal disease.


GROSS: Received in formalin is a scorpion that is processed in two blocks.


MICROSCOPIC: Pedipalp: At the articular joint, the cuticle has full thickness erosion and invasion by fungal hyphae that have right angle and acute branching and septation. Erosion is associated with melanization and infiltration by moderate numbers of hemocytes. The following tissues are histologically within normal limits: mediate gland, midgut diverticula, and booklungs.


HISTOPATHOLOGIC DIAGNOSIS: Moderate, regionally extensive, ulcerative dermatitis with intralesional fungi.



COMMENT: As suspected clinically, the primary problem in this case was the fungal infection on the pedipalp. The lesion was localized to a joint and was inflamed (hemocytes, melanin, etc.). Focal cuticular lesions can be fatal in arachnids due to loss of hemolymph, which can occur acutely or over several days with no clinical signs outside of depression. Exsanguination often follows even small cuticular lesions. This animal was in adequate nutritional status at the time of death as estimated by midgut diverticular storage contents.
 
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