so apparently im weird!

[The Snark]

Haha, I find the snoring helps me go to sleep. But I can't sleep in silence, always need white noise... fans or cricket soundtracks, etc. I grew up in a very noisy house with everyone on different sleeping schedules, so it was the only way to drown out disturbances. Now sleeping in silence is unsettling for me. When my pug curls up to me and starts snoring, I start yawning myself. Must be a reverse Pavlov type of situation.

Have we got the perfect dog for you!! A lady down the road got an English Bulldog because it was very expensive and quite the thing for the effete (2nd definition) Thai elite to own. She did no research. We took the dog home and babysat her for 3 days. She's still puppyish though full grown. Let's see. She leaves enough of a trail of slobber to make walking on the slick ceramic tile floor hazardous. Her breath could knock a buzzard off a poopwagon, she farts silently about once a minute and really lets one rip that rattles the windows every 10 minutes or so, snores are reminiscent of the cattle lowing across the river, smells like a 4th degree Bangkok canal, and either gets to sleep with us on our bed or whines and piddles downstairs all night.

I blasted right through an orb web this morning. Arriving at my coffee stop a half hour later the clerk casually points at my shirt and says 'spider'. A beautiful young lady Nephila, quite content to sit on my chest and watch the world go by had come along for the ride. I then went to my fav restaurant and repeat, the couple running the place point out I'm wearing a spider. Then I rode 6 km up into the hills and cajoled her into a select bush, thanking her for the company. Is this really weird? I mean, a Neph willing to go on a 15 km ride with you is a rather special compliment in my book. How often does a gorgeous young lady stranger come up and hug you for a half hour?

 

[viper69]

I have to admit, of the true spiders that I can think of off the top my head. Jumpers are my favorite, and in many ways top the Ts that I own. There's nothing more cool to me than a little jumper that looks at you and responds to you through its visual system. On top of that, while I enjoy watching my Ts hunt when they sense vibration, it's impressive to watch a jumping spider hunt like a cat does, stalking, crouching and leaping/pouncing on its prey.

W/that said, here's the coolest video I have seen which has the largest species of jumper, this WOULD be cool to observe at home or in the wild http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oRRBPdM6Wc

 

[The Snark]

Jumpers. What is really fun and fascinating is wiggling your finger near the surface it is on. Once you have it's attention try to move your finger to directly behind it without it turning and watching. It's easier to pick up a blob of mercury with a pair of pliers. There's no fooling a jumper and that 360 degree eyesight.

 

[viper69]

Jumpers. What is really fun and fascinating is wiggling your finger near the surface it is on. Once you have it's attention try to move your finger to directly behind it without it turning and watching. It's easier to pick up a blob of mercury with a pair of pliers. There's no fooling a jumper and that 360 degree eyesight.

Sort of like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyG7U9PIlyM

Actually, their vision isn't quite as spectacular in full 360 if that is what you meant? if I'm understanding you correctly? W/out their two, large primary eyes, while they can still orient their bodies in proximity to a prey item, they do not attack the prey item, their acuity drops dramatically. They need those 2 primary eyes.

What is a rather cool adaptation is that they scan their surrounding like humans, but differently. Unlike humans and other animals that have eyes which move in the skull, clearly jumpers don't have that, their adaptation allows them to move their retinas around within the eye!

 

[The Snark]

Sort of like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyG7U9PIlyM

Actually, their vision isn't quite as spectacular in full 360 if that is what you meant? if I'm understanding you correctly? W/out their two, large primary eyes, while they can still orient their bodies in proximity to a prey item, they do not attack the prey item, their acuity drops dramatically. They need those 2 primary eyes.

What is a rather cool adaptation is that they scan their surrounding like humans, but differently. Unlike humans and other animals that have eyes which move in the skull, clearly jumpers don't have that, their adaptation allows them to move their retinas around within the eye!

Move the retina?? Got some links on that? I'd really like to read up on it.

 

[viper69]

Move the retina?? Got some links on that? I'd really like to read up on it.

You BET I do! I have a video AND another link

Video> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GL09bXxbi4

Start at around 29:45 time pt. But the entire program is GREAT (I've never seen wolf spiders' eyes glow in the dark like cats!). I even emailed one of the scientists, nice guy!


Text/diagram> http://tolweb.org/accessory/Jumping_Spider_Vision?acc_id=1946

 

[Lucidd]

Have we got the perfect dog for you!! A lady down the road got an English Bulldog because it was very expensive and quite the thing for the effete (2nd definition) Thai elite to own. She did no research. We took the dog home and babysat her for 3 days. She's still puppyish though full grown. Let's see. She leaves enough of a trail of slobber to make walking on the slick ceramic tile floor hazardous. Her breath could knock a buzzard off a poopwagon, she farts silently about once a minute and really lets one rip that rattles the windows every 10 minutes or so, snores are reminiscent of the cattle lowing across the river, smells like a 4th degree Bangkok canal, and either gets to sleep with us on our bed or whines and piddles downstairs all night.

I blasted right through an orb web this morning. Arriving at my coffee stop a half hour later the clerk casually points at my shirt and says 'spider'. A beautiful young lady Nephila, quite content to sit on my chest and watch the world go by had come along for the ride. I then went to my fav restaurant and repeat, the couple running the place point out I'm wearing a spider. Then I rode 6 km up into the hills and cajoled her into a select bush, thanking her for the company. Is this really weird? I mean, a Neph willing to go on a 15 km ride with you is a rather special compliment in my book. How often does a gorgeous young lady stranger come up and hug you for a half hour?

Haha, I love English Bulldogs but never considered the larger size contributing to more gas, drool and whatnot. My pug doesn't drool but he hangs his tongue out of his mouth until it is dry and crusty looking. He is gassy and often "dutch ovens" me, because he likes to slip under the covers when I am sleeping. I love all the brachycephalic dogs. sound effects included!

It's pretty fascinating you have these spiders keeping you company during your rides, and long after! I took a jumper for a walk on a nice day and she spent 5 minutes gazing up at the sky, then circling, taking in the rest of her surroundings. She must have then gotten bored of the stimulus or confused or something, because she hid in my sleeve for the rest of the walk. So I decided not to try that with her again.

 

[The Snark]

Wow

That is the best spider video I've ever seen. And that moving retina, chalk another one up for jumpers. I was aware that the other eyes are just sophisticated motion sensors and that they don't report to the same part of the brain.

I've seen a lot of eye shine from lycosids. The thing is the reflection, that I've seen anyway, is pretty directional. Best way to see it is get down on your hands and knees. Then scan with a blue-white LED light from side to side. The reflection can be seen pretty easily up to 3 or even 4 feet away. What is odd is sparassids don't have the eye shine. I've seen a couple that reflect but very dimly. Different focal distance inside the eye I suppose.

Spiders going on walks. That was the first trip with a Nephila. They have some unusual traits. Unagitated then tend to freeze and assess things when outside their web. Then when they move the motion is often very slow and methodical. I suspect their web is a very important and integral part of their sensory ability. The one today, suddenly finding itself on a cotton surface and head upper most (Nephs go to great lengths to keep in the head down position) was probably like a human suddenly finding itself on a planet with significantly different gravity and it being extremely foggy producing sensory deprivation. IE, let's just sit this out and see if things improve.

Nice coincidence. Went out in the garden just now and there was a pair of blueish white reflections. I moved and they turned off. Searching that area and there was a lyco trundling off about it's business. Leaving our yard unkempt, loaded with leaf litter, and in a tropical forest area, I'd venture a very rough guess we have maybe a few hundred thousand more insects per square meter than the average urban areas in the US. That equates as a treasure trove for spiders and spider watchers. But it has it's drawbacks. Place your hand or bare foot on the ground and wait. After about 30 seconds the itching will start and spread on up to your elbow or knee. Mites and other micros just checking things out.

 

[jecraque]

Eyeshine seems to be due to the presence/shape of the tapetum lucidum in spider eyes--most don't have a tapetum in their AMEs but do in the other eyes, so that might be where the dim reflections you've seen are coming from in Sparassids. I think they have the same shape as Lycosid tapeta, so I would expect they'd reflect back in a similar way. I don't have any common huntsmen around, so I can't verify. On occasion you can tell from the color whether you're looking at a pisaurid or lycosid, even, but it takes some practice. Not long ago, I guessed with some certainty that I had found a wolf spider a few feet away and was surprised to find a big female Xysticus staring back at me. Recently I've gotten better equipment and am often distracted by eyeshine from 20ft away--only to find the tiniest of tiny wolf spiders. Pretty crazy how much of a difference a good headlamp makes.

There was a recent paper out on eyeshine & the tapetum in lycosids--it may be behind a paywall but I'll leave the cite here for those with access to the JoA:
Benson, K & RB Suter. 2013. Reflections on the tapetum lucidum and eyeshine in lycosoid spiders. Journal of Arachnology 41:43–52.

 

[JayDangerVL]

You BET I do! I have a video AND another link

Video> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GL09bXxbi4

Start at around 29:45 time pt. But the entire program is GREAT (I've never seen wolf spiders' eyes glow in the dark like cats!). I even emailed one of the scientists, nice guy!


Text/diagram> http://tolweb.org/accessory/Jumping_Spider_Vision?acc_id=1946

Geez, you're just full of fun youtube links, aren't you! I should be entertained for a while! XD

 

[The Snark]

Eyeshine

Upon reflection, it seems likely that all spider eyes would have the reflection. What would be handy is to borrow spectrum analysis from the astrofizzies folks. It seems conceivable, even quite plausible that we could end up IDing spiders from many feet away with perfect accuracy. As with any astronomical object, each retina would have it's own unique signature.
Right now the next logical step is determining what wavelength would lend itself best to the analysis. And of course, someone cranking out a workable spectrophotometer in their garage that doesn't cost several million dollars.

---------- Post added 11-23-2013 at 07:31 AM ----------

You BET I do! I have a video AND another link

Video> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GL09bXxbi4

Start at around 29:45 time pt. But the entire program is GREAT (I've never seen wolf spiders' eyes glow in the dark like cats!). I even emailed one of the scientists, nice guy!


Text/diagram> http://tolweb.org/accessory/Jumping_Spider_Vision?acc_id=1946

I've watched that video and reread that article about 10 times now. What is absolutely phenomenal ... I'm babbling. Okay, the evolution of astronomy and object acquisition and imaging has taken some quantum leaps quite recently. Back in the 1930's they still had people sitting in the telescopes. Selective imaging required repositioning the entire scope. Only recently have they refined imaging where they can reposition the sensors instead of the entire scope, and that field is still in it's infancy. Yet here we have the salticid doing exactly that, obviously with an extreme degree of accuracy and effectiveness.

Suggested reading: The evolution of the Mount Palomar observatory and the development of primitive spectrum photography, From all night observations involving the precise motion of many tons of equipment to counting individual photons.

 

[viper69]

That is the best spider video I've ever seen. And that moving retina, chalk another one up for jumpers. I was aware that the other eyes are just sophisticated motion sensors and that they don't report to the same part of the brain.

I thought you'd like those resources. The reflection is due to the tapetum lucidum, not all spiders have this (ie jumpers don't) It sits behind the retina and reflects back photons onto the retina, nature's version of night vision goggles. Sharks (all I don't know) have it as well, actually many species animals. As far as making some instrument to ID eyes based on their reflection is likely not feasible, nor that useful as several species have this tissue that reflects back all photons basically. I understand where you are coming from, but this isn't like IDing planetary objects based on light.

In essence, it was this tissue that inspired man to make night time reflectors.

Eyeshine seems to be due to the presence/shape of the tapetum lucidum in spider eyes--most don't have a tapetum in their AMEs but do in the other eyes, so that might be where the dim reflections you've seen are coming from in Sparassids. I think they have the same shape as Lycosid tapeta, so I would expect they'd reflect back in a similar way. I don't have any common huntsmen around, so I can't verify. On occasion you can tell from the color whether you're looking at a pisaurid or lycosid, even, but it takes some practice. Not long ago, I guessed with some certainty that I had found a wolf spider a few feet away and was surprised to find a big female Xysticus staring back at me. Recently I've gotten better equipment and am often distracted by eyeshine from 20ft away--only to find the tiniest of tiny wolf spiders. Pretty crazy how much of a difference a good headlamp makes.

Jec you are right about the eyeshine. What equipment do you use that allows you to see wolf spider eyes at night? I guess a powerful flashlight??

---------- Post added 11-22-2013 at 07:20 PM ----------

Geez, you're just full of fun youtube links, aren't you! I should be entertained for a while! XD

haha..yeah, that's not even a fraction of what I have. I have TONS, I know a bit about research heheh. I'm glad you like them!

 

[The Snark]

I thought you'd like those resources. The reflection is due to the tapetum lucidum, not all spiders have this (ie jumpers don't) It sits behind the retina and reflects back photons onto the retina, nature's version of night vision goggles. Sharks (all I don't know) have it as well, actually many species animals. As far as making some instrument to ID eyes based on their reflection is likely not feasible, nor that useful as several species have this tissue that reflects back all photons basically. I understand where you are coming from, but this isn't like IDing planetary objects based on light.

We haven't been using simple visible light to ID astronomical objects for quite some time. Let's look at the overall picture. Retinal scanners can uniquely identify every person on the planet with a healthy eyeball, for a start. In turn those scanners are still extremely primitive and in their infancy compared to the scanning techniques presently used on astronomical objects. They also are using a VERY narrow spectrum infrared light source. In turn, infrared detection and imaging is also in it's infancy and newer, more capable and more efficient detectors are constantly coming about. Now take into account the various wavelengths being used in astronomy. This in turn is being expanded on an almost daily basis. Then on top of all else, the new developments in computer technology are just now enabling us to make fantastically complex composite wavelength analysis.

To summarize, not only will they be able to ID different spiders at a distance, the technology is on the horizon to image things like a human body and detect individual cancer cells using complimentary and differential spectrum analysis. Just look at some of the recent advances in the spectrum acquisition and analysis field. 25 years ago it took 5 minutes to acquire a reasonably clear infrared image. The detectors today can acquire several hundred much better images today in less than a second. When the 200 inch Palomar telescope was built in the 1930's they were still using light visible to the human eye. Today much smaller scopes than that are detecting and analyzing billions of times more data in a few hours than the Palomar scope acquired in several years of operation. One major predecessor to the LHC at Cern was deemed unfeasible and unrealistic only 20 years ago and the LHC itself was considered impossible less than 40 years ago.

Essentially, the field is limitless and growing exponentially almost every day. So cast your mind forward say, 15 years. A pulsed gamma or x-ray light source and a sensor array that presently costs 10 million dollars that you will be able to buy in most camera stores: "Oh yes. That's subject #223. As you can see from the analysis it's about 7 months old, a mature male and fed within the last 12 hours.

 

[klawfran3]

We haven't been using visible light to ID astronomical objects for quite some time. Let's look at the overall picture. Retinal scanners can uniquely identify every person on the planet with a healthy eyeball, for a start. In turn those scanners are still extremely primitive and in their infancy compared to the scanning techniques presently used on astronomical objects. They also are using a VERY narrow spectrum infrared light source. In turn, infrared detection and imaging is also in it's infancy and newer, more capable and more efficient detectors are constantly coming about. Now take into account the various wavelengths being used in astronomy. This in turn is being expanded on an almost daily basis. Then on top of all else, the new developments in computer technology and just now enabling us to make composite wavelength analysis.

At the risk of sounding stupid, aren't those scanners identifying the individual patterns of our veins on our retina, and not the infrared light bouncing off them? I mean, I get what you're going at Snark, but it doesn't sound feasible or practical to identify a spider from a few feet away, based on it's light patterns reflecting from its' eye, when all we have to do is walk up to it and look at it. just my two cents.

 

[The Snark]

Please excuse me if I seem to be talking down to you or anything like that crud. They analyze the patterns, yes. To be precise, the patterns of the photons emitted or bounced off the retina to the receptors/sensors/imagers. Infrared is sent in and bounces or is sensed from the energy in the objective, and enters a sensor array. The only difference between that and astronomical observations is the light can be sourced. That lends itself to far far greater precision in the analysis. Among other myriads of 'alternating or modifying' the light source uses is the ability to create 3 dimensional images. When a computer generates a three dimensional image it is simply synthesizing the stereoscopic light sources and reflections.

All data gathered from imaging through sensors, be it retinal imaging, a CAT scan, an MRI, a blast of x-rays from a black hole, or an ultra exotic collision in the LHC, uses the same basic spectrum analysis. How the data is extrapolated and used depends on what is desired out of it. Soft tissue images, transient bends and shifts in energy, details of a cervical fracture, the existence of the Higgs Boson or the unique identification of a human from retinal patterns.

Again, my apologies. I am deliberately dumbing down, skirting and avoiding bringing in quantum mechanics, algorithms, and a LOT of other technicals. If you are desperately curious, search for 'the quantisation of light'. Be forewarned, that path leads to the scientific heart of darkness with little mathematical pobbles like E=MC2 popping up.

I note that there is an excellent laypersons wiki page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_quantum_mechanics that you might be interested in perusing.

 

[klawfran3]

Please excuse me if I seem to be talking down to you or anything like that crud. They analyze the patterns, yes. To be precise, the patterns of the photons emitted or bounced off the retina to the receptors/sensors/imagers. Infrared is sent in and bounces or is sensed from the energy in the objective, and enters a sensor array. The only difference between that and astronomical observations is the light can be sourced. That lends itself to far far greater precision in the analysis. Among other myriads of 'alternating or modifying' the light source uses is the ability to create 3 dimensional images. When a computer generates a three dimensional image it is simply synthesizing the stereoscopic light sources and reflections.

All data gathered from imaging through sensors, be it retinal imaging, a CAT scan, an MRI, a blast of x-rays from a black hole, or an ultra exotic collision in the LHC, uses the same basic spectrum analysis. How the data is extrapolated and used depends on what is desired out of it. Soft tissue images, transient bends and shifts in energy, details of a cervical fracture, the existence of the Higgs Boson or the unique identification of a human from retinal patterns.

Again, my apologies. I am deliberately dumbing down, skirting and avoiding bringing in quantum mechanics, algorithms, and a LOT of other technicals. If you are desperately curious, search for 'the quantisation of light'. Be forewarned, that path leads to the scientific heart of darkness with little mathematical pobbles like E=MC2 popping up.

I note that there is an excellent laypersons wiki page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_quantum_mechanics that you might be interested in perusing.

I don't think you were talking down to me at all. it was genuinely helpful and interesting to have it clarified. thanks.

but now into another question: how would this be beneficial in the field? I assume these, now a days, are very expensive, big machines, which would be a PITA to lug around a hillside or in a forest. And how far would heir range be too? They wouldn't be very practical to ID a spider from about five feet away, when all you have to do is walk up to it carefully, what with it's huge size and high price. I assume that in the future (not near but not too far) we would have cheap handheld ones that could work in a range of a good thirty or so feet?

 

[The Snark]

If the truth be told, the fore-bearers of those devices are in common use today. The scanner at the checkout stand at your convenience store. Do a search for an overloaded circuit breaker in a panel of 200 identical breakers in a few seconds. The blood oximeter. Bio-medical equipment labs working overtime as I write this to develop faster and more accurate arterial blood gas analyzers, shooting for non invasive ones. 20 years ago write the Kodak company and tell them their cameras and film are about to become obsolete. Or the best example, you reading this text. Sourced light, a sensor array in your eyeball, and a computer the data transmission line sends the info to: your brain and the optic nerve respectively. Use a flashlight on a page of printed text in a dark room, same thing.
It will of course depend upon the demand for the devices and that will depend upon how versatile they are for multiple applications. I suspect a device that plugs into a laptop computer will be the first on the scene. The computer programs are already in use in the form of chromatography and similar mass analysis operations. Maybe your IPod Mark XXIV will come with various light source and spectrum sensors as options.
(Apologies for hijacking this thread somewhat)

 

[jecraque]

What equipment do you use that allows you to see wolf spider eyes at night? I guess a powerful flashlight??

Yeah, I suppose a flashlight would do. Headlamp is preferable since it leaves your hands free and keeps the light about eye level, which helps with the eyeshine-spotting. I've had a lot of cheaper ones over the years, but a decent $40-50 headlamp will do wonders in terms of revealing the world of nighttime entomology.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if there were a way to ID based on reflected spectra and intensity, at least in theory. If I can go out at night and tell you based on experience that the reflectance of most moths is reddish orange, pisaurids is green, lycosids is blue, there's a way of quantifying that, whether it would be practical or not, and whether it would apply to all tapetum-owning species or not (interestingly, some arctic mammals change reflectance color at different times of the year, based on the change in shape of the tapetum due to differential pressure on the eyes). ...and visual acuity seems inversely related to reflectance in a number of different taxa, so differences in acuity would produce measurable differences in reflectance intensity.

I can also tell you based on experience that spider science is poorly funded and inadequately staffed, so things being possible and coming into existence are worlds apart. I have been immensely impressed by the ingenuity of much of the machinery designed to test various parameters of webbing, for example, but as far as I know no one's put that much effort into eyeshine with the possible exception of the one lycosid paper I mentioned.

 

[The Snark]

There is of course the tried and true method of spider ID. A magnified image through a high powered sensor of the eyes, shape and pattern. Just taking normal IDing to the next level really. Just wait. Affordable quality digital imaging is coming on incredibly fast. Our common 16 MB pixel arrays were wet dreams of photographers 10 years ago. In another 5 year, terrabyte arrays and microsecond strobed acquisition?

Also, interpretive imagery is coming on very fast. We've all seen those spectacular color images of distant nebula. Cameras today still use the visible light spectrum which is quite weak energy wise. In comparison, a 2 watt infrared light is enough to light an entire room enough to read by if your eyeball was equally oriented to that spectrum. Now imagine very high energy light sources as a strobed x-ray and appropriate sensors. Composite photographs to the molecular level become quite possible in the future.

 

[viper69]

Composite photographs to the molecular level become quite possible in the future.

What do you mean by this, be more specific. What specifically would be imaged?