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Do tarantula's have memortys like do they remember things or do there brains/minds dont work like that??? Im intrested to know if anyone does know
Thats very intresting dave, i figure they would know where the burrow is thats instinct, but say i bought an usambara yesterday and at the pet store the guy had a hard time getting her out, and completely destroyed her burrow and pissed the thing off it was biting at the tongs and hissing and everything else, could it possible remember a stresful experience like that or no?Originally posted by RugbyDave
hey there
now for something ive been studying for a loooong time: the brain.
Now, who can really say.
and it depends on how youre using 'memory' --
like, do they remember where their burrow is? Probably? Is it from higher brain fxns? Probably not.. More likely due to small strands of silk and chemical "smell" -- (i use 'smell' very loosley
do they remember leaving the egg sac and maturing like we do? again, probably not..
its important to not get instinct and memory mixed up, you know. I did all my graduate and post graduate studies in Neuro-Coginitive disoders, with a large large focus on memory linkage. Now im in med school going for neurology....We studied memory on other species heavily (besides humans and chimps, by the way).
The first thing anyone should learn is that memory is a total-brain-function. There's not just ONE area of the brain specializing in memory. There are parts of the brain where memories are localized, but to recall a memory, there needs to be a large chain reaction of potassium (and a ton of other chemical messengers travelling between synapes and neuronal junctions) and ion channels opening up and closing in an exact replica of the original memory... that's put VERY VERY simply...
now the problem is, how do we get from potassium and ion channels to remembering what an orange smells like, or recalling the face a really cute girl (or boy) from 8th grade?
in order for all these things to be percieved by us, the human, our cerebral cortext (the 'grey matter' or outer cortex) needs to become a central meeting place. in other words, all the stimuli and information coming in from the thalamus and the rest of the brain eventually makes its way to the surface where it is deciphered and translated.
Where am i going with all of this?
well, tarantulas (and, consequently, NO other creatures) have cerebral cortexes. Well, monkeys do have a very basic cortex, but its not used in the same was as ours, and they can't speak since their anatomy doesn't resemble ours (they don't have a larynx or a set of vocal folds). Part of our evolution has been our ability to um, well, evolve a cerebral cortex. It is basically what gives us the ability to love, hate, dream, ideal, form opinions, etc. It's at the root of what really differentiates YOU from ME.... Without these bundles of myelinated axons and specialized nerves, none of our "human" natures would exist (speech, memory, cognition, racism, ideals and opinions and thoughts.....). This is a known fact. Chalk it up to pure evolution, a god, or whatever, but either way its fact
can animals be conditioned? a hardy YES!!!! can that be twisted to become emotions? Well, yes, some people do attach human emotions to animals.. there's nothing wrong with it.. we learn it from around age 1 ('symbolistic play', i believe Piaget termed it).. but it is important to remember that most spiders will never be tamed, unlike dogs.. Now who can say if we can ever change that...??? Hell, we've supposedly gone up to the freaking moon, right? =D
remember, we gave up instinct to get higher brain functions. T's retain instinct, but don't get the same brain as us
i hope this hasn't been confusing. I think it's pretty easy to understand.
let's keep this going.. T's are a large part of my life, and neurology is a deep deep love of mine.. .. hell i've spent a long time studying and learning it! It'd be interesting to see what other people think!
peace
dave
So if i understand correctly your theory is the only way they could remember something if it continued to happen over and over again??? Makes since, so something that happend 6 months ago was a one time thing the T wouldnt remember, im sorry if i seem stupid i just find it intrestingOriginally posted by Code Monkey
A simpler answer to the question is yes, but not for long. I've both seen myself, as well as read many reports from other T owners, that show they form associations with various stimuli. So long as that stimuli/associated result is reinforced every week or two the T will remember. However, let the reinforcement not be there for a few weeks and the memory goes away.
It's probably a primitive form of memory formed by the strengthening of particular nerve pathways in their cognitive portions of their nervous system. So long as whatever it is they're remembering keeps up frequently, the pathway remains reinforced and is remembered. But as soon as the regular stimuli stops, the pathways lose their boosting and return to a normal state.
I did say that alot of people note that animals can be conditioned, but as for T's, the conditioning won't stay. I'm going to say this, that I don't think you could 'train' a T to walk onto a button to get a 'treat' of a cricket, as we can do with pigeons and mice (and, i just saw in the lab that they're doing this with FROGS!!! thats pretty cool!)Originally posted by Code Monkey
It's probably a primitive form of memory formed by the strengthening of particular nerve pathways in their cognitive portions of their nervous system. So long as whatever it is they're remembering keeps up frequently, the pathway remains reinforced and is remembered
Well thanks i asked it cuz i was intrested in knowing how the T brain works, and reading your posts makes me more and more intrested in this topicOriginally posted by RugbyDave
I did say that alot of people note that animals can be conditioned, but as for T's, the conditioning won't stay. I'm going to say this, that I don't think you could 'train' a T to walk onto a button to get a 'treat' of a cricket, as we can do with pigeons and mice (and, i just saw in the lab that they're doing this with FROGS!!! thats pretty cool!)
EVERYTHING will repsond to stimuli, but that DOESN'T translate to memory. Hell, if you push a saftey pin into any animal, it will respond. With humans, its pain and hitting and screaming, and with an ant, its something as simple as noiciceptors firing off with some basic response (is it pain? Im not sure, im not an entomologist studying pain reception).. and even with amoebas, they will undulate away. ANY time ANY stimulus is given, a response is shown. The responses, however, do differ.
See, i would not classify that as memory. I would classify that more as a primitive form of 'conditioning' if you want, but even more so, its just bascially a respnse to a stimulus.
and there are no 'cognitive' portions of the nervous system in T's. Cognition is something uniquely human. Well, at the same time, WHO REALLY KNOWS IF T'S DREAM, but based on what we know of brains from ants to humans, cognition is something uniquely human.
in order for "cognition" to happen, there has to be a higher cerebral cortex, which T's don't have. It also comes down to a matter of space... thats why human brains are SO convoluted -- you can fit 3X the amount of brain in our heads that way!!
See, what you have to remember is that most of the "non-cognitive animals" (everything non-human) have devoted 100% of their brains to aligning with their instincts. The cerebral cortex is something unique to humans.
If you ever study neurology you'll learn all of this. It's actually quite interesting (opinion of course )...
but in order to have ANY form of memory ('primitive' or not) there needs to be a central relay station... humans are the only 'things' on this planet that has evolved the cerebral cortex to do that... thats why we can speak and dream and hate and want and wish and jones and beg and have opinions and be moved by colours and smells... consequently, it also allows us to form and remember memories.
its like saying as long as you keep giving a machine power, it will work, but as soon as you stop applying power, the machine stops working...
is it a working machine? well, yes as long as the initial stimuli is applied. But once that stimuli is pulled away, the machine just sits there.. So if there's no stimulus, is it a working machine? It all depends on your viewpoint i suppose...
wow, thats confusing even to me.
in liberal and conservative neurological - terms, i wouldn't classify that as 'primitive memory'. I would classify that as simple response. As long as you keep hitting me, i'll keep getting mad, you know as soon as you stop, we're cool. I have no reason to get mad as long as you refrain from hitting me, you know
i hope this clears up alot.
i've only spent 5 years studying this, and am in no-way a Neuro- guru.. well not yet
Also sean, uh, i think thats just the T getting mighty pissed at having to be moved from its burrow.. How angry would you be if you took some time to make yourself a nice little comfortable place to hang out (your room, lets say) and something just came out of no-where and and ruined it and took you out -- you'd be mighty angry..
The only difference is, the neural pathways in the T brain don't do the same things as in humans.. its only response would be ANGER, NOW! in 8 years, i don't think it would remember. It would still get angry if it happened again, or something, and the difference is, you, as a human, could form a memory,and possibly try to build your room of steel next time (man, i'm really striking out with examples today huh?). My brain is not working too well now, so i hope that kind of answers your question. I'll come back tonite and redo it but it works for now! =D
What it comes down to is a simple maxim: You need to have the right tools to do the job. If you don't have a brain wired with the memory-software, no matter what you do, you can't get a memory-response. Make better sense?
Next time im in the lab (a month?), I'll swing by the entomology dept at the U. They have about 45,000 specimens ( i believe) and i will dig through trying to find any research about this! T's don't need memory. Ameoba's don't need memory. Scorps don't need memory. They need instinct and food and sex. They dont need to idealise about corvettes vs. porches. They don't need to realise the negativity about the KKK. They don't need to worry about politics and hatred. They don't need to retain that information. All the information they need, they are pretty much born with. Its called instinct, and, as we evolve, we lost most instinct. We still do, however, retain that basic, limbic, mammilian part of our brain that focuses on the 3 S's and 1 F - Satisfaction, Sex, S*itting and Food That's literally how its written in the neurology books We do have that in common Man i could keep going, but im stopping
thats a real interesting question you asked, man!
peace
dave
Huh? I forgot how to do Calculus 5 minutes after the final exam was over, so who you calling primitive? ;POriginally posted by Code Monkey
It's probably a primitive form of memory formed by the strengthening of particular nerve pathways in their cognitive portions of their nervous system. So long as whatever it is they're remembering keeps up frequently, the pathway remains reinforced and is remembered. But as soon as the regular stimuli stops, the pathways lose their boosting and return to a normal state.