Tarantulas Seized by Colombian Authorities

[Patherophis]

I'm not putting the Invert vs pdf hobby against each other, but the invert hobby could learn some lessons here.
There are still occasional/regular legal imports of pdf's into the U.S. mostly through Panama. PDF hobbyists are so vigilant they won't even mix imports.

Say you have a frog from locale X imported in 2020, then another import from locale X in 2021. Hobbyists will keep those two import bloodlines separate. Because they can't be sure locale X in 2020 is the same locale X in 2021, even though the frogs may look identical.
I don't see that happening in the invert hobby. An imported Pamphobetus sp. Tiger stripe (made up name) will always be paired with another imported Pamphobetus sp. Tiger stripe regardless of locale or time of import. That's wrong. There should only be pairings from the same import. Not across different imports.

BTW I've missed you guys.

Deep respect for this, I wish such approach to stock purity was more common across hobbies.

 

[Jumbie Spider]

I don't see that happening in the invert hobby. An imported Pamphobetus sp. Tiger stripe (made up name) will always be paired with another imported Pamphobetus sp. Tiger stripe regardless of locale or time of import. That's wrong. There should only be pairings from the same import. Not across different imports.

In a way this supports the case for WC.

 

[Frogdaddy]

yea ur wrong paul becker got in alot of trouble for smuggling matter of fact they tossed a book at him so hard he ratted out just about everyone he knew btw

I'm not familiar with the case. I do know that the owner or Strictly Reptiles in FL was caught trafficking illegal animals. Still in business to this day. Even had a book written about him and his exploits, The Lizard King.

In a way this supports the case for WC.

I'm in no way saying we should do away with legal imports. We will need that new wild blood to prevent a genetic bottleneck in generations to come. However the illegal collection and trafficking of animals should stop. It's rampant in Europe, much worse of a problem there then in the U.S. Some have said that illegal wildlife is the EU's third largest economy.

 

[viper69]

I'm not putting the Invert vs pdf hobby against each other, but the invert hobby could learn some lessons here.
There are still occasional/regular legal imports of pdf's into the U.S. mostly through Panama. PDF hobbyists are so vigilant they won't even mix imports.

Say you have a frog from locale X imported in 2020, then another import from locale X in 2021. Hobbyists will keep those two import bloodlines separate. Because they can't be sure locale X in 2020 is the same locale X in 2021, even though the frogs may look identical.
I don't see that happening in the invert hobby. An imported Pamphobetus sp. Tiger stripe (made up name) will always be paired with another imported Pamphobetus sp. Tiger stripe regardless of locale or time of import. That's wrong. There should only be pairings from the same import. Not across different imports.

BTW I've missed you guys.

The vigilance you and I are aware of is not in the T hobby. A case by case basis unfortunately.
As a former T importer taught me eons ago, unless you collected it yourself you’ll never know where it’s from, esp from S America,
and SE Asia

yea ur wrong paul becker got in alot of trouble for smuggling matter of fact they tossed a book at him so hard he ratted out just about everyone he knew btw

He’s not wrong. Becker is the exception not the rule.

At the end of the day non-human animal life law violations have a significantly lower level of legal punishment due to man’s egocentrism.

 

[Frogdaddy]

He's not wrong. Becker is the exception not the rule.

At the end of the day non-human animal life law violations have a significantly lower level of legal punishment due to man’s egocentrism.

In reality a lot depends on the animal trafficked. People despise spiders, other than the 2000 members here, no one cares if spiders are illegally collected and smuggled. Now try that with Koala bears and listen to the public outrage.

 

[YungRasputin]

1) i have heard it repeated several times throughout the years that arachnid keeping was originally brought into existence by illegal means (animal trafficking) and yet i have never seen anything to substantiate said claim - i think it’s curious that this is so often repeated with nothing backing it, particularly as it feeds into narratives of why arachnid keeping is somehow bad

2) illegal animal trafficking occurs in North America just as it does in Europe - i don’t think the report in the OP is a sufficient explanation for why prices in Europe are significantly lower than in North America

in fact, i think high prices are a cultural issue as in, North American (hyper)capitalism is to blame if anything

i mean, if i started call out threads on AB, FB groups, etc how long would those threads stay up? how long would it be until hobby sycophants came to the rescue of the “smol bidness beans”? how long would a business last if they went in and significantly undercut all competitors to pieces, before being ostracized? i think the fleecing of us keepers in North America is a lot deeper than simply pointing to 1 news article about 1 seizure in Germany

 

[jrh3]

smugglers are committing a crime and should receive a just sentence if caught, they know what they are doing

what about the people who purchase them from the smugglers, and the ones that receive offspring from the ones smuggled that were bred. Just like t. seladonia. Should all t. seladonia owners receive a just sentence too, because without a purchaser the seller is not gonna smuggle. Look at the species that would not be in the hobby if it wasn’t for smuggling.

 

[Frogdaddy]

1) i have heard it repeated several times throughout the years that arachnid keeping was originally brought into existence by illegal means (animal trafficking) and yet i have never seen anything to substantiate said claim - i think it’s curious that this is so often repeated with nothing backing it, particularly as it feeds into narratives of why arachnid keeping is somehow bad

2) illegal animal trafficking occurs in North America just as it does in Europe - i don’t think the report in the OP is a sufficient explanation for why prices in Europe are significantly lower than in North America

in fact, i think high prices are a cultural issue as in, North American (hyper)capitalism is to blame if anything

i mean, if i started call out threads on AB, FB groups, etc how long would those threads stay up? how long would it be until hobby sycophants came to the rescue of the “smol bidness beans”? how long would a business last if they went in and significantly undercut all competitors to pieces, before being ostracized? i think the fleecing of us keepers in North America is a lot deeper than simply pointing to 1 news article about 1 seizure in Germany

Price is a function of supply and demand. Economics 101.
If you want a spider bad enough you'll pay the asking price. If you don't want it that bad you won't pay it. The only value a spider has is the one YOU place on it. You might be willing to pay $200 for a certain species, I might not want to pay over $10 for it, or I wouldn't want it if you paid me $200 to take it.

 

[Smotzer]

The invert hobby doesn't yet have the balls to do it.

We all need to or conversations like this are pointless because...

, we are going to have to collectively put our money where our mouths are if we want to be able to lament this state of affairs, as this state of affairs has been going on for a long time and we all still seem rather happy to dole out money for the Next Big Thing, whether that's Ornithoctinae sp. "Honsej" or a new species of Typhochlaena.

If not we are being angry about a problem we are creating cyclically and perpetually by supporting the purchases of the Next Big Thing, from big online dealers and taratula wholesalers. If we truly want to cry out rage we have to stop supporting all the wild insane purchasing of expensive new species and especially of underscribed species, and those in countries whose laws do and dont protect them.

while turning a blind eye towards how, practically regardless of what you buy or where you get it from, the majority of specimens in captivity (regardless of species) are the descendants, sometimes quite recently, of smuggled animals.

Exactly, we are all part of it. whether we all want to be mindful and aware of that is another matter all together.

 

[Nightstalker47]

As a challenge to all readers, see if you can trace back the first legally issued export license for a particular species/locale of spiders, and then match the timelines for when said species entered the hobby.

 

[YungRasputin]

Price is a function of supply and demand. Economics 101.
If you want a spider bad enough you'll pay the asking price. If you don't want it that bad you won't pay it. The only value a spider has is the one YOU place on it. You might be willing to pay $200 for a certain species, I might not want to pay over $10 for it, or I wouldn't want it if you paid me $200 to take it.

supply/demand is a myth and, further, there is a v real economic critique of the concept outright - corporations raise the prices of their commodities without there being any connection to supply shortages or disruptions in supply chains all the time

what i also find curious here is North America’s proximity to South America, where a lot of expensive species originate, and, additionally, a subculture in which it seems, at present, everyone and their mum is trying to become a professional breeder and get into the trade or become some hot shot YTer

we’re also talking about animals which produce egg sacs containing hundreds of offspring at a time - so, in short, no, i don’t think that’s a sufficient explanation for the phenomenon

 

[viper69]

explanation for why prices in Europe are significantly lower than in North America

there are more breeders there.

in fact, i think high prices are a cultural issue as in, North American (hyper)capitalism is to blame if anything

there’s truth to that IMO
I regularly compare prices at TCan with USA. More often than not, Martin has some great pricing for species he imports at times.

 

[Frogdaddy]

As a challenge to all readers, see if you can trace back the first legally issued export license for a particular species/locale of spiders, and then match the timelines for when said species entered the hobby.

Aww dude homework?
Sorry had to add:
I get where our spiders came from 20 years ago. Yes many spiders we all have are descendants of illegally collected specimens. We can not change the past. What is done, is done. None of us can go back in time unless you have a Delorean. All we can do is change how things are now. Moving forward from this point. As a hobby we have to resolve that illegal or even questionable animals won't be purchased. Vett your vendor. If we don't change things now what will the future look like?

 

[Edan bandoot]

supply/demand is a myth

Ya man we're definitely forced to buy these spiders

 

[YungRasputin]

Ya man we're definitely forced to buy these spiders

how do spiders differ from other commodities? tobacco companies increase prices all the time of say, cigarettes, even tho nothing changed as far demand or supply is concerned, and people pay this - how is the arachnid trade different?

I am convinced Americans just like paying more for things because it’s clear to me certain price ranges have been established with certain species and everyone within the trade wants to of course, maximize profits - so that’s why P. metallica is $120+ usd comparative to €10-20 when i would be willing to bet supply and availability is comparable

 

[Hakuna]

how do spiders differ from other commodities? tobacco companies increase prices all the time of say, cigarettes, even tho nothing changed as far demand or supply is concerned, and people pay this - how is the arachnid trade different?

I am convinced Americans just like paying more for things because it’s clear to me certain price ranges have been established with certain species and everyone within the trade wants to of course, maximize profits - so that’s why P. metallica is $120+ usd comparative to €10-20 when i would be willing to bet supply and availability is comparable

We’re comparing Ts to cigarettes now? They’re not that addictive lmao

 

[YungRasputin]

We’re comparing Ts to cigarettes now? They’re not that addictive lmao

i mean, the same could be said of virtually any commodity but it’s funny you say this also

 

[Matt Man]

the price is "what the market will bear" so if people pay it there it is. It just depends whether sellers are willing to undersell the competition. Another seller had a fresh batch of P. salmi slings that I assume he'd bred himself. He went super low
on the price and no one else could compete, so I saw the market in action, he didn't raise his price to going rate as I assume he wanted to reduce his supply

 

[YungRasputin]

the price is "what the market will bear" so if people pay it there it is. It just depends whether sellers are willing to undersell the competition. Another seller had a fresh batch of P. salmi slings that I assume he'd bred himself. He went super low
on the price and no one else could compete, so I saw the market in action, he didn't raise his price to going rate as I assume he wanted to reduce his supply

this is precisely my point tho i don’t think it’s on the consumer - i can kvetch all i want but the fact remains that if i am in the US and i want a P. metallica sling or some other species from the Poecilotheria genus i will have to pay $100+ usd as there is no other option

if you go with the major dealers you have to pay these absurd prices - if you go with local pet stores, not only will you be contributing to their but will also have to pay ridiculous prices there too, tho! $80-$100 for an adult B. hamorii does seem better than the $300+ you would have to pay from an established arachnid dealer

which is why your friend has the right idea and when i get my breeding projects going i am going to do exactly this - just flood the market with v cheap but high quality specimens to force price cuts

 

[Arthroverts]

how do spiders differ from other commodities? tobacco companies increase prices all the time of say, cigarettes, even tho nothing changed as far demand or supply is concerned, and people pay this - how is the arachnid trade different?

I am convinced Americans just like paying more for things because it’s clear to me certain price ranges have been established with certain species and everyone within the trade wants to of course, maximize profits - so that’s why P. metallica is $120+ usd comparative to €10-20 when i would be willing to bet supply and availability is comparable

Interesting point here, and I think it is at the very least partially true. I know there is some behind-the-scenes price controlling between vendors and wholesalers (I have seen it in action) to avoid crashing prices to the point that wholesalers can and will stop selling to certain vendors that drop the prices a bit too low.

However, another important consideration is the sheer volume of specimens available. Indulge my analogizing for a moment, perhaps in the whole of the US 50,000 P. metallica slings are produced every year for every, say, 10,000 enthusiasts. In Germany or Poland alone there are probably 500,000 slings produced for the same number of enthusiasts, which would explain why sellers there are able to provide not only all of Europe but also Asia and the Americas with specimens (ignoring CITES for a moment). This is possible because the hobby is more established, not to mention much, much larger, there, and therefore trying to control prices in the back rooms is not only more difficult, the sheer number of specimens that have to be sold (because it's not like sellers are going to sit on specimens for a long time if they aren't selling) dictates the maximum pricing of a given species before it stops selling.

In any case, I'd argue it's a mixture of the two viewpoints provided here.

Thanks,

Arthroverts