The recluse that almost got me!

[Venom]

Venom,
Here is the deal. Case closed.
You have your views on L.reclusa and myself and others like David, who have experience with them, have ours.

Fair enough. However, unless you have a bite experience to relate or have tested the spider's proclivity for hiding in clothing/bedding etc. or tested under what circumstances one will bite, experience in caring for a recluse really doesn't have any bearing on the topic of their "dangerousness," it just means you can keep one healthy.

I will give you this....you are promoting awareness of the potential risk. I don't particularly agree with the hyperbole associated with your views but that is your opinion on the subject and I respect you for standing firm in your beliefs.
In the future though, please refrain from correcting me on the subject and do not advise others to ignore what I, or any of the other members are posting, (i.e. David).
If other members have questions, I have no doubt that they would use the PM function to contact me on this or any other subject.

You and I have different views on this subject. Granted, I think mine is more reasonable than yours, but I will give you this: I will not "correct" you in front of people asking for advice on this forum. Instead, I will: 1) say that there are opposing views on the subject, 2) give them my view without attacking yours or telling them to ignore you, and 3) recommend they do additional research on their own time, to decide for themselves the level of danger posed by this spider. However, If the topic comes up among the knowledgeable hobbyists on this site, I will attempt to disprove your position in an academic-style debate. Is that an agreeable arrangement to you?

 

[JPD]

Fair enough. However, unless you have a bite experience to relate or have tested the spider's proclivity for hiding in clothing/bedding etc. or tested under what circumstances one will bite, experience in caring for a recluse really doesn't have any bearing on the topic of their "dangerousness," it just means you can keep one healthy.




You and I have different views on this subject. Granted, I think mine is more reasonable than yours, but I will give you this: I will not "correct" you in front of people asking for advice on this forum. Instead, I will: 1) say that there are opposing views on the subject, 2) give them my view without attacking yours or telling them to ignore you, and 3) recommend they do additional research on their own time, to decide for themselves the level of danger posed by this spider. However, If the topic comes up among the knowledgeable hobbyists on this site, I will attempt to disprove your position in an academic-style debate. Is that an agreeable arrangement to you?

Fair enough.
With regard to testing under what circumstances one will bite I can offer you this.
Poking and prodding where there is a means of escape and handling do not produce a bite. The same holds true for L.deserta and L.arizonica. This drawn from personal experience over the years.

 

[nburgmei]

Do any of you have information on the other Loxosceles species? Everyone that displays even the most minor of symptoms is always quick to scream L. reclusa even when outside of their range. Everyone else is often quick to say, there's no way it was a brown recluse. I imagine most of the "bite" cases are not spiders at all, but do you think the amount of "recluse" bites might actually be slightly higher than what most of us believe due to one of the other species?

Just to make myself clear, do you think another Loxosceles species might be responsible for some of the cases attributed to L. reclusa or written off as streptococcus and staph? Thanks.

Nick

 

[Venom]

Well, any answer as to whether many "bites" are actual loxo bites and not infections or vice versa will be purely speculative, but I can answer you this: throught most of L.reclusa's range it is the ONLY Loxosceles found, so in those areas a suspected bite would be either L.reclusa or an infection, but not a different loxo sp.

Go to www.hobospider.org and look at the Loxosceles sp. distribution map under the Brown recluse page. That will give you a general idea of the various loxo sp. distributions in the USA.

 

[nburgmei]

I found a distribution map, of questionable origins, that has Loxosceles mersenius listed as present in all 48 states in the mainland. Actually the text below the map states it.

http://galenslog.typepad.com/galens_log/2005/05/use_of_vancomyc.html

That's the website. I'm skeptical of the site, but thought it was worth showing.

Edit: Since posting this a few moments ago, I noticed that I can find virtually nothing about Loxosceles mersenius. Is this even a recognized species? It's not listed on the website you provided either.

 

[Venom]

I just did a search. Unless I missed it "Loxosceles mersenius" is not in the World Spider Catalog, Version 6.5. I have personally never even heard of this species-not as a native spider, and not as an introduced species. The bites they report are, it seems caused by bacteria called MRSA ( methicillin resistant Staph aureus), and they haven't been able to pin down a physical example of the spider. Until I see an arachnologist's report detailing that a new species has been discovered and that it does in fact carry MRSA, I will remain skeptical. This could just be an infection blamed on spider bites, with a new species invented to explain the occurence. I'm not saying it couldn't be a legit spider bite, but I'm not convinced yet. It is interesting though.

Here is the link to the WSC, V6.5 Sicariidae page:

http://research.amnh.org/entomology/spiders/catalog/SICARIIDAE.html

 

[cacoseraph]

However, If the topic comes up among the knowledgeable hobbyists on this site, I will attempt to disprove your position in an academic-style debate. Is that an agreeable arrangement to you?

hehehe
i think i remember enough to ref a real debate

i would love to see it

 

[nburgmei]

It does seem like a bit of an invention. The nearest thing I could find was L. meruensis which is native to Tanzania. Thanks for your time.

Nick

 

[Venom]

hehehe
i think i remember enough to ref a real debate

i would love to see it

Yeah that's the thing...we have all these debates that go on and on, but there's almost never an impartial 3rd party to moderate the discussion and come to a decision as to who had the strongest case. I would really like to see a ref in one of these sometime. For one thing it would keep debates from going on so long you get worn out discussing them, and it would provide some sort of result or conclusion, a final opinion you know? Anyway, I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Eventually the subject will come up again.

 

[Trouble]

hi

you would know if you have been bitten by a Recluse....and the "fiddle" mark is NOT on the abdomen...I have worked in plants many years..I work in Louisiana...many plants down here...alot of the safety hazards are wasps..spiders..etc. that may make a home in abandoned conduit or pipe etc...just be careful !

So heres my interesting story... i work in an industrial job and today while i was working i was standing by my workbench talking to my partner when i seen this brown spider sluggishly running acrossed our bench, my partner instantly raised his fist to smash it so i leashed out and grabbed ahold of it in my hands and held my hands together tight so it couldnt escape. I told my partner to get a plastic container while i was holding onto the spider and he came back with a container and i opened my hand and pushed the spider off my hand into the container... while i was doing this i instantly realized how stupid i was... the spider was brown, sluggish and dreary looking, small and had a perfect fiddle looking pattern on hits abdomen... i instantly realized that i made a HUGE stupid mistake and that i had free handled a brown recluse in my hand. It worried me cause i have seen the spiders before and i know thats exactly what it was. I put the spider in this container and put it in a cupboard in my workbench and i named it "Emily" so now everyone i work with thinks im a complete psychopath for having a pet recluse. So now some people i know that have been bitten have told me that a recluse bite a lot of times will not be felt but you will develope swelling and such the next day or so after being bitten, is this true? I am definately looking over my hands for bite marks but its impossible to tell because i constantly get my hands roughed up at work by metal shavings from cutting metal and splinters from fiberglass and all that sort of stuff. But anyways, just thought id share my shocker of a story .

 

[cacoseraph]

Yeah that's the thing...we have all these debates that go on and on, but there's almost never an impartial 3rd party to moderate the discussion and come to a decision as to who had the strongest case. I would really like to see a ref in one of these sometime. For one thing it would keep debates from going on so long you get worn out discussing them, and it would provide some sort of result or conclusion, a final opinion you know? Anyway, I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Eventually the subject will come up again.

fully

resolved: L. reclusa poses a clear danger to those around it.

picking pro & con

defining terms, intial agruments, cross examinings, rebuttals, closing arguments

do the whole thing over a couple days... lock the tread at the end
make a poll thread... boom done

p.s. that's just a crap resolution, i don't think it would be any good at all, just to give ya the picture.

most of these "debates" aren't.
just arguments. some amusing arguments.. yeah.

 

[kahoy]

by the way

they adapted for such situations thats why they evolved to have flesh decaying venom.







they dont like wastes and garbages thats why any leftovers will be gone with the wind!!!

 

[David_F]

Sorry to bring this back up but I've been thinking about it for a few days and want to put in my final opinion on this argument. Sorry, I wasn't on the debate team...I have to rely on personal experience. I guess I will lose since I don't know the rules.

I think Venom and I can agree that the bite of an L. reclusa can put a person in a dangerous situation. I've never said differently. What I disagree with is Venoms (and most peoples) idea that L. reclusa is something to be feared. I see his argument as "If you see a recluse run...RUN...because if you let it get close enough it will bite!" That's just not true. As I said before, you have to be extremely unlucky (i.e. roll over on one in bed, put on a shirt that recluse is hiding in and press it against your body, etc.) to be bitten. The recluse you don't see is the only one that can cause problems for you. If you live in an area that L. reclusa lives in it's your responsibility to do all you can to make sure one is not in bed with you or in your clothes or hiding in your couch or whatever. Unfortunately, bites occur but it's not because the spider attacked anyone.

To answer your question: What does that have to do with anything? (when I asked if you'd ever had any first hand experience with L. reclusa)....What first hand experience with this spider will give you is an understanding of it's behavior. This spiders behavior completely blows the "This is a dangerous spider" argument out of the water. You compared them to A. robustus and P. nigriventer....way off, man. Not even similar. These spiders are dangerous because of the toxicity of their venom, their propensity to enter human habitation, and their highly defensive/aggressive nature. L. reclusa is only "dangerous" because of the toxicity of it's venom and it's high population density in certain areas. If you do things to reduce your chances of meeting one in bed you'll most likely be okay. If you do happen to find one it's certainly not going to attack you. Squash it, light it on fire, or scoop it up and turn it loose outside...whichever you like.

This is becoming longer than I expected so I'll just cut it short....mickey mouse style. L. reclusa like to live in houses with people. They don't like people much but realize people are bigger than them so they'd rather run away than fight. If some poor soul actually does take a bite they should try to recover the spider and take a trip to the hospital. If some idiot sees a recluse, tries to run away, trips, and busts his ass...well, that's his problem....he's an idiot. You have a better chance of getting a bad bite from a dog you don't know than from a recluse you found wandering through your house.

 

[Venom]

Quote David_F:

You compared them to A. robustus and P. nigriventer....way off, man. Not even similar.These spiders are dangerous because of the toxicity of their venom, their propensity to enter human habitation, and their highly defensive/aggressive nature. L. reclusa is only "dangerous" because of the toxicity of it's venom and it's high population density in certain areas

I think you misread what I wrote. I was merely stating that the recluse's docile temperament doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. To that end, I asked if Atrax and Phoneutria would be considered dangerous if they had a recluse's timid temperament--the answer to which is yes, they would still be dangerous:

Quote Venom:

Being reluctant to bite doesn't make it "benign." You can't characterize a spider's danger level only on its temperament/ behaviour. If P.nigriventor and A.robustus were as docile as avics, would they cease to be dangerous?.... Don't take "threatening" to mean the spiders' attitude/ behaviour ( "threat" displays etc. ). Sure, temperament is part of a species' danger level, but it isn't the only factor. Even a spider like L.reclusa that is reluctant to bite is a dangerous species,

David_F:

What I disagree with is Venoms (and most peoples) idea that L. reclusa is something to be feared. I see his argument as "If you see a recluse run...RUN...because if you let it get close enough it will bite!"

That is not at all what I've been saying!

David_F:

As I said before, you have to be extremely unlucky (i.e. roll over on one in bed, put on a shirt that recluse is hiding in and press it against your body, etc.) to be bitten. The recluse you don't see is the only one that can cause problems for you. If you live in an area that L. reclusa lives in it's your responsibility to do all you can to make sure one is not in bed with you or in your clothes or hiding in your couch or whatever. Unfortunately, bites occur but it's not because the spider attacked anyone....If you do things to reduce your chances of meeting one in bed you'll most likely be okay. If you do happen to find one it's certainly not going to attack you. Squash it, light it on fire, or scoop it up and turn it loose outside...whichever you like.

Again, you have misunderstood me. What you said above is pretty much in agreement with what I actually said:

Venom:

All you have to do is roll over on one in bed, have one your shoe or towel or clothing etc. It's true that this isn't a spider that will defensively strike, like a T or f-web, but because they are a wandering spider that gets into homes, likes to hide in fabrics, and bites when pressed, the spider is like a mobile land-mine waiting. It is a simple matter of the spider's behaviour. It resides in homes, it frequently wanders, it favors clothing has a shelter, it bites when pressed against skin. Put 2 + 2 together here: these spiders are a problem--not because they are super defensive, T-style defenders, but because they passively defensive and get into situations indoors where they are forced to bite.

David_F:

This spiders behavior completely blows the "This is a dangerous spider" argument out of the water.

No, the spider's habit of living and wandering in homes adds to its danger. It may not be an aggressively defensive spider that will give threat displays and "attack," but its other habits of behaviour put it into situations where it bites defensively, as a last resort: i.e., being rolled over on in bed.

David_F:

I think Venom and I can agree that the bite of an L. reclusa can put a person in a dangerous situation. I've never said differently.

Lol, I think we agree on a lot more than you think! We basically are in agreement here! ( if you read what I write a little more carefully ).