The recluse that almost got me!

[GartenSpinnen]

So heres my interesting story... i work in an industrial job and today while i was working i was standing by my workbench talking to my partner when i seen this brown spider sluggishly running acrossed our bench, my partner instantly raised his fist to smash it so i leashed out and grabbed ahold of it in my hands and held my hands together tight so it couldnt escape. I told my partner to get a plastic container while i was holding onto the spider and he came back with a container and i opened my hand and pushed the spider off my hand into the container... while i was doing this i instantly realized how stupid i was... the spider was brown, sluggish and dreary looking, small and had a perfect fiddle looking pattern on hits abdomen... i instantly realized that i made a HUGE stupid mistake and that i had free handled a brown recluse in my hand. It worried me cause i have seen the spiders before and i know thats exactly what it was. I put the spider in this container and put it in a cupboard in my workbench and i named it "Emily" so now everyone i work with thinks im a complete psychopath for having a pet recluse. So now some people i know that have been bitten have told me that a recluse bite a lot of times will not be felt but you will develope swelling and such the next day or so after being bitten, is this true? I am definately looking over my hands for bite marks but its impossible to tell because i constantly get my hands roughed up at work by metal shavings from cutting metal and splinters from fiberglass and all that sort of stuff. But anyways, just thought id share my shocker of a story .

 

[David_F]

the spider was brown, sluggish and dreary looking, small and had a perfect fiddle looking pattern on hits abdomen...

If the violin was on the abdomen then you didn't catch a recluse. The violin is on the carapace of recluse spiders.

This is a brown recluse:

 

[JPD]

L.reclusa are benign little creatures and are not particularly threatening imo.
They are reluctant biters only doing so when they have no choice.
You are probably 100x more likely to get an infection from the metal shavings and what not rather than getting a bite.
Thanks for sharing that story and sparing the spider

 

[crashergs]

brown recluse causes necrosis, the venom eats up flesh, im sure your hand would of been bare flesh and muscle by this time.

photos can be seen below, pictures of people being bit by recluses.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...images?q=recluse+bite&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=N

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/images/4453/4453-4474-10729-25043.jpg

http://www.remotemedics.co.uk/l281.jpg


dont let someone tell you otherwise that recluses have no impact from venom. Talk to those that have been bitten with no medical attention during the time of bite

 

[Venom]

L.reclusa are benign little creatures and are not particularly threatening

Please don't listen to JPD. Recluses may be timid in temperament, but it is a proven fact that they will bite when pinned, and it is a proven fact that their venom is highly damaging, and it is a proven fact that they can inject enough to cause serious local and/or systemic symptoms. Of course, systemic bites are uncommon, and since the spiders control how much venom they inject, most bites are not the horror story giant necrosis pics you see online--but they can be!! They have the potential for serious envenomations, and should NOT EVER be taken lightly.

JPD, I really believe your opinion in this matter is a dangerous one. By promoting a casual attitude toward loxos, you are putting the people who follow your advice at risk of serious envenomation. Why do you insist on controverting the reliable medical literature and numerous accounts of serious loxo bites? How can you justify saying they aren't dangerous, when there is so much evidence that they are??

 

[GartenSpinnen]

Well i didnt mean to say it was on its abdomen, i meant carapace but that spider is EXACTLY what it looks like, its really small though maybe 3/4" total legspan but the basic body structure, color, and weird pattern are all alike, we have a lot of them around here and its common knowledge what they look like. And on another hand about the dangerousness of this spider, i dont care what anyone says, i know 3 people just at work that have been bitten and one guy got bitten twice and had a severe reaction to both times he was bitten, he has huge scars on his legs and foot from the bite. I know another woman that got bit on her leg and the doctors cut out a huge chunk of dead flesh afterwards and now she also has a very large disgusting looking scar. I love spiders and i love basically all arachnids and i understand that they are poorly understood creatures who have bad reps a lot of times for no reason, however, the brown recluse should be 1 spider that can just keep the bad rep i just know too many people that have been bitten and are horribly scarred from it. Im sure if you ask anybody that has actually been bitten they will tell you that its most certainly a dangerous spider, and the bites are much more common than a black widow bite IMO.
-----(Nate)-----

 

[Scolopendra55]

Good story!

 

[GartenSpinnen]

Well i have not sustained any type of sores or anything on my hand that would lead me to believe that i was bitten, so im most certain i did not get bit. Dang im feeling lucky Cause ya know, being single and all and then having a huge rotten chunk of flesh taken out of my hand probably wouldnt help me find a woman none!... i dont think the ladies find the whole ghastly open wound thing very sexy...
-Nater

 

[David_F]

How can you justify saying they aren't dangerous, when there is so much evidence that they are??

I have pretty much the same attitude toward L. reclusa as JPD so I want to give my answer to this question.

L.reclusa are benign little creatures and are not particularly threatening.

Nowhere in that sentence does JPD dispute the toxicity of L. reclusa venom or say that they are not dangerous. We've had this debate before so I won't go into my definitoin of danger associated with L. reclusa. What he said is that they are benign and not threatening. That is 100% true. They are extremely reluctant to bite. That does not, in any way, mean that the venom can not cause necrosis. It simply means that there's no reason to consider yourself "lucky" that you weren't bitten by that monstrous, foaming-at-the-mouth brown recluse you saw making it's way toward you with a malevolent look in it's eyes.

Picking these spiders up at any time is a pretty bad idea. That goes for any spider though...especially one you can't/don't ID properly.

Glad you weren't bitten by the spider, shammer4life. It could have possibly ended up with you losing a good portion of your hand. Fortunately, you got to see exactly how reluctant to bite these little spiders actually are.

 

[JPD]

Please don't listen to JPD. Recluses may be timid in temperament, but it is a proven fact that they will bite when pinned, and it is a proven fact that their venom is highly damaging, and it is a proven fact that they can inject enough to cause serious local and/or systemic symptoms. Of course, systemic bites are uncommon, and since the spiders control how much venom they inject, most bites are not the horror story giant necrosis pics you see online--but they can be!! They have the potential for serious envenomations, and should NOT EVER be taken lightly.

JPD, I really believe your opinion in this matter is a dangerous one. By promoting a casual attitude toward loxos, you are putting the people who follow your advice at risk of serious envenomation. Why do you insist on controverting the reliable medical literature and numerous accounts of serious loxo bites? How can you justify saying they aren't dangerous, when there is so much evidence that they are??

I think I mentioned that they will bite when left no other choice. I am not discounting the fact that there "could be" serious results from a bite, however, I will discount your constant desire to perpetuate the mythological status of our little friend.
The facts are there. What one must consider when examining the facts is: 1) How many unreported and uneventful bites occur versus bites that result in a systemic response, (my guess is thousands).
2) Of the "documented" cases in which necrosis is evident, how many have resulted in recovering an actual specimen versus, "I think I may have been bitten" or "There was a spider on my floor and I woke-up with a bite."
Really, unless the L.reclusa is caught in the act, it leaves a host of other possibilities that may have caused the "bite."

And for the record Venom, I see nowhere in my original post that says "advice."


The bottom line Venom....you can continue to spread unecessary fear and panic with regard to our little friend, however, by doing so, you only serve to take all of us many steps backwards in our understanding of L.reclusa.

 

[JPD]

I have pretty much the same attitude toward L. reclusa as JPD so I want to give my answer to this question.


Nowhere in that sentence does JPD dispute the toxicity of L. reclusa venom or say that they are not dangerous. We've had this debate before so I won't go into my definitoin of danger associated with L. reclusa. What he said is that they are benign and not threatening. That is 100% true. They are extremely reluctant to bite. That does not, in any way, mean that the venom can not cause necrosis. It simply means that there's no reason to consider yourself "lucky" that you weren't bitten by that monstrous, foaming-at-the-mouth brown recluse you saw making it's way toward you with a malevolent look in it's eyes.

Picking these spiders up at any time is a pretty bad idea. That goes for any spider though...especially one you can't/don't ID properly.

Glad you weren't bitten by the spider, shammer4life. It could have possibly ended up with you losing a good portion of your hand. Fortunately, you got to see exactly how reluctant to bite these little spiders actually are.

:clap:

I thank you David as do the millions of L.reclusa in this world....err, I mean the millions of L.reclusa in the midwest

And just for the record everyone......David actually lives in "Recluse Country"

 

[JPD]

Well i didnt mean to say it was on its abdomen, i meant carapace but that spider is EXACTLY what it looks like, its really small though maybe 3/4" total legspan but the basic body structure, color, and weird pattern are all alike, we have a lot of them around here and its common knowledge what they look like. And on another hand about the dangerousness of this spider, i dont care what anyone says, i know 3 people just at work that have been bitten and one guy got bitten twice and had a severe reaction to both times he was bitten, he has huge scars on his legs and foot from the bite. I know another woman that got bit on her leg and the doctors cut out a huge chunk of dead flesh afterwards and now she also has a very large disgusting looking scar. I love spiders and i love basically all arachnids and i understand that they are poorly understood creatures who have bad reps a lot of times for no reason, however, the brown recluse should be 1 spider that can just keep the bad rep i just know too many people that have been bitten and are horribly scarred from it. Im sure if you ask anybody that has actually been bitten they will tell you that its most certainly a dangerous spider, and the bites are much more common than a black widow bite IMO.
-----(Nate)-----

Nate,
It looks as though, (based on some other posts), that you are from Michigan/Northern Indiana. Unless the range has expanded in the last few years, this is not L.reclusa country.

 

[loxoscelesfear]

spiders @ work

i have a couple reclusa and a yellow sac spider or two. don't have the heart to step on em so there they sit , in plastic containers on my shelf. i too, found mine at work. oh yeah, one other spider i see occasionally on the job-- the woodlouse hunter-- they are really cool spiders as well; huge fangs!!

 

[Venom]

Nowhere in that sentence does JPD dispute the toxicity of L. reclusa venom or say that they are not dangerous.

"L.reclusa are benign little creatures and are not particularly threatening." No offense meant, but are we speaking the same language? I would take that phrasing to mean that he is saying they aren't that dangerous.

What he said is that they are benign and not threatening. That is 100% true. They are extremely reluctant to bite.

Being reluctant to bite doesn't make it "benign." You can't characterize a spider's danger level only on its temperament/ behaviour. If P.nigriventor and A.robustus were as docile as avics, would they cease to be dangerous? If only one in ten bites from A.robustus injected venom, would it cease to be threatening? Don't take "threatening" to mean the spiders' attitude/ behaviour ( "threat" displays etc. ). Sure, temperament is part of a species' danger level, but it isn't the only factor. Even a spider like L.reclusa that is reluctant to bite is a dangerous species, based on its POTENTIAL for serious bites--based on what it is capable of doing, not what it typically does. I guess I'm just not sure how you can admit they have a dangerous bite, but then say they aren't that dangerous?

The facts are there. What one must consider when examining the facts is: 1) How many unreported and uneventful bites occur versus bites that result in a systemic response, (my guess is thousands).
2) Of the "documented" cases in which necrosis is evident, how many have resulted in recovering an actual specimen versus, "I think I may have been bitten" or "There was a spider on my floor and I woke-up with a bite."

Both points are speculative.

my guess is thousands

--that is just what you say: a guess. You are operating on assumptions and subjective guesswork here, which you can't really call "facts."

And for the record Venom, I see nowhere in my original post that says "advice."

Telling people that recluses aren't a big deal, aren't that dangerous, and should be ignored or even welcomed in the home are all forms of advice, and could end up getting someone hurt. I was commenting on your advice not only in this thread, but previous ones like it in which you proffered you opinion on L.reclusa.

The bottom line Venom....you can continue to spread unecessary fear and panic with regard to our little friend, however, by doing so, you only serve to take all of us many steps backwards in our understanding of L.reclusa.

Better a healthy (emphasis on HEALTHY) respect, than a regretful underestimation. I don't believe I am overestimating their seriousness, but even if I am, it is safer to overestimate than underestimate this spider.

I think I mentioned that they will bite when left no other choice. I am not discounting the fact that there "could be" serious results from a bite, however, I will discount your constant desire to perpetuate the mythological status of our little friend.

I'm not promoting any myth. I admit the typical recluse bite isn't a massive event. But I refuse to write the spider off as virtually harmless, as you seem to want to do. It has the capacity for very serious bites, and in my book, that makes it a very serious spider, and what is more, despite its docile temperament, it will, as almost any spider, bite when immobilized, which is what happens in the towel or bedding situations where most domestice loxo bites occur.

 

[JPD]

"L.reclusa are benign little creatures and are not particularly threatening." No offense meant, but are we speaking the same language? I would take that phrasing to mean that he is saying they aren't that dangerous.





Being reluctant to bite doesn't make it "benign." You can't characterize a spider's danger level only on its temperament/ behaviour. If P.nigriventor and A.robustus were as docile as avics, would they cease to be dangerous? If only one in ten bites from A.robustus injected venom, would it cease to be threatening? Don't take "threatening" to mean the spiders' attitude/ behaviour ( "threat" displays etc. ). Sure, temperament is part of a species' danger level, but it isn't the only factor. Even a spider like L.reclusa that is reluctant to bite is a dangerous species, based on its POTENTIAL for serious bites--based on what it is capable of doing, not what it typically does. I guess I'm just not sure how you can admit they have a dangerous bite, but then say they aren't that dangerous?





Both points are speculative. --that is just what you say: a guess. You are operating on assumptions and subjective guesswork here, which you can't really call "facts."




Telling people that recluses aren't a big deal, aren't that dangerous, and should be ignored or even welcomed in the home are all forms of advice, and could end up getting someone hurt. I was commenting on your advice not only in this thread, but previous ones like it in which you proffered you opinion on L.reclusa.




Better a healthy (emphasis on HEALTHY) respect, than a regretful underestimation. I don't believe I am overestimating their seriousness, but even if I am, it is safer to overestimate than underestimate this spider.




I'm not promoting any myth. I admit the typical recluse bite isn't a massive event. But I refuse to write the spider off as virtually harmless, as you seem to want to do. It has the capacity for very serious bites, and in my book, that makes it a very serious spider, and what is more, despite its docile temperament, it will, as almost any spider, bite when immobilized, which is what happens in the towel or bedding situations where most domestice loxo bites occur.

Is there a smilie for yawning?

 

[David_F]

Yada, yada, yada

You know, you're right. I don't know why I ever questioned anything you said. You've changed my mind. I will, from this day forward, forever live in fear of the dreaded brown recluse.

By the way, have you ever had any contact with recluses? I mean, being from Michigan and all, they must just be crawling everywhere.

Something you seem to be failing to grasp is that I've never said that the bite of a brown recluse is not dangerous. The spider itself is not very dangerous at all though. You have to work pretty hard or be extremely unlucky to be bitten by one. With the number of these spiders to be found in their natural range, if they were as dangerous as you seem to think they are there would be confirmed bites, hell, I'll even concede unconfirmed bites, on an almost daily basis. The fact that very, very few bites are reported leads me to believe there's not much to be worried about. But keep reading your papers and preaching your gloom and doom. No sense in teaching people the truth, right?

 

[Venom]

By the way, have you ever had any contact with recluses? I mean, being from Michigan and all, they must just be crawling everywhere.

What does that have to do with anything? I don't need first-hand experience of a bite to know what it can do. In any case I do know ( or have friends who know ) people who were bitten by loxo spp.

Something you seem to be failing to grasp is that I've never said that the bite of a brown recluse is not dangerous. The spider itself is not very dangerous at all though.

That is a complete contradiction. If the bite is dangerous, the spider is dangerous.

You have to work pretty hard or be extremely unlucky to be bitten by one.

Not really. All you have to do is roll over on one in bed, have one your shoe or towel or clothing etc. It's true that this isn't a spider that will defensively strike, like a T or f-web, but because they are a wandering spider that gets into homes, likes to hide in fabrics, and bites when pressed, the spider is like a mobile land-mine waiting. It is a simple matter of the spider's behaviour. It resides in homes, it frequently wanders, it favors clothing has a shelter, it bites when pressed against skin. Put 2 + 2 together here: these spiders are a problem--not because they are super defensive, T-style defenders, but because they passively defensive and get into situations indoors where they are forced to bite.

With the number of these spiders to be found in their natural range, if they were as dangerous as you seem to think they are there would be confirmed bites, hell, I'll even concede unconfirmed bites, on an almost daily basis. The fact that very, very few bites are reported leads me to believe there's not much to be worried about.

Does the entire southern midwest send their bite reports to you? How do you know how many bites there are? The reason there aren't more reported bites is because most bites, as I've said, aren't massive events, but fairly minor compared to the horror pics circulating the net. That does NOT mean they aren't "to be worried about," it means that usually you get off lightly. Now and then we see a major bite, and it can be a truly gruesome ordeal. In my mind, even the slim chance of a serious envenomation means the spider should be taken seriously. Your Russian-roulette attitude, minimizing the danger of this spider based on the infrequency of major effects is a seriously dangerous mistake.

But keep reading your papers and preaching your gloom and doom.

I'm not preaching gloom and doom, I'm promoting a rational, realistic view of loxos based on the real facts of recluse bites and behaviour.You, on the other hand, are preaching a casual attitude based on assumptions and your personal impression of the spider's passive temperament, that brushes aside the potential for harm by this spider. Docile does not equal defenseless, nor even unwillingness to defend. It means the spider will defend itself only in certain circumstances, and those circumstances ARE MET in the domestic environment. Likewise, you can't write off the worst case scenario just because it is uncommon.

 

[Cirith Ungol]

That is a complete contradiction. If the bite is dangerous, the spider is dangerous.

You know... can this be just a difference in how you 2-3 peeps perceive the word "dangerous"?

Sure smells like that. I know this post will be totally ignored by you all, but I'd suggest you continue by clearing up what you all mean by "dangerous"... that could save you a few of the pies

 

[Venom]

You know... can this be just a difference in how you 2-3 peeps perceive the word "dangerous"?

Sure smells like that. I know this post will be totally ignored by you all, but I'd suggest you continue by clearing up what you all mean by "dangerous"... that could save you a few of the pies

I think that is a completely sensible and worthwhile suggestion, so here goes:

I define danger as risk of harm. Danger, to me, doesn't mean that such-and-such injury will happen to you, it means it could , as in might happen to you. It means there is a chance of an injury occuring from a behaviour or object ( in this case an animal ). For instance, smoking is dangerous. Being a smoker doesn't mean that you will get cancer, but it puts you at risk for possibly getting cancer. Dangerous means that there is an established, recognized capacity for causing harm, and a real chance of that harm occuring.

In the case of the recluse, I think it is a dangerous spider because it has the capacity to cause serious harm, and because its behaviour makes it possible for that harm to occur. As with smoking, in many cases the worst case scenario does not happen. The spider typically only bites under certain circumstances, and even then the amount of venom injection ( and hence the degree of harm ) varies. However, the venom is a proven cause of harm when injected in flesh, and a cause of very serious harm when injected in larger quantities. The amount of venom the spider elects to inject is not reliably predictable, and there is always a degree of variation in the temperament of the spider and therefor its willingness to bite, so there is an aspect of unpredictability as to when a major bite will occur. Most bites are minor to moderate in nature, minor bites being like what Becca experienced just recently, and moderate bites being more half-dollar sized. Personally, I would consider even the chance of a "moderate" recluse bite to be a degree of danger, but when you add the off chance of a major necrotism or a systemic envenomation--even if it is a slim chance-- the fact that there IS a chance means there is a real danger--a real risk for harm associated with this spider. To my mind, the degree of seriousness of major loxoscelism makes up for its rarity. To give an exaggerated example, I would compare the risk of occasional major loxoscelism to a nuclear bomb that has only a 1 in 10,000 chance of going off. Even though the likelihood of its happening is slim, the enormous damage caused when it does go off makes it still a very serious risk.

 

[JPD]

Venom,
Here is the deal. Case closed.
You have your views on L.reclusa and myself and others like David, who have experience with them, have ours.
I will give you this....you are promoting awareness of the potential risk. I don't particularly agree with the hyperbole associated with your views but that is your opinion on the subject and I respect you for standing firm in your beliefs.
In the future though, please refrain from correcting me on the subject and do not advise others to ignore what I, or any of the other members are posting, (i.e. David).
If other members have questions, I have no doubt that they would use the PM function to contact me on this or any other subject.