Tarantula Memory
- Thread starter Sean
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Exactly the post I expected... didn't you say you were leaving?
kellygirl
kellygirl
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Re: You want other peoples opinions...
I actually agree with a lot of that, I guess my view is that much of human memory is, when reduced to its esential parts, reaction and stimulus-response. We have more of a control of it because we can voluntarily choose to remember something, and so the stimulus is coming from an internal source rather than something external, but that doesn't make the remembrances of Ts any less remembrances. They aren't consciously aware of it, and it serves a very basic purpose, i.e. adjustment to certain situations involving food, shelter, etc, but I still think it qualifies as memory.
As far as striking the water goes, while this has happened sometimes with Ts I own, a far more common response is that some of the water splashes up and the T goes scrambling away, or even, where there is no visible contact, the T reacts in a startled manner. I see the 'ack, water, get it off, get it away' response a lot more often than the 'grab the water' behavior. Both, however, are reactions, but one involves a correct apprehension of what is going on, while the other doesn't.
also note the A. seemanni I noted earlier in this thread. It rounded on me like I was food then, apparently, new information came in via its chemoreceptive setae that indicated that, no, this is not food. Do some Ts blindly strike water repeatedly without seeming to understand what is going on? Yes. But there are times where Ts react to a stimulus in one way only to suddenly 'change their mind' based on new information coming in, often a prior correction of the original response. I'm not going to argue that tarantulas are self-aware, capable of forming thoughts and opinions, or capable of emotion. But I don't think that basic memory and learning are out of the question.
I also want to note the reactions my h. lividum, among others, often display toward being poked by something i'm holding. At first there is biting and threats toward the item the T is being poked with (pencil, piece of chopstick, etc) but then, if it keeps up, the spider seems to become 'aware' that there is more than meets the eye to the little scenario, and ignores the item, instead scrambling up it toward ME. This is entirely supposition, but is it really that far-fetched to believe that, in watching the motion of this object holding another object, the T rejects the initial aggression toward the held object and decides the real source of the problem is the hand holding it?
Adrian
I actually agree with a lot of that, I guess my view is that much of human memory is, when reduced to its esential parts, reaction and stimulus-response. We have more of a control of it because we can voluntarily choose to remember something, and so the stimulus is coming from an internal source rather than something external, but that doesn't make the remembrances of Ts any less remembrances. They aren't consciously aware of it, and it serves a very basic purpose, i.e. adjustment to certain situations involving food, shelter, etc, but I still think it qualifies as memory.
As far as striking the water goes, while this has happened sometimes with Ts I own, a far more common response is that some of the water splashes up and the T goes scrambling away, or even, where there is no visible contact, the T reacts in a startled manner. I see the 'ack, water, get it off, get it away' response a lot more often than the 'grab the water' behavior. Both, however, are reactions, but one involves a correct apprehension of what is going on, while the other doesn't.
also note the A. seemanni I noted earlier in this thread. It rounded on me like I was food then, apparently, new information came in via its chemoreceptive setae that indicated that, no, this is not food. Do some Ts blindly strike water repeatedly without seeming to understand what is going on? Yes. But there are times where Ts react to a stimulus in one way only to suddenly 'change their mind' based on new information coming in, often a prior correction of the original response. I'm not going to argue that tarantulas are self-aware, capable of forming thoughts and opinions, or capable of emotion. But I don't think that basic memory and learning are out of the question.
I also want to note the reactions my h. lividum, among others, often display toward being poked by something i'm holding. At first there is biting and threats toward the item the T is being poked with (pencil, piece of chopstick, etc) but then, if it keeps up, the spider seems to become 'aware' that there is more than meets the eye to the little scenario, and ignores the item, instead scrambling up it toward ME. This is entirely supposition, but is it really that far-fetched to believe that, in watching the motion of this object holding another object, the T rejects the initial aggression toward the held object and decides the real source of the problem is the hand holding it?
Adrian
geez, yes i was, but it happens. I'm making food now, then i'm leaving. I think adrian put it best last nite with: "And apparently I lied about going to bed.
"
Well, did you email him about your T? I think he'd be the best one to talk with about that stuff... I think T-death is one of his focuses...
Just cos we're snippy on the board doesn't mean anything...calm down...and also, if you really want to figure stuff out and try to really talk, lets do it over PM. I'd be more than happy to talk with you there about non-T stuff... however, i don't know if the feeling is mutual...take a deep breath first, and then PM me if you want, man!
back to food and then off to do some T-memory-research searching.
later
dave
"Well, did you email him about your T? I think he'd be the best one to talk with about that stuff... I think T-death is one of his focuses...
Just cos we're snippy on the board doesn't mean anything...calm down...and also, if you really want to figure stuff out and try to really talk, lets do it over PM. I'd be more than happy to talk with you there about non-T stuff... however, i don't know if the feeling is mutual...take a deep breath first, and then PM me if you want, man!
back to food and then off to do some T-memory-research searching.
later
dave
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adrian, no i don't think its far fetched for it to realise that the hand is the antagonizer.. if it strikes at the chopstick and gets no response, i think it would move on to the hand.. and if still got no response, it would strike at whatever else was moving!!!
and, i don't think basic learning is out of the question...
but, it all depends on your definition of memory, right?
I've got some Ts that strike water EACH time, and some that dont... Just differences of the "ATTACK" threshold of the neuron.
each neuron will only fire when it reaches a certain threshold, you know. Maybe for some T's, water pouring isn't one, but sneezing accidently is.. Ive got some T's that had to be dug out of aburrow and they don't show any aggression, meanwhile my lividum seems real angry
thats why this area of research is so rich -- we don't really know too much about it. I'm not covering my tracks or anything, i'm stating the simple truth!
why do some memories come flooding back with for no reason? Thats what we were studying when this year concluded.. no pleasure,no pain, just all of a sudden youreback in 4th grade, waiting for your mom to pick you up from school, and you can actually remember some shirt youre wearing..
thats one memory phenomenon that we know nothing about, which is pretty cool. there's no reason for it, and as quick as it comes, it leaves...randomly firing neurons? subconscious-escape-mechanism? who knows... thought you might like to know that.
ok, now i'm really off to finish food and hobble down to the university
later
dave
and, i don't think basic learning is out of the question...
but, it all depends on your definition of memory, right?
I've got some Ts that strike water EACH time, and some that dont... Just differences of the "ATTACK" threshold of the neuron.
each neuron will only fire when it reaches a certain threshold, you know. Maybe for some T's, water pouring isn't one, but sneezing accidently is.. Ive got some T's that had to be dug out of aburrow and they don't show any aggression, meanwhile my lividum seems real angry
thats why this area of research is so rich -- we don't really know too much about it. I'm not covering my tracks or anything, i'm stating the simple truth!
why do some memories come flooding back with for no reason? Thats what we were studying when this year concluded.. no pleasure,no pain, just all of a sudden youreback in 4th grade, waiting for your mom to pick you up from school, and you can actually remember some shirt youre wearing..
thats one memory phenomenon that we know nothing about, which is pretty cool. there's no reason for it, and as quick as it comes, it leaves...randomly firing neurons? subconscious-escape-mechanism? who knows... thought you might like to know that.
ok, now i'm really off to finish food and hobble down to the university
later
dave
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I'm not someone who believes that there is necessarily a reason for everything -- at least, not a reason that makes any kind of sense -- so I will admit a memory could occur where there is no direct instigation, but even if a neuron is firing randomly, that's what is causing it to fire -- randomness.
As an aside, I think I've written more in this thread in the last day than I've posted in probably the prior 3 months. My initial reply had to actually be trimmed because the board won't let you post over 10000 characters in a post.
Adrian
As an aside, I think I've written more in this thread in the last day than I've posted in probably the prior 3 months. My initial reply had to actually be trimmed because the board won't let you post over 10000 characters in a post.
Adrian
Now, back to real subject at hand:
I'm at the university now (ah the joys of living 3 blocks from the U! )
I've found 3 articles talking about the neuro-bio of spiders, but nothing on T's fully, andnothing on memory fully. I have found one chapter talking about possibly testing memory-reponses in spiders (including T's)...
will post more as i find it
peace
dave
I'm at the university now (ah the joys of living 3 blocks from the U!
)I've found 3 articles talking about the neuro-bio of spiders, but nothing on T's fully, andnothing on memory fully. I have found one chapter talking about possibly testing memory-reponses in spiders (including T's)...
will post more as i find it
peace
dave
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Hmm.... so does anyone know why there is such a huge disparity between vision capabilities of various spiders?
kellygirl
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Well, Jumping spiders make really precise jumps and adjust for all sorts of different factors, so great eyesight is key. Consider also the kinds of Ts that usually get considered for better eyeight than the norm - arboreals like Poecilotheria and Avicularia. I haven't seen any research or data on the eyesight of the latter two, so that is conjecture, but it seems like living in the trees or doing a lot of timed leaping drives superior vision in some spiders.
Adrian
Adrian
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Hm, that makes sense. Arboreals need more accuracy to perform the jumps so perhaps certain species have adapted a stronger sense of sight in order to do so? Contrastingly, the terrestrials don't need to do these jumps and have little need for heightened sense of sight. And burrowers, spending most of their time underground (ie. in the dark) and so would have less need for good vision and more need for sensitivity of touch. What other creatures have naturally poor eyesight? Moles? Bats? Deep sea animals? Cave-dwellers?
At both of the school visits I have done with my tarantulas, children have said something about tarantulas having lots of eyes. When I explain to them that tarantulas use their sense of touch more than their sense of sight, they always ask why (gotta love kids!). And I don't have an answer for them. I have no idea why tarantulas have so many eyes but they see so little.
kellygirl
back from the U, and i've only found 3 books and a couple articles (eutz, fonzo and some other PhD students)... But i did email a couple of the big guys here at the U, and i'm hopefully dropping by the lab in a couple weeks to pore through the info there... should be interesting
most of the stuff is on inter-library loan though. I put in my name to get the info next, so i'll be bringing back stuff as soon as I get it...
as for sight, it really makes you wonder if the eyes on the T's are slowly on their way out the door, so to speak.
jumping spiders, however, use their eyes in amazing ways. Have you ever seen that video of the retina movement of salticidae? they're always moving around focusing and sharpening their vision.
later!
dave
most of the stuff is on inter-library loan though. I put in my name to get the info next, so i'll be bringing back stuff as soon as I get it...
as for sight, it really makes you wonder if the eyes on the T's are slowly on their way out the door, so to speak.
jumping spiders, however, use their eyes in amazing ways. Have you ever seen that video of the retina movement of salticidae? they're always moving around focusing and sharpening their vision.
later!
dave
getting away from some mighty off topic stuff, i found this.. not really anything to do with memory, but something to do with spider learning.. but there is still nothing about spider memory or more so, TARANTULA memory, and as we know T brains are different enough...
-----
"Spiders Have Discriminating Taste
By Larry O'Hanlon, Discovery News
specimen: A Lynx Spider
June 6 — Here's one more spidey sense for Peter Parker: a more discriminating palette.
It turns out that spiders can learn to prefer the taste of one food over another. A Florida study of newly hatched lynx spiders has shown that if started on a particular kind of grub, the spiders later prefer it even when offered a wider menu.
That means spider behaviors aren't all just instinct, said arachnologist Fred Punzo of the University of Tampa in Florida. Punzo made the culinary discovery about lynx spider hatchlings in his lab and his results will appear in the June 28 issue of the journal Behavioural Processes.
"Insects and spiders can learn," says Punzo. In fact, he says, they have the same basic neurological hardware as mammals, only simpler and easier to study.
Punzo revealed the lynx spider food preferences by first raising his own community of the common spider in his lab. After emerging from their egg sacs, three groups of 50 lynx spiderlings were fed nymphs, or juvenile forms, of three different cricket species that they would encounter in the wild.
Each group only ate one species of cricket for their first week of life.
Later, Punzo placed individual spiders, now adults, in a plastic arena where they were presented with savory crickets from all species at once. The spiders chose their childhood cricket food twice as often as those they had eaten later in life, said Punzo.
The result is surprising because spiders and insects traditionally have been thought to have pre-set, "hardwired" behaviors, like computer programs, that are set for life and can't be changed, said Punzo.
But if that were true, Punzo's spiderlings would not have been "imprinted" with a food preference. They would have had no preference at all.
"The results of this study are interesting from a point of view of behavioral sciences since they obviously represent the first demonstration of food imprinting in a spider," said arachnologist Martin Nyffeler of the University of Bern in Switzerland.
But besides just showing that spiders are a bit smarter and more flexible than previously thought, Punzo's work has implications for biomedical research, he said. Because their neurology is proving to be more like mammals, spiders and other insects could be as useful as mammals in neurological research.
Only spiders can be easier to raise and work with then rats and mice, Nyffeler said."
---
getting closer
peace
dave
-----
"Spiders Have Discriminating Taste
By Larry O'Hanlon, Discovery News
specimen: A Lynx Spider
June 6 — Here's one more spidey sense for Peter Parker: a more discriminating palette.
It turns out that spiders can learn to prefer the taste of one food over another. A Florida study of newly hatched lynx spiders has shown that if started on a particular kind of grub, the spiders later prefer it even when offered a wider menu.
That means spider behaviors aren't all just instinct, said arachnologist Fred Punzo of the University of Tampa in Florida. Punzo made the culinary discovery about lynx spider hatchlings in his lab and his results will appear in the June 28 issue of the journal Behavioural Processes.
"Insects and spiders can learn," says Punzo. In fact, he says, they have the same basic neurological hardware as mammals, only simpler and easier to study.
Punzo revealed the lynx spider food preferences by first raising his own community of the common spider in his lab. After emerging from their egg sacs, three groups of 50 lynx spiderlings were fed nymphs, or juvenile forms, of three different cricket species that they would encounter in the wild.
Each group only ate one species of cricket for their first week of life.
Later, Punzo placed individual spiders, now adults, in a plastic arena where they were presented with savory crickets from all species at once. The spiders chose their childhood cricket food twice as often as those they had eaten later in life, said Punzo.
The result is surprising because spiders and insects traditionally have been thought to have pre-set, "hardwired" behaviors, like computer programs, that are set for life and can't be changed, said Punzo.
But if that were true, Punzo's spiderlings would not have been "imprinted" with a food preference. They would have had no preference at all.
"The results of this study are interesting from a point of view of behavioral sciences since they obviously represent the first demonstration of food imprinting in a spider," said arachnologist Martin Nyffeler of the University of Bern in Switzerland.
But besides just showing that spiders are a bit smarter and more flexible than previously thought, Punzo's work has implications for biomedical research, he said. Because their neurology is proving to be more like mammals, spiders and other insects could be as useful as mammals in neurological research.
Only spiders can be easier to raise and work with then rats and mice, Nyffeler said."
---
getting closer
peace
dave
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actually...
That isn't really getting any closer to the T question since you are using info on a new spider versus Ts which are far more primitive. Same as using a jumping spider in the arguement it doesn't hold water since you are comparing apples to oranges.
Phil
That isn't really getting any closer to the T question since you are using info on a new spider versus Ts which are far more primitive. Same as using a jumping spider in the arguement it doesn't hold water since you are comparing apples to oranges.
Phil
I'm sorry if this has nothing to do with memory, and if it has nothing to do with tarantulas, and if people have discussed it before, but when 'smartness' and 'spiders' are mentioned I have to quote something about Portias:
> We may be uncomfortable with the idea of spider intelligence. After
> all, with a brain no bigger than a pinhead, a spider like Portia is
> supposed to follow rigid, simple behavior patterns. There's no much
> room in there for thinking. But from its deadly skill at mimicry to its
> elaborate attack strategies, Portia is one of the most behaviorally
> complex predators in the animal kingdom."
> We may be uncomfortable with the idea of spider intelligence. After
> all, with a brain no bigger than a pinhead, a spider like Portia is
> supposed to follow rigid, simple behavior patterns. There's no much
> room in there for thinking. But from its deadly skill at mimicry to its
> elaborate attack strategies, Portia is one of the most behaviorally
> complex predators in the animal kingdom."
we are getting closer
it is getting closer, since im looking in better and better places.. actually, from that journal, i got info on an article on "Neuro-Biology of Spiders" (including Ts) ...
to quote,also: "i found this.. not really anything to do with memory, but something to do with spider learning.. but there is still nothing about spider memory or more so, TARANTULA memory, and as we know T brains are different enough...
don't worry, i'm on the hunt..
and its true, i don't think anyone would argue with the fact that T's have highly complex behavious
look at what they did with salticidae and its jumping skill-- there was a study done with salticidae and different level platforms.. with food on the highest platform..
and those little buggers made it up to the top!
its pretty interesting..
but, as any person with common sense will say, and i think i'm quoting shultz here (could be Dr.Breene, though) "all bets are off when you study them in captivity"....
so much left to learn about these guys! i'm def getting close and closer... if youre looking for hidden gold, and you start to find a trail of diamonds and such, i'd def say you were getting closer.. hell, youre closer than you were before At least i know that there are articles studying the brain of spiders.. now we need to focus that onto Memory of Ts =D
pce
dave
it is getting closer, since im looking in better and better places.. actually, from that journal, i got info on an article on "Neuro-Biology of Spiders" (including Ts) ...
to quote,also: "i found this.. not really anything to do with memory, but something to do with spider learning.. but there is still nothing about spider memory or more so, TARANTULA memory, and as we know T brains are different enough...
don't worry, i'm on the hunt..
and its true, i don't think anyone would argue with the fact that T's have highly complex behavious
look at what they did with salticidae and its jumping skill-- there was a study done with salticidae and different level platforms.. with food on the highest platform..
and those little buggers made it up to the top!
its pretty interesting..
but, as any person with common sense will say, and i think i'm quoting shultz here (could be Dr.Breene, though) "all bets are off when you study them in captivity"....
so much left to learn about these guys!
i'm def getting close and closer... if youre looking for hidden gold, and you start to find a trail of diamonds and such, i'd def say you were getting closer.. hell, youre closer than you were before At least i know that there are articles studying the brain of spiders.. now we need to focus that onto Memory of Ts =Dpce
dave
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Re: actually...
The impression I've always gotten is that the designation of tarantulas and other mygalamorphs as primitive in relation to other spiders has more to do with the lack of trachae and the up-and-down movement of the chelicerae. If nothing else, tarantula neurology, and that of spiders in general, is so little understood that I would be surprised if the often-made designation of mygales as primitive was being made based on neurological factors.
That of course doesn't mean that it might not be true that tarantulas have more primitive neurology than lynx spiders, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence yet that this is necessarily so. Also, the major reason why I brought up the jumping spiders was not to say 'salticids can, therefore so can tarantulas' but rather, that if X animal with primitive neurology can remember, or see well, or develop prey preferences, then it is not reasonable to exclude these behaviors from other primitive animals based simply on the fact that they are primitive. Simultaneously, as you point out, it is also erroneous to suggest that because two spiders are both primitive lifeforms, and one can develop a prey preference or form limited memories, that this is true of the other as well. Actual study will need to be made on tarantulas themselves if we really want to find out the answers.
But I think it is interesting to see behaviors like these manifsting in animals most people would have dismissed as being capable of such things.
Adrian
The impression I've always gotten is that the designation of tarantulas and other mygalamorphs as primitive in relation to other spiders has more to do with the lack of trachae and the up-and-down movement of the chelicerae. If nothing else, tarantula neurology, and that of spiders in general, is so little understood that I would be surprised if the often-made designation of mygales as primitive was being made based on neurological factors.
That of course doesn't mean that it might not be true that tarantulas have more primitive neurology than lynx spiders, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence yet that this is necessarily so. Also, the major reason why I brought up the jumping spiders was not to say 'salticids can, therefore so can tarantulas' but rather, that if X animal with primitive neurology can remember, or see well, or develop prey preferences, then it is not reasonable to exclude these behaviors from other primitive animals based simply on the fact that they are primitive. Simultaneously, as you point out, it is also erroneous to suggest that because two spiders are both primitive lifeforms, and one can develop a prey preference or form limited memories, that this is true of the other as well. Actual study will need to be made on tarantulas themselves if we really want to find out the answers.
But I think it is interesting to see behaviors like these manifsting in animals most people would have dismissed as being capable of such things.
Adrian
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Just one answer!!!
D A V E is back!!..
D A V E is back!!..
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Everything you said Dave brought me back into my psychology class, we studied the brain for about a month, I learn a little, and we learned about animals memorys too, I actually understood everything you said. Seems like a really awesome field of study. I want to go to college to be a pyschologist possibly, It would be awesome. Anyway, i think everything Dave said is right about all the memory stuff, but then again, We're not T's so we can never really know. But.... Yeah you know....
Mike
Mike
yes he is back
and mike, i took one invert behaviour class, and its SO much different than animal behaviour/psych classes..
invert psych was all science, very cool. vert/mammal psych was too theoretical for me.... I think alot of people should take one (if you can find one near you).. i mean, we get alot of info on here, and the net, and from other people, but you really do learn ALOT in an invert behaviour class.
you can really learn alot!
peace
dave
and mike, i took one invert behaviour class, and its SO much different than animal behaviour/psych classes..
invert psych was all science, very cool. vert/mammal psych was too theoretical for me.... I think alot of people should take one (if you can find one near you).. i mean, we get alot of info on here, and the net, and from other people, but you really do learn ALOT in an invert behaviour class.
you can really learn alot!
peace
dave
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i find this thread absolutely fascinating.
hooray for whoever began it and for those who continued it with such enthusiasm.
dreams and memory are something that will probably be debated forever...especially the first one.
also...everyone, note this:
even facts are theories that just haven't been disproven yet. we don't know ANYTHING for sure.
regardless of what college professors/evil geniuses/whoever is teaching, we do NOT fully understand the human brain, much less animal brains.
i think anything said in regards to such elusive concepts can only be stated conjecture and nothing more.
when we can give an exact answer to exactly why certain things work as they do in the human mind, great...that means we'll understand the HUMAN brain and mind.
however, we already know that even between the sexes memory is different in humans as is brain function.
i think to expand our ideas to animal/invert/insect brains/minds is simple folly.
however, i do think it makes an engrossing discussion topic.
hooray for whoever began it and for those who continued it with such enthusiasm.
dreams and memory are something that will probably be debated forever...especially the first one.
also...everyone, note this:
even facts are theories that just haven't been disproven yet. we don't know ANYTHING for sure.
regardless of what college professors/evil geniuses/whoever is teaching, we do NOT fully understand the human brain, much less animal brains.
i think anything said in regards to such elusive concepts can only be stated conjecture and nothing more.
when we can give an exact answer to exactly why certain things work as they do in the human mind, great...that means we'll understand the HUMAN brain and mind.
however, we already know that even between the sexes memory is different in humans as is brain function.
i think to expand our ideas to animal/invert/insect brains/minds is simple folly.
however, i do think it makes an engrossing discussion topic.