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Systematic revision of Brachypelma, new genus described.

Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by The Grym Reaper, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. Sykomp

    Sykomp Arachnopeon

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    To be fair - that's quite terrible latin pronounciation, I'd definitely advice against trying to copy that. Sadly I find that google translate isn't always very accurate when it comes to latin pronounciations in general... Though obviously I can't claim to be an expert either. I've studied latin only for few years in university (and I'm native Finnish speaker, if that matters).
     
  2. CommanderBacon

    CommanderBacon Arachnoknight Active Member

    If you select the Spanish pronunciation, it is closer. The word is Nahuatl, not Latin.
     
  3. Feral

    Feral Arachnobaron Active Member

    Oh, please don't say this! You're just making the confusion worse. I know you said it was close-ER, which is qualifying, but only by the tiniest margin.

    Nahuatl is not Spanish, not even related, not even close! The languages are a world apart, literally. Yes, Nahuatl borrowed the Spanish language's letters in order to write, but that's only because it was an unwritten language (only spoken) before the Spainards came to the Americas. But Nahuatl was a fully developed language in its own right looooong before the Spanish came here. It's like Cherokee (and all other indigenous languages) in that way, too- Cherokee was also unwritten before the Europeans came, so it borrowed their letters to be ablue to write their language. (It can also be written in the Syllabary, but that a whole other thing.) But it's JUST the letters the Nahuatl borrowed, not the sounds. The sounds the letters make can be entirely different than would that would make in Spanish!
     
  4. CommanderBacon

    CommanderBacon Arachnoknight Active Member

    It is closer! If a transliteration of Nahuatl via Spanish syllabary is all we have to go by, using the Spanish pronunciation isn't an unforgivable sin, imo. The native speakers who have provided recordings of themselves saying the word sound very similar.
     
  5. pps

    pps Arachnopeon

    That's why I said "something like", I never use that to know how things should sound in Latin. Is Polish version closer to your understaning of Latin? I didn't check it before, but it's almost exactly how I would pronounce that, except that obvious unnatural robotic feel and weird ending where GTranslate create longer pause between 't' and 'l' than I would do https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=pl&tl=es&text=Tlil tocatl

    Fortunately we know now how it should be pronounced in Nahuatl, so this discussion about Latin is only "academic" :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
    • Like Like x 3
  6. Sykomp

    Sykomp Arachnopeon

    Oh yeah! The polish one is in fact way closer to something it could be said as in latin. Many people outside this discussion do not have the information how to pronounce it the native way and are struggling (I've already seen quite a few tliltocatl pronounciation memes circling around), or will just think every scientific name should be pronounced as latin.
    What inspired my original comment was the thought that since many people will likely try to pronounce it the "latin" way anyway, I sincerely hope nobody uses the google translate latin as basis for trying that. Google translate has its uses, but it is not a reliable tool for many languages - and latin falls in that category, both in pronounciation and grammar.
     
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  7. Feral

    Feral Arachnobaron Active Member

    I went and listened to the google translate, set on Spanish, interpretation of "Tliltocatl". It is absolutely not pronouncing it anywhere near correctly! And that means it's not pronouncing it like the audio files of correct pronunciation, either! Instead of saying something close to "kleel toh cock", it is saying "tuh leel toh caht ul". It's also putting the accent in the wrong place, it's putting it on the "leel" instead of on the correct "to". The vowels in Nahuatl and Spanish are similar, and in this case the pronunciation of the single "l" and the single "t" indivually are similar, but Spanish has no combination of T and L to make the Nahuatl "tl" sound or even anything similar. The "tl" sound just doesn't exist anywhere in Spanish! Because of this, it is pronouncing the the two letters individually, and this couldn't be more wrong.

    Go set GT on Spanish and listen to the word "Nahuatl", which it actually says pretty correctly because (shockingly!) it uses Nahuatl pronunciation rules, not Spanish rules for that one word. (Spanish rules would say "nah HUa tuh ul" and Nahuatl rules say something close to "nah wahk".) It probably gets Nahuatl pretty right because it's such a common word in Mexico and a couple other countries. But listen to it and you'll see the difference between how the ending sound of the "tl" is pronounced when it says "Nahuatl" versus when it says the ending sound of the "tl" in "Tliltocatl ".

    [edit- Also, you don't mean "syllabary" in that context. You mean a pronunciation guide. A syllabary is an absolutely different thing, and I think confusing the two should be avoided.]
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  8. CommanderBacon

    CommanderBacon Arachnoknight Active Member

    Meh, it's not awful, but this isn't a hill I'm gonna die on!

    The Spanish Google translator's digital pronunciation really is close to the recordings I've listened to by native speakers, by my ear - but also as noted by other native speakers I've seen comment on this topic. I'm not getting hung up on the tl sound because presumably a native speaker would understand that the true sound is difficult for non-native speakers to make, and the vowels are good. Also, a person with any common sense should realize that the digital pronunciation is a bit robotic in the first place, so that tl noise is really clunky.

    IMO we don't all need to become linguists to nail down this new genus name, just make ourselves understood.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  9. Blonc

    Blonc Arachnoknight Old Timer

    The name change covers the Nicaraguan T's as well I take it?
     
  10. Feral

    Feral Arachnobaron Active Member

    This was sent to me today by the same Nahuatl student and Nahuatl speaker/teacher team who provided the info and audio clip in my previous posts, and who support this Anglicized pronunciation for non-native people. They gave me permission to use.
    It's both hilarious and legit, enjoy and feel free to share.


    image.jpeg
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  11. Feral

    Feral Arachnobaron Active Member

    Another native Nahuatl speaker and teacher, J. Adrián Pérez, and I spoke yesterday about proper pronunciation. (He's the same person who made the Nahuatl pronunciation video I posted earlier in this thread.) He said he'd make a video on the pronunciation of Tliltocatl, and WOW did he ever! This is brilliant!

    PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO LIKE, COMMENT TO SAY THANK YOU, AND SHARE HIS VIDEO!

     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
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  12. The Grym Reaper

    The Grym Reaper Arachnoreaper Arachnosupporter

    I don't know if it's because I'm English but the Nahuatl pronunciation sounds more like "kleel-toh-cat" to me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  13. AphonopelmaTX

    AphonopelmaTX Moderator Staff Member

    Just the Nicaraguan tarantulas that belong to the genus Brachypelma.
     
  14. Feral

    Feral Arachnobaron Active Member

    Are you talking about the A or the T in "cat"?

    If you're saying it sounds to you like T instead of K sound, I could totally see that. There's a fine line between how our ears hear T and K sounds, and it's only a very slight difference in how the mouth forms it. And the breath behind it is exactly the same. So I totally get it. I think it could be totally accurate to say "kleel toh cot" as long as that T in "cot" is very crisp. But that's why I went with K, because Ks are always crisp but our Ts in the middle to ends of words are often dulled. (Like how many people pronounce little as "liddul".) But yes, I think you have a very valid point about the ending T/K sound.

    If you mean it should be an A sound as in "cat", instead of the A sound in "cock"... It depends how you pronounce "cat". It depends on how round or flat the A is said in your own language/accent... Like, I'm from the American Midwest and most people here have As so flat they're Z sharps. So thier pronunciation of cat is very different than others, as an example. But Americans/Canadians/Brits all say the A sounds in "father", "caught", and "cock" pretty much the same. But yeah, the Nahuatl A sound is definitely "ah" as in cock. The guy who did the video above verifies this in his video I posted earlier in the thread on Nahuatl letter pronunciation.

    Thank you for being thoughtful enough to try to be correct!
     
  15. Blonc

    Blonc Arachnoknight Old Timer

    I'm guessing I should have been clearer with my question. I should have asked if this means both the Honduran albopilusums and the Nicaraguan albopilosums get that name change?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. The Grym Reaper

    The Grym Reaper Arachnoreaper Arachnosupporter

    The "T" at the end. The "A" is weird, I'm not sure if I can correctly explain how it sounds to me but it's as if it lies somewhere between the "oh" in "Cot" and "ah" in "Cart".

    Yeah, kleel-toh-cot with a crisp "T" actually sounds more right when I say it.

    It might just be my accent but the last syllable of kleel-toh-cock just doesn't sound right when I say it at all.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. AphonopelmaTX

    AphonopelmaTX Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, both would now be Tliltocatl albopilosum in the pet trade. But can we stop calling the white one "Nicaraguan form" and the brown one "Honduran form"? The white one is T. albopilosum and matches the original description of the tarantula from Costa Rica which would mean T. albopilosum occurs in both Costa Rica and Nicaragua. The brown one is yet to be confirmed to be a variant or a different species and should be referred to as Tliltocatl sp. "Honduran Curly Hair" or something similar. I just made up "Honduran Curly Hair". :) The full extent of their range has yet to be published.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. pps

    pps Arachnopeon

    Yes, both.

    There will be another paper, for Tliltocatl specifically, I wonder if they will mention about differences between albopilosum from Nicaragua and Honduras.

    For now:
    "Distribution
    Tliltocatl occurs in Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua and Costa Rica"
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. pps

    pps Arachnopeon

    I wonder if that's the last change of their names in the near future. There are these unanswered questions on Arachnida FB post:

    "As Tliltocatl is stated to be masculine, shouldn’t new combinations be T. albopilosus, T. epicureanus and T. sabulosus?"
    "Why didn't you change the gender of the names from neutral (as they were in Brachypelma) to masculine (as in Tliltocatl)?"

    Do we have some experts here? Is it likely that paper on Tliltocatl species will provide corrections to these names?
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Arthroverts

    Arthroverts Arachnoprince Active Member

    @Patherophis is one of the scientific name experts here :D.

    Thanks,

    Arthroverts
     
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