The Hunter... Or Why I Have to Lock Up the Spiders

[Ellenantula]

My dog (Rainbow Bridge) would have taken out hundreds of squirrels if she could have -- they were just too fast for my girl.
I keep my cats indoors because I don't want fleas and I am near a busy street; but, I respect they would enjoy the outdoors if allowed out.
Honestly, I figure man has caused more harm to nature's inhabitants than my cats ever could.
I have nothing against outdoor cats -- most rural people keep a few mousers around.
I would suggest viewing things differently: Instead of blaming owners for "letting" their cats kill; instead accept that cats hunt naturally and that some people also allow such cats in their homes. Shift the blame from 'owner' to the 'cat's' natural instinct. Cat owners shouldn't be guilty through association.
When humans stop spraying insecticides and committing de-forestation, then we can talk about cats.
Okay -- flame me. lol

 

[cold blood]

View attachment 215458

Ahhh, funny, but not really....no one here is the type (so far) to lose it over this argument....I feel like I could argue differences with Chris till I'm blue in the face and have it never effect either of us personally.

 

[shining]

Ok, let me say it this way. Pound for pound it dispatched that full grown deer with as much elegance and any wild kingdom lion/gazelle take down video I have ever seen. No need for claws, it hit with it's full weight and the deer never got up. It was just as clean as any lion and no more savage then any other animal take down. Dogs don't howl or snarl when they hunt in the wild. They are just as stealthy as any other predator. They do this when in captivity because they are posturing and warning. They have no need to posture or warn prey in the wild.

The point is they can be every bit the predator that any cat could be. We just don't let them because no one is worried about a feral cat killing/dragging off your kid. While a big wild dog/pack could do real harm to a small child or an adult for that matter.

Agreed. Check my edit of that comment. You must've quoted it before I saved it (Maybe in that instant it was on par at best. Dogs can be brutal too.)

 

[cold blood]

My dog (Rainbow Bridge) would have taken out hundreds of squirrels if she could have -- they were just too fast for my girl.

There's the difference as to why cats are so much more environmentally destructive...not a single one of those squirrels would be alive today if your cats were in the same position as the dog....for your dog it was just a fun chase...for the cat, its a job to be taken seriously...and trees...no obstacle for a cat to negotiate....cats just aren't fully domesticated like the dog, which makes them far more destructive to the local fauna in the long run....I want to see a cat attack a bird and have the owner say "NO" in mid-attack and have the cat respond accordingly....something just about every domestic dog will react to instantly.....so if you can't call it off or control the animal's killings, it shouldn't be allowed to run free....to me this is just basic logic.

As for the "just a pigeon" argument....I will take 3 animals, the dog, the cat and that lowly pigeon and ask you , historically, which of the 3 is most responsible for the saving of human lives and which is the least responsible for saving human lives?

Pigeon is number one, hands down...followed by the dog.

Does that native pigeon not have a right to live? Is the "its just a pigeon" argument any different than the people we complain about that say the same about our tarantulas...."its just a spider" ticks off most of us...yet a pigeon is a far more intelligent and helpful animal no matter how you slice it and we are using the same ridiculously insensitive "its just a___" argument.

 

[Trenor]

My dog (Rainbow Bridge) would have taken out hundreds of squirrels if she could have -- they were just too fast for my girl.
I keep my cats indoors because I don't want fleas and I am near a busy street; but, I respect they would enjoy the outdoors if allowed out.
Honestly, I figure man has caused more harm to nature's inhabitants than my cats ever could.
I have nothing against outdoor cats -- most rural people keep a few mousers around.
I would suggest viewing things differently: Instead of blaming owners for "letting" their cats kill; instead accept that cats hunt naturally and that some people also allow such cats in their homes. Shift the blame from 'owner' to the 'cat's' natural instinct. Cat owners shouldn't be guilty through association.
When humans stop spraying insecticides and committing de-forestation, then we can talk about cats.
Okay -- flame me. lol

Well no flame here but..... I'm just going to put out by that logic we can excuse any behavior by any animal ever.

It is fair to say that in their ecosystem it's ok for any animals to behave according to it's nature. The problem is we are breeding cats faster then normal into ecosystems they were never in before and have no natural ways to deal with them. We have done the same with dog and snakes and a lot of other animals we have moved with us as we populated the planet.

When you artificially introduce large amounts of predators quickly into an ecosystem that can't manage them then the native species are wiped out just as quickly as if we burned the forest down or cut the trees. In Florida, due to large constrictors being turned loose and migration the small bird and mammal populations are getting destroyed.

Why do we view some animals (cats) as outside of this problem when if left unchecked they can do as much harm?

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Does that native pigeon not have a right to live? Is the "its just a pigeon" argument any different than the people we complain about that say the same about our tarantulas...."its just a spider" ticks off most of us...yet a pigeon is a far more intelligent and helpful animal no matter how you slice it and we are using the same ridiculously insensitive "its just a___" argument.

What are you saying, now? If a cat hunt and kill a pidgeon/mouse/lizard or what else, it's only nature my man. If a man interfere, helping the cat/s, or helping the pidgeon fly away, then yes, that he/she break equilibrium laws.

Apply this "its just a pidgeon" guilty feeling to everything, then a Theraphosidae, in the wild, that ambush and eat a cricket/locust/roach etc? Why that's normal, but a cat hunting a pidgeon is "bad"? They are both predators, at the end, no?

About dogs, I wanted to say that they are different. It doesn't matter how much strong, and brutal a dog can be (especially if trained by thugs like here, with tasers and shock devices) a dog need his/her master. A dog is lost, without. Aren't wolves.

While cats thrive without a master. That's why stray wandered dogs are an issue, and cats no. Because cats manage to gain their food, somewhat. Stray dogs are poor creatures, with their soul full of bruises and beated, by ignorants that throwed them away like old stuff.

There's a difference between a brutal kill and predate for life, 24/7. Cats are on another level, they are tigers/lion/panthers in miniature :-s

 

[Ellenantula]

I want to see a cat attack a bird and have the owner say "NO" in mid-attack and have the cat respond accordingly....something just about every domestic dog will react to instantly.....so if you can't call it off or control the animal's killings, it shouldn't be allowed to run free....to me this is just basic logic.

Yeah, I learned with early with my dog Chessi that yelling 'stop' or 'don't' did nothing; but giving a reasonable command (usually "SIT!") caused my Chessi to stop suddenly, like sliding into third base, into a 'sit.' Dogs require something to 'do' on a command. A 'don't do anything' sort of command was a FAIL for my girl.
And obviously, I was not seriously thinking this thread would really be a flame war. I just acknowledge outdoor cats are simply doing what their instincts compel them to do: hunt to kill.
I admit it -- I adore cats and dogs and appreciate their differences. I cannot blame an animal for doing what it's instincts tell it to do. And I cannot blame an owner for letting a cat hunt. Until children are threatened by cats, I say let cats be cats.
If they came out with Purina Tarantula Chow pellets tomorrow, and Ts adored them.... I would still feed live prey.
Nature.... whatcha gonna do, huh?

 

[Ellenantula]

Why do we view some animals (cats) as outside of this problem when if left unchecked they can do as much harm?

Perhaps a cop-out, but with so many cats already living outdoors, to deny a pet cat to do the same.... seems wrong. I just can't judge. Mankind has caused so much injury to nature... and we should know better. A cat is just being a cat, and enjoying it. Call it cat enrichment, if nothing else.

 

[cold blood]

What are you saying, now? If a cat hunt and kill a pidgeon/mouse/lizard or what else, it's only nature my man. If a man interfere, helping the cat/s, or helping the pidgeon fly away, then yes, that he/she break equilibrium laws.

Apply this "its just a pidgeon" guilty feeling to everything, then a Theraphosidae, in the wild, that ambush and eat a cricket/locust/roach etc? Why that's normal, but a cat hunting a pidgeon is "bad"? They are both predators, at the end, no?

About dogs, I wanted to say that they are different. It doesn't matter how much strong, and brutal a dog can be (especially if trained by thugs like here, with tasers and shock devices) a dog need his/her master. A dog is lost, without. Aren't wolves.

While cats thrive without a master. That's why stray wandered dogs are an issue, and cats no. Because cats manage to gain their food, somewhat. Stray dogs are poor creatures, with their soul full of bruises and beated, by ignorants that throwed them away like old stuff.

There's a difference between a brutal kill and predate for life, 24/7. Cats are on another level, they are tigers/lion/panthers in miniature :-s

The domestic cat doesn't belong in nature (its a creation of man), that's what makes it so much different....your hunting comparison is spot on, and that's the basis of my argument. Set a skilled hunter into an environment where it has no natural control and can kill unchecked and its a recipe for disaster.

Did you see the numbers of birds killed annually in the link I posted...the numbers are staggering....nothing can sustain that kind of death forever...we tried it with lakes, and fished them out, same for our vast woods, until most of the larger prey became either extinct or relegated to such small areas of their natural range that they will probably never recover....now we are doing the same with the ocean. Cats can and do have the same effect on local birds and small mammals.

I wasn't and don't use the "its just a ___" argument...you did.....I was merely pointing out how ridiculous that kind of argument is.

I don't get your hunting correlation...one is a social pack animal, the other is a solitary hunter....as only a small few big cats will hunt together...just lions if I'm not mistaken. That social difference in how they live is the only difference, and again, because a solo cat doesn't need the help a solo dog might (for long term survival), it makes them all the more destructive and worrisome.....and its just not legal to leave a dog running free, even if its a 10lb purse dog.

Wolves do fare much better within a pack than alone, the opposite of a cat...but I don't see how that effects the true nature of a cats destruction to local fauna.....if these cats were native, its a different story.

Domestic cats running free are an invasive species, and just as, or more detrimetal than most of the invasives we fight every day no matter how you slice it....put there by us, and released to kill indiscriminately, despite no natural control. But goddamn if it isn't cute to have one walk up and rub against your leg....cats know how to be cute and get what they want and their owners I think get lost in that cuteness and fail to realize just how bad they are or can be for native wildlife.

 

[cold blood]

And obviously, I was not seriously thinking this thread would really be a flame war.

Oh I don't think its a flame war...there have been no personal attacks...just a healthy difference of opinion and discussion...even if everybody else is wrong...hehe (that was a funny).

 

[YagerManJennsen]

I know what you mean
View attachment 215334

I think our cats are long lost twins

 

[Robyn8]

I love my cat, keeping him inside

 

[Ellenantula]

But goddamn if it isn't cute to have one walk up and rub against your leg....cats know how to be cute and get what they want and their owners I think get lost in that cuteness and fail to realize just how bad they are or can be for native wildlife.

Cats KNOW how to be cute to get what they want? lol Seriously? C'mon, that is crediting them with some pretty high intelligence.
They hunt why? Because it's there. Simple. They hardly fool people with their cuteness to trick their owners into letting them outdoors so they can wreak destruction on wildlife.
I don't think you like (or trust) cats much. hehe

 

[cold blood]

Cats KNOW how to be cute to get what they want? lol Seriously? C'mon, that is crediting them with some pretty high intelligence.
They hunt why? Because it's there. Simple. They hardly fool people with their cuteness to trick their owners into letting them outdoors so they can wreak destruction on wildlife.
I don't think you like (or trust) cats much. hehe

I was interjecting a little humor as well as man's love for cats...you took that part too seriously.

I like cats just fine, even my dog likes them as I mentioned.

 

[Ellenantula]

I was interjecting a little humor as well as man's love for cats...you took that part too seriously.

I like cats just fine, even my dog likes them as I mentioned.

Nah -- it was funny. And hey, I did put in some winkies, 'lols' and 'hehes'. Can't flame with ya, CB. lol
Seriously, it is a shame cats hunt and kill. I don't like it either, just accept it's what a cat is gonna do. A dog too, if given the chance.

I got tickled because it sounded like a 'conspiracy theory'.

 

[Trenor]

a dog need his/her master. A dog is lost, without.

LOL, no they don't.... dogs like cats can go feral and they don't need you nor me. In the wild they are able to feed themselves just like a cat or anything else. You are thinking of a lost puppy in the city still begging for food. In the country when they go feral they do not need nor want your help for food or anything else.

Stray dogs are poor creatures, with their soul full of bruises and beated, by ignorants that throwed them away like old stuff.

Let me see if Dad still has those photos from back then. He had one they took with truck lights at night and it shows the face of a predator you would not want to meet at night. There was nothing poor about those dogs. They took down deer and rabbits and a lot of other animals including live stock. Again these started out as domesticated dogs that went feral. They were not wild wolves.

There's a difference between a brutal kill and predate for life, 24/7. Cats are on another level, they are tigers/lion/panthers in miniature :-s

If you say this then you have not seen a wild/feral dog in action. People are using brutal as a descriptor because they are thinking of it like dogs in captivity who snarl and growl and we teach it to be brutal. In the wild they are every bit the predator that a cat is.

Perhaps a cop-out, but with so many cats already living outdoors, to deny a pet cat to do the same.... seems wrong. I just can't judge. Mankind has caused so much injury to nature... and we should know better. A cat is just being a cat, and enjoying it. Call it cat enrichment, if nothing else.

That's like saying that since we have burnt so much of the rain forest down we should not complain that someone wants to set the rest on fire.

Humans are animals too. We expect them to ignore their base instincts and desires but all other animals get the free pass. Why not it's just a human being a human enjoying itself. I can do all kinds of wrong and still come out looking good when compared to the worst humanity has to offer. Does that make what I did ok? The comparison doesn't hold.

 

[cold blood]

Nah -- it was funny. And hey, I did put in some winkies, 'lols' and 'hehes'. Can't flame with ya, CB. lol
Seriously, it is a shame cats hunt and kill. I don't like it either, just accept it's what a cat is gonna do. A dog too, if given the chance.

Its not their nature at all that I have issue with...its the fact that its allowed to go on unchecked and without a care....If my dog spend all day racking up the carcasses, I guarantee my neighbors, conservation officers and police would all take interest....but if its a cat doing the same, people all go "oh, its just a cat, that's what they do". Well part of having a domesticated animal is preventing some of this behavior...like I do with my dogs.

Their nature should be taken into consideration (like it is with any other predatory pet) when people decide to just let their cats run free...instead its not only ignored, its negative effects are consistently belittled.

I used to have a bunch of black squirrels in my neighborhood, they were really interesting and people often stopped as they were such a rarity...2 years ago the lady down the street started feeding the wild cats (lots of farms in the area), now the population of feral cats is through the roof and there are no more black squirrels left....and they get into my boat use it as a litter box and have babies under my porch....I used to see all kinds of birds, pretty song birds, birds of prey...now its just sparrows (which are ironically, invasive).

 

[Trenor]

I would like to take this moment to apologize to @VanessaS for my part in derailing the cool cat thread she started.

 

[Ellenantula]

That's like saying that since we have burnt so much of the rain forest down we should not complain that someone wants to set the rest on fire.

Excellent! You DO understand. hehe

I admit, even seeing the numbers (there was a British documentary once on how much wildlife cats killed) I cannot state, with a straight face, that cats should never be allowed outside. I consider their hunting sad but natural. I've heard of people putting bells on their cat collars to limit kills... and cats just learn to hunt smarter. As in Jurassic Park, you cannot deny an animal's instincts.
As humans we do see this as sad, but I see it as a necessary part of animal life. Enrichment. Animal-fulfillment. You can only control animals just so much before their true nature prevails. It's their wild nature that attracts us in the first place. When your cat hunts its indoor toys or stalks imaginary carpet mice... it's dreaming of real wildlife kills. You can't undo natural instinct and I don't wanna even try.

 

[Ellenantula]

Their nature should be taken into consideration (like it is with any other predatory pet) when people decide to just let their cats run free...instead its not only ignored, its negative effects are consistently belittled.

I admit, no shortage of wildlife where I live, so seriously not really seeing a real dent in bird/squirrel populations here. I view it as a circle of life.
That said, I never see a frog anymore. And that is sad to me. I don't know what took them out. I've read about decreasing bee populations but not witnessed that here either. I do miss the frogs though.