Systematic revision of Brachypelma, new genus described.

pps

Arachnopeon
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For names and their parts coming from different languages, both latin and original prononciations are acceptable, with original one being prefered when known.
Do you have some source on that? Not for me, I'm all for speaking that as it should sound in original language, but there are people who argue with me in other place and I would like to respond better than "arachnoboards users said that I'm right".
(Edit. Nevermind, it's waste of time, I'll just stop responding there)


I asked Jorge if the forvos pronunciations are correct or if there is something closer, but no response yet.
 
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Tuisto

Arachnosquire
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Jul 18, 2019
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I wonder how long until its changed again. T. albopilosum just feels wrong
 

pps

Arachnopeon
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How would you pronounce Tliltocatl according to "Latin rules"?
Something like https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=la&tl=es&text=Tliltocatl but I don't know the exact rules, and I don't know how to write these sounds. I speak Polish and it's somehow "intuitive" for me to say scientific names. Or at least later when I hear other people that are more likely to be correct (birdspidersCH for example https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbHE3xBkA2j5bMvtnI_46AA/videos ) it sounds exactly like my "intuitive" pronounciations.
 

Patherophis

Arachnobaron
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How would you pronounce Tliltocatl according to "Latin rules"?
@Ungoliant Latin (except for some extremely derived forms as English Latin) is very phonetic language, so You just have to read it as phonetic transkription, minding few differencis/exceptions.
I would transcribe my Latin prononciation of it as "tlil-to-katl". (Try typing "tliltokatl" into translator set on Czech).
 

Feral

Arachnobaron
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No.

I'm usually the first to stand behind science and its methods; I think I've made that pretty clear here on AB. But science and its rules don't give us free reign to be... um, poopheads.

Giving something an indigenous name and then purposefully Latinizing it is, like, the very definition of unacceptable appropriation!

They're taking an indigenous word and using it in a very respectful way, to honor some animals. Awesome! But then they're like "No, this isn't your word anymore, it's ours now and we can mangle it however we want because Science (with rules that we totally made up) says we can! It doesn't matter how, historically and in modernity, disregarded and abused and marginalized your culture and language is, we can further disregard and abuse and marginalized your language and culture because SCIENCE! Science excuses us from any morality or human decency, yay!"

NO.
 

pps

Arachnopeon
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I think it was author intent to pronounce it like original word, because he used exactly that word and not some different version, Tliltocatlus or something like that, which I think is typical with scientific names, right? :angelic: I completely agree with you @Feral :)
 

Ungoliant

Malleus Aranearum
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@Ungoliant Latin (except for some extremely derived forms as English Latin) is very phonetic language, so You just have to read it as phonetic transkription, minding few differencis/exceptions.
I would transcribe my Latin prononciation of it as "tlil-to-katl". (Try typing "tliltokatl" into translator set on Czech).
Applying Latin pronunciation to such a radically different language feels weird; Latin has a different set of phonemes and no "tl" equivalent.

That being said, I'm sure any attempt on my part to pronounce "Tliltocatl" in an authentically Nahuatl manner would fall short of the mark.
 

Patherophis

Arachnobaron
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366
Ack!

Knives! KNIVES IN MY HEART!

That just can't be allowed. It's so wrong, Latinizing an indigenous word.

And I'm not even of Aztec descent. I can't imagine!
Please dont take this offensive, but once it is used as scientific name, it by deffinition can.
 

SonsofArachne

Arachnoangel
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As it is known that pretty much anything goes as far as species names go, I don't see why they don't stick to Latin for Genus names. Since Latin is technically a "dead" language its isn't really culturally biased to use it, and using Latin in science is basically just a way of standardizing to keep multiple language names from being used for the same species, i.e common names, and so scientists who speak different languages can have common ground. Giving non Latin names is fine for species designation, but sort of defeats the purpose of using Latin for Genus or higher designations.
 

Feral

Arachnobaron
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Please dont take this offensive, but once it is used as scientific name, it by deffinition can.
Thank you, I appreciate your sentiment. But I can't help but be offended by something offensive.
And I sure many other people would feel the same way.
Giving something an indigenous name and then purposefully Latinizing/bastardizing it is, like, the very definition of cultural appropriation.
It hurts people. No matter who says it's "okay".

"Correct" and "right" aren't the same thing.
Just because it's accepted by whomever doesn't mean it's right, nor that you or I or anyone else has to accept it or abide by it.
Rules, no matter who is making them, never get changed until people start speaking up for what's right.

I need to say this clearly: "what science people say are the science rules" is just not an excuse for cultural exploitation/racism.
 

Patherophis

Arachnobaron
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No.

I'm usually the first to stand behind science and its methods; I think I've made that pretty clear here on AB. But science and its rules don't give us free reign to be... um, poopheads.

Giving something an indigenous name and then purposefully Latinizing it is, like, the very definition of unacceptable appropriation!

They're taking an indigenous word and using it in a very respectful way, to honor some animals. Awesome! But then they're like "No, this isn't your word anymore, it's ours now and we can mangle it however we want because Science (with rules that we totally made up) says we can! It doesn't matter how, historically and in modernity, disregarded and abused and marginalized your culture and language is, we can further disregard and abuse and marginalized your language and culture because SCIENCE! Science excuses us from any morality or human decency, yay!"

NO.
Calm down. It was hypotetical discussion, no one says it have to and will be latinized. And even if, I dont see anything bad about it. One great thing about nomenclature is that we use Latin, dead, politically neutral language. Oh man, I would never believe that someone can accuse zoological nomenclature of unacceptable appropriation. :rofl:
Applying Latin pronunciation to such a radically different language feels weird; Latin has a different set of phonemes and no "tl" equivalent.

That being said, I'm sure any attempt on my part to pronounce "Tliltocatl" in an authentically Nahuatl manner would fall short of the mark.
I agree it sounds and feels bad. As said original way is preffered, just answering how would it look/sound.



We wouldnt have these problems if more authors today would follow recomendations of ICZN:

"Authors should exercise reasonable care and consideration in forming new names to ensure that they are chosen with their subsequent users in mind and that, as far as possible, they are appropriate, compact, euphonious, memorable, and do not cause offence.
New names should be in Latin form; they should be euphonious and easily memorable, and should not be liable to confusion with those of other taxa of any rank."
- The Holy International Code of Zoological Nomenclature

Too many names today are very far from this ...
 

Patherophis

Arachnobaron
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Thank you, I appreciate your sentiment. But I can't help but be offended by something offensive.
And I sure many other people would feel the same way.
Giving something an indigenous name and then purposefully Latinizing/bastardizing it is, like, the very definition of cultural appropriation.
It hurts people. No matter who says it's "okay".

"Correct" and "right" aren't the same thing.
Just because it's accepted by whomever doesn't mean it's right, nor that you or I or anyone else has to accept it or abide by it.
Rules, no matter who is making them, never get changed until people start speaking up for what's right.

I need to say this clearly: "what science people say are the science rules" is just not an excuse for cultural exploitation/racism.
But there is nothing offensive about that.
There are many bad things in history, many bad things nowadays, but why do some poeple have need to made up offences where there are no?
Where did You get that "purposefull" part, it is usually done only when original prononciation is unknown.
 

Feral

Arachnobaron
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Calm down. It was hypotetical discussion, no one says it have to and will be latinized. And even if, I dont see anything bad about it. One great thing about nomenclature is that we use Latin, dead, politically neutral language. Oh man, I would never believe that someone can accuse zoological nomenclature of unacceptable appropriation. :rofl:

I agree it sounds and feels bad. As said original way is preffered, just answering how would it look/sound..
I am, have been, and will continue to be, perfectly calm.



See, it doesn't matter if you think people should or should not get offended. The ethnic majority and/or people not affected by the offense don't get to decide what is or isn't offensive and harmful to a marginalized minority!

This is absolutely not a hypothetical discussion. A sizable portion of this thread has been about how to practically, meaning in practice, pronounce and use a Nahautl word. We're talking about some very concrete, real-world applications for anyone reading this thread, now or in the future.

You noted yourself how easy it is to phonetically sound out Latin pronunciations, that's especially true for most all speakers of Romance languages and its relatives. And another bilingual member, @pps (I'm so sorry, pps!) noted how easy it is to intuite Latin pronunciations. It's certainly a snap for any of us Americans who remember even a smidgen of our high school Spanish, but even just a monolingual English speaker can figure out how to say most Latin fairly easily. So, when the average person is given a choice between two equally "correct" options: either A.) by saying a foreign word in a way that's familiar and easy for them to both sound out and physically produce the correct sounds, or B.) by saying a foreign word in a way that's difficult and confusing (quite likely impossible) to sound out because it's so alien to them and requires productions of sounds that even don't exist in thier own language... which pronunciation do you think most people will chose, the easier or the harder?

Anyone who reads this thread, now or in the future, may use this to determine how to pronounce that beautiful word, Tliltocatl. Let's be responsible about what we promote here.
 

Feral

Arachnobaron
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Okay, how about this-
Practical solutions, right?

I did find and contact a couple native speakers, I'll let you know if I hear back. And if someone else finds a native Nahuatl speaker before me, certainly be sure get the lowdown! Preferably audio recordings!

In the meantime...
I'm no expert but I have been doing some digging, have some related language experience, and have some insight. Until we get a native Nahuatl speaker, I think I can give us a reasonably accurate way to say the new genus name that also everyone can actually pronounce without weeks of practice. I know the actual accurate pronunciation of Tliltocatl seems super alien and intimidating. Those "tl" sounds just don't have a reasonable equivalent to an English speaker (or Spanish or Latin, etc.) and I'm sure it's the same with many other languages. It's a hard one, especially to do correctly! I know first hand from learning, it's a hard one and it takes a long while of practicing. So how about a more accessible and fairly correct, although slightly Anglicized, version? I have to think this is a much better choice than the mangled/inaccurate/offensive Spanish versions and the mangled/inaccurate/offensive Latinized version.

So unless you really want to really learn the intricacies of the word, then forget the complicated breathiness, nasalization, inflections, accents, and tonality and that über tricky final whisperbreath of an "l" on the end. Just simply say:

"kleel toe cock"

"Kleel" rhymes with feel, and then the English words "toe" and "cock". Just "kleel toe cock". It's very easy and very reasonably accurate and far better than the alternatives!

Agreed?
 

Arachnid Addicted

Arachnolord
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@Feral

Like I said before, I'm treating this nasal/breathy L as the simple form of it. Thats why after I took a look at this website I thought maybe, TL together, could be pronounce as "lue".

However, I got to think a lil bit more, and here're some doubts I have, since you are talking with a native, maybe you can try to help us here:

This "nasal/breathy" L pronunciation is something almost impossible that some will manage to pronounce so, can I treat it as "simple" L? Example: instead of saying "kleel toe cock", can I say "Leel toe col"?

The encounter T+L is valid only for the last one in the Genus name or the one at the beginning is algo considered?

In case both of the encounters are considered shouldn't we say "lue eel toe cah lue" like I was implying before? In case only the last one is considered than is your example "kleel toe cock", the nearest to the right pronunciation?

I understand your point and agree with them, this question came up because I dont have any idea how the TL encounter sounds like and even when I do hear from a native, I dont think I'd be able to say it right. Lol.

Hope we can find some answers. :)
 

Feral

Arachnobaron
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@Feral

Like I said before, I'm treating this nasal/breathy L as the simple form of it. Thats why after I took a look at this website I thought maybe, TL together, could be pronounce as "lue".

However, I got to think a lil bit more, and here're some doubts I have, since you are talking with a native, maybe you can try to help us here:

This "nasal/breathy" L pronunciation is something almost impossible that some will manage to pronounce so, can I treat it as "simple" L? Example: instead of saying "kleel toe cock", can I say "Leel toe col"?

The encounter T+L is valid only for the last one in the Genus name or the one at the beginning is algo considered?

In case both of the encounters are considered shouldn't we say "lue eel toe cah lue" like I was implying before? In case only the last one is considered than is your example "kleel toe cock", the nearest to the right pronunciation?

I understand your point and agree with them, this question came up because I dont have any idea how the TL encounter sounds like and even when I do hear from a native, I dont think I'd be able to say it right. Lol.

Hope we can find some answers. :)
I don't know if I understand everything you're saying, @Arachnid Addicted, so I'm going to go back and carefully reread and answer you more thoroughly, hopefully. But in the meantime, I wanted to say to everybody...




I found a recording of an actual Nahuatl speaker saying Tliltocatl, and I'm trying to get a copy of it. But even better, one of the people I reached out to just got back to me- he's a native Nahuatl speaker AND does educational Nahuatl language outreach projects. He said he could probably make a video for us tomorrow! Cross your fingers!

Until then, here is an accurate pronounciation video for Nahuatl. Maybe, since this has audio and visual, this will answer questions and erase doubts:
 

Thekla

Arachnoprince
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Thanks for the video. That helped a lot. And it's actually quite easy now to pronounce Tliltocatl the right way. I think the fact that I'm German helps as well because the Nahuatl pronounce the vowels the same way as I do. ;)
 
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