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Systematic revision of Brachypelma, new genus described.

Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by The Grym Reaper, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. Arachnid Addicted

    Arachnid Addicted Arachnobaron Active Member

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    Imo, only someone really fluent in Nahuatl could tell us.
     
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  2. pps

    pps Arachnopeon

    The second word, tocatl, read by native on Forvo (looks like it's not possible to link to the site with the word, so link directly to mp3) https://audio00.forvo.com/audios/mp3/o/9/o9_9441539_201_1217686.mp3

    But the name is composition of two words, maybe that should change the rules of reading the second part, I have no idea :)

    Btw. article (66 pages!) is available on https://sci-hub.se/ , it should be also available later on https://wsc.nmbe.ch/bibliography?bA...&bTitle=&bPublisher=&bTaxonIncluded=&search=s
     
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  3. Feral

    Feral Arachnobaron Active Member

    Excellent, very very helpful!

    In hearing the tocatl part pronounced out loud, the "tl" sound is far less like the breathy "l" I thought the one site was describing, and much much much closer (possibly exactly) to how "tl" is pronounced in other North American indigenous languages. Like, if I were going to pronounce "tocatl" in Cherokee, it would probably sound exactly like that audio clip. Fascinating! Thank you!!!
     
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  4. pps

    pps Arachnopeon

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  5. Feral

    Feral Arachnobaron Active Member

    Excellent! Many thanks!
    This one is also the same with the "tl" being pronounced more like almost a breathy "cl" like other nearish aboriginal languages. Fascinating.

    So it sounds like the best someone probably could do who doesn't have the "tl" in any of the languages they're used to speaking, like sole English speakers, is something like (^ denoting breathiness):
    ^cleel toh kah^cl
    Or if you really wanted to butcher/Anglicize it, just:
    cleel toh cock

    Incidentally, this would mean that maybe axolotl isn't "ax-oh-lot-ul" like we all say but actually:
    ah shoh loh ^cl
    But I checked on forvo, and it had two pronunciations- one like above but with the "tl" entirely silent, and one like above that pronounced "tl" like "tul". I'm thinking both might be incorrect, hmmm. Either way, "x" is definitely a "sh" sound, all sources agree on that.


    Anyway, thanks so much for the info! This is so totally interesting, I'm seriously happy as a clam right now! :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  6. pps

    pps Arachnopeon

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  7. Vanessa

    Vanessa Grammostola Groupie Arachnosupporter

    Guy Tansley says it is pronounced Lil-toe-cat-al.
     
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  8. Suidakkra

    Suidakkra Arachnosquire Arachnosupporter

    So from Brachypelma to Little cattle

    It's going to take a couple tries for it to absorb
     
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  9. The Seraph

    The Seraph Arachnolord

    USA
    Ooh, a Nahua name! Love it!

    I thought it was Tlil-to-catl, with the final tl being the same a beetle or little?
     
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  10. The Grym Reaper

    The Grym Reaper Arachnoreaper Arachnosupporter

    According to Jorge Mendoza on FB, Stuart Longhorn is right so B. fossorium is still a junior synonym of S. lanceolatum, it's something to do with the order in which the papers were published but Jorge says that the intention was to retire fossorium from Brachypelma and Tliltocatl without affecting Stuart's work.

    I've edited the OP to account for this.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  11. Feral

    Feral Arachnobaron Active Member

    No offense, @pps and @Vanessa, I know you're just repeating what those people said.

    So this is really bothering me and I gotta say it.

    I'm sure Jorge Mendoza (and Guy Tansley and whoever else) are fantastic, expert, professional arachnologists. Super duper accomplished with arachnids and whatnot. But I'm not sure if we should be taking advice about endangered indigenous languages from them.

    Frankly, the suggestion to put a Nahautl word through a Spanish translator is so ignorant it's almost offensive. Nahautl is not Spanish. Nahautl, like other related aboriginal languages, evolved and was spoken among a distinct culture looooooong before any Europeans brought their languages (i.e. Spanish) over. There has certainly been some Spanish influence since then, I imagine much like how English has influenced Cherokee or Cree or Comanche, but it is still its own, distinct language and has its own rules. Suggesting that we put a Nahautl word through Spanish translation would be the same as, and just as ignorant/offensive as, claiming that English pronunciation rules can be used to say Cherokee or Cree words.

    I'm not saying that my own attempt at pronouncing the word is correct, I don't speak that language so I could very well be completely wrong. (Though I do suspect that language's rules of pronunciation would be much closer to other indigenous American languages than to Spanish.) But let's at least try to be respectful toward marginalized people and their languages, especially endangered ones like Nahautl, and recognize/value them as their own distinct cultures.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  12. Vanessa

    Vanessa Grammostola Groupie Arachnosupporter

    He is saying the T are silent... just like the pronunciation guide states.
     
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  13. The Seraph

    The Seraph Arachnolord

    USA
    Agreed. Like saying that you can put Basque in a Spanish translator and it will be identical. I'm sure almost none of us are saying it correctly. A large part of it arises from the fact we have no sounds like that and so our alphabet does not have a character for it and we must make do with our own limited set. It is like the Chinese languages. Is it Hong Xiuquan, Fung Siuchhion, Hung Hsiuchüan or [xʊ̌ŋ ɕjôutɕʰwǎn]? No, it is 洪秀全, but we do not have those sounds in our language and we do not have the characters for it so we must make do. Same thing for Nahua.
    I may have not read anything but the first post and then your last one when I made my post.
     
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  14. Arachnid Addicted

    Arachnid Addicted Arachnobaron Active Member

    I just hit the "agreed" button but I had to come here and say that I agree with you 100%.

    I was about to write something too, then I saw your text and you said pretty much everything I wanted too. :)
     
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  15. Feral

    Feral Arachnobaron Active Member

    Just out of curiosity for myself (and sharing in case it interests anyone else), I went back to that website that was linked for the Nahautl pronunciation guide and looked to see what they said about the Cherokee "tl", which I know for sure how to pronounce. (Disclaimer, I'm not entirely fluent in Cherokee and I'm not an expert, but I def know and speak more than enough to pronounce words.) What it said for Cherokee "tl" and "dl" was completely accurate, and once I had a point of reference I understood what they meant by the breathy "l". And the one breathy-er Cherokee variant was described exactly the same as it was for the Nahautl "tl".
    So my dim little lightbulb finally went off, AHA! I got it now, eureka! lol
    (Here is their Cherokee pronunciation guide so you can see that the two descriptions for "tl" are essentially exactly the same: http://www.native-languages.org/cherokee_guide.htm)
    And so since I already knew how to pronounce those the Cherokee "tl" and "dl" variants and it's saying that breathy Cherokee variant is the same as the Nahautl "tl", and after having listened to those forvo clips of native speakers to confirm those pronunciations, I now feel pretty confident that what I said in posts #44 and #46 are as close to decisive as is possible without confirming with a actual native Nahautl speaker.

    Of course I'm interested in everyone's thoughts no matter what language(s) they speak, but definitely do chime in if you're a Nahautl speaker to whatever degree or know anyone who is, or if you speak any American indigenous languages at least somewhat, or if you know anyone who does, or if you have training in linguistics, or if you have the "tl" or "dl" combination in your own language, or anything. I'm interested to hear more thoughts.

    I also looked up in some info on Nahautl (that's me, fivever curious), I wanted to see how many people currently speak it. From what I saw, including all the dialects, there are about 1.5 million speakers, but I don't know if that's fluent speakers or all speakers. But either way, that's great! Even though some dialects have already gone extinct, which is always tragic, that's still a looooot more speakers than Cherokee has, for example, and Cherokee is the most common one in the US. So that's awesome. Maybe that increases our odds of finding a native speaker to say it out loud for all of us. :D

    [edit- I just made two 2-second video clips of pronouncing Tliltocatl with both the the harder and softer ""tl" variants, but... then I realized I still don't know how it is accented or where the stresses and inflections go! :oops: lol And if it's anything like other American native languages, it's very tonal. So on one hand it's gotta be better than some of the other pronunciations out there, but on the other hand it's not garaunteed correct. So I'm torn. *sad trombone*]
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  16. The Seraph

    The Seraph Arachnolord

    USA
    Interesting. Also, just realized there are more Nahuatl speakers than there are Native speakers in the USA. Over three times as many indigenous speakers and over five times the amount of Diné speakers, the most widely Native language here.
     
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  17. Feral

    Feral Arachnobaron Active Member

    Is Diné the most common? Then that would be my mistake, I'm sorry! I thought Cherokee was, thank you for correcting me, @The Seraph! Good to know! And I think our most recent count was only about 2,000 [edit-correction: about 2,500 fluent and thousands more broken speakers, according to the Cherokee Nation website] totally fluent speakers. But many more broken Cherokee speakers, to whatever degree! lol I'm glad to hear that Diné is doing well, that's wonderful!
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  18. The Seraph

    The Seraph Arachnolord

    USA
    Wow, I was not aware there are so few Cherokee speakers. There are 170,000 Navajo who speak Diné at home, but they are in some danger due to how often they have to speak English. There are many revitalization efforts though. Agreed with the sentiment that it is not gone though! Hopefully it can take after Quechua with its roughly 8 million speakers.
     
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  19. Rigor Mortis

    Rigor Mortis Arachnoknight Active Member

    Wow, this is something. I love taxonomy so this is pretty neat! It'll take some getting used to but it's great that things are getting clarified scientifically.
     
  20. Patherophis

    Patherophis Arachnobaron Active Member

    Primary because of genetics, we knew that albiceps belongs to "red legs" since Turner's paper.

    I think that growt rate is also a good clue here :D

    Scientific names and their parts originating from Latin and Greek are following Latin prononciation. For names and their parts coming from different languages, both latin and original prononciations are acceptable, with original one being prefered when known.
     
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