The two versions of A. geniculata and A. brocklehursti

sjl197

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Like I said before I will keep each one separate, in my opinion it would be wise for everyone else to do the same but I understand that everyone has their own opinion. With version II geniculata and version II brocklehursti they are different to doubt about it. Maybe my friend Travis can post if he ever gets off his butt to post. He could explain a bit better than I would of what he sees between the two. Travis lives a few miles away from me and he has personally seen all the specimens.
> Ok, i'd like to hear something more than one is "Rather well banded" and "Moderately banded". A useful question is can THESE interbreed (with live viable young).

I do have one last question, I got a hold of Rick West late last year about my Acanthoscurria fracta. During our conversation regarding on now the fracta is a whole different spider than the one that I have as fracta, we both agree for me to send him the molts of the two females once called fracta. Once Rick West had the molts he was suppose to send photos of the molts and spermathecae to Dr. Rogerio Bertani for further studies to determine what species it could possibly be. Do you by any chance have any contact with Dr. Rogerio Bertani? My younger female once called fracta molted again and I would like to send the molt to someone that would be interested in examining the molt for further studies. Of course I can send the molt as Non Commercial Scientific Studies. Would this be possible?
> In Acanthoscurria, there's been a whole lot of seemingly random species names tagged onto hobbystock without much care. Again those are beautiful spiders and great photos. One thing of value would be to photograph males as subadult as well as adult, as you know they change dramatically. Preserving mature specimens is also a vital step to help get the hobby naming system more realistic and stable. Did you consider Acanthoscurria juruenicola? Those are in the same stocky group as A.geniculata, A.simoensi and A.chacoana. The banding on the knees/legs can be quite variable in A.juruenicola, like many other species - e.g. see G.pulchripes. Yes, i have contact with Dr. Bertani, but here i think here Dr. Lucas's lab/collaborators have more experience with Acanthoscurria, but none i'd say have much interest in pettrade material without locality etc. (much value is lost). I'd suggest consult next with Ray Gabriel in UK - and indeed perhaps send him the moults, who is collaborating with them, and he likes to know what's going on in the trade/captive breedings. I'll send you a message by pm.

I know is a long shot but I really looking for answers on this one. Here are a couple of photos of the mature male and one of my females before her molt, after her molt and a photo of the spermathecae.
Really nice photos again, thanks for sharing!
 

AphonopelmaTX

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I can't contribute to the A. fracta discussion, but I am compelled to mirror what Stuart said about the pictures. Those are fantastic pictures Jose!
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

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I can't contribute to the A. fracta discussion, but I am compelled to mirror what Stuart said about the pictures. Those are fantastic pictures Jose!
Thanks for the compliment do appreciate you.


Jose

---------- Post added 04-24-2015 at 08:22 AM ----------

> Ok, i'd like to hear something more than one is "Rather well banded" and "Moderately banded". A useful question is can THESE interbreed (with live viable young).



> In Acanthoscurria, there's been a whole lot of seemingly random species names tagged onto hobbystock without much care. Again those are beautiful spiders and great photos. One thing of value would be to photograph males as subadult as well as adult, as you know they change dramatically. Preserving mature specimens is also a vital step to help get the hobby naming system more realistic and stable. Did you consider Acanthoscurria juruenicola? Those are in the same stocky group as A.geniculata, A.simoensi and A.chacoana. The banding on the knees/legs can be quite variable in A.juruenicola, like many other species - e.g. see G.pulchripes. Yes, i have contact with Dr. Bertani, but here i think here Dr. Lucas's lab/collaborators have more experience with Acanthoscurria, but none i'd say have much interest in pettrade material without locality etc. (much value is lost). I'd suggest consult next with Ray Gabriel in UK - and indeed perhaps send him the moults, who is collaborating with them, and he likes to know what's going on in the trade/captive breedings. I'll send you a message by pm.



Really nice photos again, thanks for sharing!
In regards of the Acanthoscurria fracta mature male and the two females, these are not "HOBBY FORMS" they are wild caught specimens. Before the male matured he looked the identical as the female and unfortunately I only have a photo of the male after he matured. Which the appearance changed drastically.

I emailed Rick West again and he said he has not heard a word back from Dr. Rogerio Bertani. Rick did send the two molts of my females to Dr. Bertani. Rick also mentions Dr. Lucas that I need to send the molt too. I did get another molt from my younger female but I may wait for my older female to molt so I can at least send to of the molts.
About the mature male unfortunately when I paired him with my big female she did not mate with him. The female was not happy she killed the male and I could not save him. The male was paired with my younger female but she ended up molting again, so no sac. I was not expecting her to molt so quickly but she did. It really pissed me off. So now I'm in search of another male.

Thanks for the info when you pm me on Arachnoboards I will figure out what to do at this point. Thanks for the compliment of the photos.



Jose
 
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Exoskeleton Invertebrates

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Here are a few more photos of the mature male Acanthoscurria fracta when he barely molted.


Acanthoscurria fracta Mature Male - Wild Caught


Acanthoscurria fracta Mature Male - Wild Caught


Acanthoscurria fracta Mature Male - Wild Caught




Jose
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

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I did a video recording of the two versions of the A. geniculata and the A. sp. "Giant White Banded". Im hoping for this video to shed some light there are four similar looking spider that are in our hobby. I know I've taken photos of them but I think the video would also be helpful as well.

As I was referring to the appearances and the black marking on the patella on each specimen and how different each specimen has them.

https://youtu.be/-QYTBMeZijM
 
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Exoskeleton Invertebrates

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Patella markings on 5 different specimens

Here are 5 photos of my females that I have. Markings on all 5 are different shapes and even the hairs on the legs seem to shaped/colored differently. Two versions of each now? Added a new one.





 
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Storm76

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Spectacular pictures indeed, Jose! Wonderfully sharp and great distinction of colors on my end (displays are all different as we know!). Also, very interesting input from you Stuart! This discussion sure is one I'll keep following, as it does interest me a lot.

I've often wondered just how different hobby stock / life stock really is species-wise. It would seem, that as long as one cannot confirm the exact locality a spider came from, quite some of our spiders are names should be taken with a grain of salt? I remember I hit a brickwall when I asked Dr. Bertani about the hobby pulcherimaklaasi, but the man is probably just too busy to answer questions from hobbyists. No matter what data provided. (On a sidenot Stuart: I did acquire three slings that were bred over here in Germany a couple years ago and already now they're tell-tale difference notable with the bare eye in comparison to H. sp. "blue" Peru II - but that's another story) I will keep following this thread gladly to see if there may be some new revelations in time.

I appreciate the work you do in documenting this José and glad to see Stuart giving his input. Thank you guys so much!


P
 

sjl197

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Here are 5 photos of my females that I have. Markings on all 5 are different shapes and even the hairs on the legs seem to shaped/colored differently. Two versions of each now? Added a new one.
Again great photos! Ignoring the 'fracta' issues for a moment, so in the video you have these 3 or 4 individuals and saying "four similar looking spiders that are in our hobby" (i think meaning what could be called 'variants'/'forms' or even 'different species' etc). Now in the photos of "5 females" where you say "Markings on all 5 are different shapes and even the hairs on the legs seem to shaped/colored differently".

So, How are you getting from 4 or 5 different ones into "Two versions of each now?". Doesn't "5 different ones" equate to 5 variants?

Then a practical question, are these spiders all near enough the same size? In some other banded species, band thickness can vary with size, generally getting bigger/thicker as the spider becomes larger. Here 5 or so spiders of about the same size are being compared right? (it seems so from video).

Then on the 'fracta' issue, i think we now discussed online elsewhere how those animals can't be real A.fracta = A.natalensis. But, again superb photos and we can agree again great animals!. Looking superficially at the male, i'd indeed agree can be a different species to the one martin (tarantulacanada/tarcan) has labeled as Acanthoscurria juruenicola, but as seems pretty often the case with hobby animals, that doesn't mean his animals are A.juruenicola, yours might be, or neither might be. Saying WC is one thing - but it's only i think confirming them as 'pure bred'. In the grand scheme of helping towards an identification, you need also the locality. The lack of collection locality with hobby animals is one of the greatest failures/problems in using these animals for any actual scientific study - collection locality is vital data, too frequently needlessly removed from stock.

And sorry to hear your male got munched. What i would have liked to hear was you salvaged his remains, or rather at least a palp and legI out of the jaws of the female - because with his key bits like those preserved (and examined), some serious statements could be made about its actual identification.
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

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Again great photos! Ignoring the 'fracta' issues for a moment, so in the video you have these 3 or 4 individuals and saying "four similar looking spiders that are in our hobby" (i think meaning what could be called 'variants'/'forms' or even 'different species' etc). Now in the photos of "5 females" where you say "Markings on all 5 are different shapes and even the hairs on the legs seem to shaped/colored differently".

So, How are you getting from 4 or 5 different ones into "Two versions of each now?". Doesn't "5 different ones" equate to 5 variants?

Then a practical question, are these spiders all near enough the same size? In some other banded species, band thickness can vary with size, generally getting bigger/thicker as the spider becomes larger. Here 5 or so spiders of about the same size are being compared right? (it seems so from video).

Then on the 'fracta' issue, i think we now discussed online elsewhere how those animals can't be real A.fracta = A.natalensis. But, again superb photos and we can agree again great animals!. Looking superficially at the male, i'd indeed agree can be a different species to the one martin (tarantulacanada/tarcan) has labeled as Acanthoscurria juruenicola, but as seems pretty often the case with hobby animals, that doesn't mean his animals are A.juruenicola, yours might be, or neither might be. Saying WC is one thing - but it's only i think confirming them as 'pure bred'. In the grand scheme of helping towards an identification, you need also the locality. The lack of collection locality with hobby animals is one of the greatest failures/problems in using these animals for any actual scientific study - collection locality is vital data, too frequently needlessly removed from stock.

And sorry to hear your male got munched. What i would have liked to hear was you salvaged his remains, or rather at least a palp and legI out of the jaws of the female - because with his key bits like those preserved (and examined), some serious statements could be made about its actual identification.
The specimen that is on the second photo of the five is a new spider that I received about three weeks ago. I did not have that specimen in my possession when I originally did this thread. I posted this photos to include one additional specimen on this thread cause I did not want to start a new thread. Same goes with the video I have of the four that I couldn't include the fifth at that time. And yes they are all about the same size adult females as I have other juvies that I recently acquired within the last week. I will post photos of them with the sizes later tonight.

As for the Acanthoscurria fracta I do wish I knew the exact locality of where they were caught. I only know that this species comes on the Guyana import. As matter of fact Ive been informed that 5 more specimens are available that came in wild caught. Of course my intention is to purchase them and hope for another male.

Yes I wished I would have saved body parts of the male. But I'm hopeful to get another. I sent two molts to Rick West of my 5" inch female and of my 7" inch female, once Rick received the molts from me he did not disagree on that they were from the original species that was once called "fracta". What makes me wonder is why and how was this spider called Acanthoscurria fracta in the first place. And how did Rick West according to his website was labeled as "fracta". Where and how he would he have gotten this information years ago?
 
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Stuart, here are the photos of the five females with measurements. The photos will be in order as it is on post #27. Each of this photos were taking natural lighting and the same distance. The legs of all of the females aren't stretched out but you can get the idea of their size.

Also how many Acanthoscurria geniculata, former brocklehursti, juruenicola, natalensis etc. do you have in your collection? I would love to see photos.






 
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JoeRossi

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Indeed Stuart......I would love to see how many Acanthoscurria you have in your collection and pictures there of as well ;) Always a beautiful Genus and radiant pictures Bandito

Also, I think the white freckles near the patellas in the first pic add character to spotty :D
 
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Indeed Stuart......I would love to see how many Acanthoscurria you have in your collection and pictures there of as well ;) Always a beautiful Genus and radiant pictures Bandito

Also, I think the white freckles near the patellas in the first pic add character to spotty :D
Hey Joe, I was messaged by Stuart on a different forum, he thank me for posting my photos, liked the way I did the measurements of each spider. Stuart mentions that I should do measurements of each molt once the females have molted, which that sounds like a pretty good idea to me. I will also post photo of the spermathecae of each one of them.

Stuart has 5 Acanthoscurria, but none are in the "geniculata" group. Though he has had a couple geniculata in the past but are in alcohol.

About the photos he says he will post them in a few weeks cause he is preparing to travel to Brazil on the 20th. Maybe if Stuart comes across some wild geniculata or former known brocklehursti he will be able to take some photos. It would be nice if he could get more additional information on this species.
 
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JoeRossi

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Well thank you for Answering for Stuart Jose. I am always interested to see what species are kept by the participants in the discussion and the expertise there of. As stated, in this case it would seem that Stuart is not keeping any geniculata, has only 5 Acanthoscurria in his collection, and is not able to share any pictures at this time. Therefore, I must defer to you who has several in your collection to show pictures of any geniculata, fracta, and other Acanthoscurria noticeable differences. I look forward to the wild caught specimens that Stuart will post here in the future.

Keep up the good work "Fracta Man" ;)
 
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Update:
So I'm curious and want your honest opinions. Not too long ago I posted photos of five different variant females between the geniculata and formerly known brocklehursti.
I'm posting a new and a couple of old photos of some mature males of the geniculata and formerly known brocklehursti. So now I have 5 variant different females and now I've encounter three different variant brock/genic mature males. Also the new version that I've acquire mature male with the bronze color on the femur was sold as brock to the person that owns the spider. So opinions needed cause I'm confused as hell?????????? Hybrid, none hybrid????????????







 

ManlyMan7

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Never seen the bronze on these before. That is weird.

As I watch this thread, I can't help but wonder if these really are variants of one species. In many other animal species, we recognize the genetic capacity for variation within a species (I think of the vast number of breeds of dogs that are all the same species, or the variants within king snake species, ball pythons, or leopard geckos). Is there any room for variants within species in the tarantula world?

I know that brocks and genics were recently lumped into one species, and I appreciate the determination of some like yourself to keep these two lines distinct. I see good reasons to do so. But it does raise curiosities in my mind as to the lines of distinction between breeds and species.

Oh that we had so much more taxanomic work done within the tarantula world to help us sort through this more clearly, not just with this species.
 

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IMG_3382.JPG IMG_4228.JPG IMG_2200.JPG IMG_3384.JPG IMG_3383.JPG IMG_4225.JPG IMG_4227.JPG Okay so on this thread I'll do this one more time. I'm sick and tired of hearing how A. geniculata and A. sp. "Brocklehursti" are supposed to be the same species. I see it like this let's pretend that all of the tarantulas in the world are the same species, let's not breed male and female that doesn't have the same characteristics from one another because you mix match you might have tarantulas that will look like if they have some identity issues. I'm a bit pissed off what people have bred two tarantulas that don't look exactly the same but decide to breed one another, than through the years in my opinion it gets muddled even further that now I can't keep up with what is real anymore between the Acanthoscurria geniculata and Acanthoscurria sp. "Brocklehursti". I'm completely amazed with the different variations between the two. I'm lost and confused as hell.

Photos of the mature males from the past to the present. I will post molts of the males next to the photo of the mature male that belongs too. Unfortunately I only have two molts of the males. If I would have known we were going to have all these different varieties I would have saved every single one of the molts.

So my question is what do you think about it? Do you feel that both have been crossed? Each photo are of 5 different males from different times. Photo I and II are very similar but not quite. If you noticed on specimen photo #1 the black markings on the patella is a little shorter than on specimen photo number #3.

Specimen photo number #4 is Acanthoscurria geniculata.

Specimen photo number #5 is Acanthoscurria sp. "Brocklehursti.

Specimen number #6 is a mature male that just molted today check out the photo of the molt, it looks geniculata but the transformation of maturity of the male is almost of a Acanthoscurria sp. "Brocklehursti".
 
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