Tarantulas Seized by Colombian Authorities

QuinnStarr

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I hate that the description calls them “creepy crawlies”. Way to fall victim to stereotypes, stupid reporter.

But you’re right, probably not a good look. Aren’t we in enough hot water with the Pokie debacle? Idiots are going to make it nigh impossible to get new species into the hobby.
 

KillBoxSpider

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not the first time ive seen this kind of behavior im not even suprized no more whos feeding them and watering them would be my first worry
 

Craig73

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Late breaking news. 232 tarantulas that were seized by Colombian officials discover to have balloons with a white substance in their anus. Germans expected to provide impaction statement in coming days.
 

AphonopelmaTX

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So, this probably isn't a good look for the hobby:
I always thought it was an open secret that smuggling by Europeans who then legally export to the U.S. is how we get new species in the hobby. Do you think those who originally brought Typhochlaena seladonia into Europe, who then exported them to the U.S., had commercial collecting permits issued by the wildlife authorities of Brazil?

Ideally, all tarantula species we enjoy would be legally collected by permit of the country(ies) they are endemic to, but I don't think that is possible. So tarantula collectors need to make a decision- to stop buying tarantulas of dubious origin or stop complaining about how smuggling makes the hobby look bad. Simple as that.

But you’re right, probably not a good look. Aren’t we in enough hot water with the Pokie debacle? Idiots are going to make it nigh impossible to get new species into the hobby.
What is this "Pokie debacle" you speak of?
 

l4nsky

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I always thought it was an open secret that smuggling by Europeans who then legally export to the U.S. is how we get new species in the hobby. Do you think those who originally brought Typhochlaena seladonia into Europe, who then exported them to the U.S., had commercial collecting permits issued by the wildlife authorities of Brazil?

Ideally, all tarantula species we enjoy would be legally collected by permit of the country(ies) they are endemic to, but I don't think that is possible. So tarantula collectors need to make a decision- to stop buying tarantulas of dubious origin or stop complaining about how smuggling makes the hobby look bad. Simple as that.
Ahh the Pandora's box debate and the debate on the ethics of the fruit from the poisoned tree. Ranks right up there with humidity, inbreeding, and handling in terms of controversial subjects in the hobby lol. I don't really want to wade into these waters for the umpteenth time lol, but I appreciate this view point right here:
Ideally, all tarantula species we enjoy would be legally collected by permit of the country(ies) they are endemic to, but I don't think that is possible.
I'm 100% in agreement. In a perfect world, every country would have their #@!& together and would know every species in their borders, their reproductive rates, and the harvest quotas that can sustain a self reproducing population. This is far from the case, especially with undescribed species that don't even have solid taxonomy. How can you know an export limit or have a process for export if you don't even know the animal exists? Broadly speaking, is it more ethical to wait for all the ducks to line up in a row and hope the species doesn't go extinct in that time period, or is it more ethical to wait and see if there will be a conservation movement to preserve their habitat and hopefully, by extension, the species, or is it more ethical to break a few laws to extract a breeding colony to preserve the species for the future

Bottom line, I'm not encouraging, condoning, or promoting smuggling in any way, shape, or form. I will admit to being curious as to what side of history they'll eventually be seen on though. Will some be seen as biodiversity saviours credited with bypassing some ill-conceived laws of man and potentially saving species from extinction (ex P. metallica), or will they be villified and scapegoated for the crash of biodiversity by the industries that are deforesting and destroying the habitats on a massive scale?
 

dangerforceidle

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I always thought it was an open secret that smuggling by Europeans who then legally export to the U.S. is how we get new species in the hobby. Do you think those who originally brought Typhochlaena seladonia into Europe, who then exported them to the U.S., had commercial collecting permits issued by the wildlife authorities of Brazil?

Ideally, all tarantula species we enjoy would be legally collected by permit of the country(ies) they are endemic to, but I don't think that is possible. So tarantula collectors need to make a decision- to stop buying tarantulas of dubious origin or stop complaining about how smuggling makes the hobby look bad. Simple as that.
I didn't really give my own thoughts outside the glib one line, but I agree with you, they should not have been trying to smuggle the spiders. I'm not even complaining about it 'making the hobby look bad' -- to fix faults in something, the faults first need to be exposed. There are a lot of faults in the hobby.

However, incidents like this which get publicized may make it more difficult to acquire tarantulas through legitimate means, which is a bit of a concern.
 

QuinnStarr

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What is this "Pokie debacle" you speak of?
I’m not super educated on it so you’ll have to forgive, or correct, any factual mistakes here. And, to my fault, “debacle” may not have been the best choice of word there.

But isn’t there a whole thing going on with the entire Poecilotheria genus where we can’t move them across state lines because they’re endangered in the wild?
My understanding of it is that they’re so endangered due to poaching (is that the right word for this?) wild caught specimens for export to Europe and the US that even moving them between states is illegal at the moment. I can’t call up my guy in Virginia and have him ship me a P. metallica, no matter how much I would be willing to pay, because it’s illegal right now. I mean, technically, I guess he could but if one, or both, of us got nailed for it, that would just make the hobby look even worse.
I’d have to ask the only local person I know if he has one, or could get his hands on one legally in order to add it to my collection.

The reason I chose the term “debacle” is because one wrong step by a keeper and one word about that step to the wrong person is going to lead to headlines like “Tarantula owner found smuggling endangered animals throughout the US. More at 7pm - Back to you, Nancy.” Even if that person was just moving, say, 20 miles from northern Maryland to southern Pennsylvania and taking their collection with them. Lord knows how the right media person can sensationalize anything.
 

l4nsky

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I’m not super educated on it so you’ll have to forgive, or correct, any factual mistakes here. And, to my fault, “debacle” may not have been the best choice of word there.

But isn’t there a whole thing going on with the entire Poecilotheria genus where we can’t move them across state lines because they’re endangered in the wild?
My understanding of it is that they’re so endangered due to poaching (is that the right word for this?) wild caught specimens for export to Europe and the US that even moving them between states is illegal at the moment. I can’t call up my guy in Virginia and have him ship me a P. metallica, no matter how much I would be willing to pay, because it’s illegal right now. I mean, technically, I guess he could but if one, or both, of us got nailed for it, that would just make the hobby look even worse.
I’d have to ask the only local person I know if he has one, or could get his hands on one legally in order to add it to my collection.

The reason I chose the term “debacle” is because one wrong step by a keeper and one word about that step to the wrong person is going to lead to headlines like “Tarantula owner found smuggling endangered animals throughout the US. More at 7pm - Back to you, Nancy.” Even if that person was just moving, say, 20 miles from northern Maryland to southern Pennsylvania and taking their collection with them. Lord knows how the right media person can sensationalize anything.
So, somewhat good news here. Unless I'm totally and completely out of the loop, you can order a P. metallica from out of state and not suffer any legal consequences (not out of country mind you. I believe all Poecilotheria are CITES II now and they require additional paperwork on top of the standard import/export forms. Would love to hear otherwise.) You can't do the same with P. ornata though.

So, there are 5 species of Poecilotheria that have additional regulations within the US. Those are the 5 species in the hobby that are endemic to Sri Lanka (ornata, subfusca, fasciata, smithi, and vittata). Their interstate travel is controlled by the Endangered Species Act. From my research, what this act says you can't do is:
  • Buy, sell, trade, barter, or profit with them across state lines unless both parties have CBW permits from USFW for the species in the transaction (as of now, I don't think anyone is holding them for Poecilotheria). This means they can't be offered as freebies as well (you're technically profiting off the sale of the other animals in the transaction by dangling the restricted species as "free with purchase").
What the act says you can do is:
  • Buy, sell, trade, gift, profit, or barter within the same state with both people being residents of said state.
  • Give them as a bona fide gift to anyone. What this means is that you can ship and give away a restricted species to anyone in the US regardless of their state or permit status as long as there is no profit from the transaction, meaning you can get absolutely NOTHING in return. No trades, no favors, no future considerations, no cash, etc.
  • Participate in a standard breeding loan even out of state. What this means is that basically you can ship your male to a female out of state and the female's owner can ship the male and half the offspring back and the process will stay legal and not constitute "profiting".
  • Take them across state lines in a private collection when moving residences.
 

QuinnStarr

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So, somewhat good news here. Unless I'm totally and completely out of the loop, you can order a P. metallica from out of state and not suffer any legal consequences (not out of country mind you. I believe all Poecilotheria are CITES II now and they require additional paperwork on top of the standard import/export forms. Would love to hear otherwise.) You can't do the same with P. ornata though.

So, there are 5 species of Poecilotheria that have additional regulations within the US. Those are the 5 species in the hobby that are endemic to Sri Lanka (ornata, subfusca, fasciata, smithi, and vittata). Their interstate travel is controlled by the Endangered Species Act. From my research, what this act says you can't do is:
  • Buy, sell, trade, barter, or profit with them across state lines unless both parties have CBW permits from USFW for the species in the transaction (as of now, I don't think anyone is holding them for Poecilotheria). This means they can't be offered as freebies as well (you're technically profiting off the sale of the other animals in the transaction by dangling the restricted species as "free with purchase").
What the act says you can do is:
  • Buy, sell, trade, gift, profit, or barter within the same state with both people being residents of said state.
  • Give them as a bona fide gift to anyone. What this means is that you can ship and give away a restricted species to anyone in the US regardless of their state or permit status as long as there is no profit from the transaction, meaning you can get absolutely NOTHING in return. No trades, no favors, no future considerations, no cash, etc.
  • Participate in a standard breeding loan even out of state. What this means is that basically you can ship your male to a female out of state and the female's owner can ship the male and half the offspring back and the process will stay legal and not constitute "profiting".
  • Take them across state lines in a private collection when moving residences.
Okay, so I was way off on most of my understanding of what’s happening there and only partially right on what I did understand.

You are just chock full of all the facts, bud. Remind me to call you the next time someone asks me a question I don’t know the answer to.

This is all really good to know, though, and now I guess I can buy my metallica after Christmas.
 

l4nsky

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Okay, so I was way off on most of my understanding of what’s happening there and only partially right on what I did understand.

You are just chock full of all the facts, bud. Remind me to call you the next time someone asks me a question I don’t know the answer to.

This is all really good to know, though, and now I guess I can buy my metallica after Christmas.
I only know what I know and I'm glad to share it lol. Now if you ask me any questions on Aphonopelma, Grammostola, or most NW terrestrials, I'll have to defer you elsewhere lol.
 

viper69

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I always thought it was an open secret that smuggling by Europeans who then legally export to the U.S. is how we get new species in the hobby.
True! But not everyone knows this.

Europe esp the Hamm Show in Germany is the Gateway for this nonsense.

One can buy anything at Hamm.

And for Ts, like I always say where ever there’s a new species, there’s a German with 2 vials not far behind.
 

courtney1027

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It’s really sad those poor inverts must be so stressed out being poked and prodded why the take count of what in the shipment, as well as what happens afterwards. Will they be destroyed? The whole thing is just cruel and unfair to them.
 

zeeman

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I find this thread humorous. People wanting 100% legal "ideally" but willing to accept illegal export / import to get them new species. People throwing incorrect info out on Pokey's. Great Friday afternoon read, lol.

It's amazing the mental gymnastics we will do when we want something.
 

Wolfram1

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nah that's because we are not as greedy

i mean those are examples of regular prices right now in my area, i could go there tomorrow and get some if i wanted to

image_2021-12-04_001212.png

but yea smuggling isn't great, i think there was a post about that exact event yesterday already
 

viper69

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Poster yesterday

But to be fair, EU have been involved in breeding far long week than USA. They mastered sex ID of very small slings/juvi long before USA.
nah that's because we are not as greedy

i mean those are examples of regular prices right now in my area, i could go there tomorrow and get some if i wanted to

View attachment 405027

but yea smuggling isn't great, i think there was a post about that exact event yesterday already
We never see such low prices stateside. Though Canada via TCan does have good deals at times.
But EU, versi have always been over 30$ US or more from most dealers.
Irminia often 20-25$
 
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Wolfram1

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We never see such low prices stateside.
i know, its a shame.

There are some people wo try to keep prices high on purpose in europe as well, i know one personally and i would never buy from him since i don't want to support that, despite the fact he breeds species like T. blondi, P. ultramarinus, Xenestis sp. etc. which i really want to have. I am just not paying 30EUR more than anywere else, period.

C. versicolor are cheap because a lot of people breed them, P. irminia the same, you get slings almost all the time. Also i think prices from neighbouring slavic countries keep prices low.
 

Nightstalker47

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This hobby was the result of exotic smuggling, like it or not. If we could trace back all the ancestors of our current Ts id wager none were legally brought here.

EU always been more competitive on prices, nothing new. I wouldn't assume they are all that much worse then anywhere else to be fair, smuggling of spiders has only just recently been put on the map for the authorities.

It was a lot easier to get away with when nobody was watching. Everyone did it.
 
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