snake guru's please help....

jmarcian@mix.wv

Arachnopeon
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
11
Hi all,
My friend is about to purchase a python, hopefully a jungle carpet python. I am well versed and hold a fair amount of knowledge in keeping tarantulas, but not reptiles.
I have read and begun to understand the basic needs of these snakes in terms of temp, lighting etc. However, i need some insight as to what the enclosure should, or could entail.
From my personal preference, i enjoy things to be as natural appearing as possible. For example, when i look at a snake laying on astro-turf, with a (plastic) rock dish, it kind of upsets me. (no offense....:}) . My first question is can these snakes be kept on a bed of peatmoss, sphagnum moss, leaf litter mixture? As i stated, i am experienced in tarantula keeping and i know the ins-and-outs of sanitizing this mixture.
My basic plan is to lay down a gravel layer for drainage, then a thicker layer of this peat mixture. on top of that, i was going to cover the peat layer with whole/crumbled leafs to give it that "forest floor" appearance. Then, using some wood that i have, i was going to design some type of retreat for the snake, perhaps big enough for it to coil and lay in.
I was reading that most snakes need a "soaking" spot. So for this i was going to use a medium sized tupperware or bowl, and glue various rocks to the surface. then perhaps aerate the water. Or maybe i can even design some type of section at the very end which would solely be water, a partition so to speak.

Is this appropriate, anything you would do to change it? any help is appreciated!

thanks
jared
 

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
May 1, 2004
Messages
2,290
Hi all,
My friend is about to purchase a python, hopefully a jungle carpet python. I am well versed and hold a fair amount of knowledge in keeping tarantulas, but not reptiles.
I have read and begun to understand the basic needs of these snakes in terms of temp, lighting etc. However, i need some insight as to what the enclosure should, or could entail.
From my personal preference, i enjoy things to be as natural appearing as possible. For example, when i look at a snake laying on astro-turf, with a (plastic) rock dish, it kind of upsets me. (no offense....:}) . My first question is can these snakes be kept on a bed of peatmoss, sphagnum moss, leaf litter mixture? As i stated, i am experienced in tarantula keeping and i know the ins-and-outs of sanitizing this mixture.
My basic plan is to lay down a gravel layer for drainage, then a thicker layer of this peat mixture. on top of that, i was going to cover the peat layer with whole/crumbled leafs to give it that "forest floor" appearance. Then, using some wood that i have, i was going to design some type of retreat for the snake, perhaps big enough for it to coil and lay in.
I was reading that most snakes need a "soaking" spot. So for this i was going to use a medium sized tupperware or bowl, and glue various rocks to the surface. then perhaps aerate the water. Or maybe i can even design some type of section at the very end which would solely be water, a partition so to speak.

Is this appropriate, anything you would do to change it? any help is appreciated!

thanks
jared
Nope, not a good choice of substrate for a large snake at all! You will want to use something you can keep fairly dry and clean up and replace easily with these snakes. A grown Carpet Python poops like a big DOG, and excessive moisture in their substrate can cause all sorts of problems. I use newspapers with my big snakes-easy to get, easy to clean up, easy to replace. Just wad up the paper around the mountainous pile, put it in a trash bag, and replace. For soaking/drinking I use a a plastic tub that is designed for a dish tub, to fit in a sink, or one of those plastic tubs they give you in the hospital if you have to stay in a room(well, they don't GIVE you the tub...you pay dearly for that thing, so might as well take it home and use it). Again, the simpler and easier to clean, the better. A permanent water container is a prime place for bacteria that can kill your snake to get established. These snakes get BIG, and unless you plan to devote nearly 24/7 to cage maintainance and cleaning, you will want to keep it as simple as possible. The snake could care less about how nice it looks to other people. My JCP has a 75-gallon tank, with a tub on one end, newspaper substrate, a 100-watt heat lamp on top and an undertank heater on the hot end. It might not be fancy, but it is easy to clean and serves its purpose. I cannot even fathom trying to keep a large constrictor in the type of enclosure you described; keeping it clean would practically be a full-time job in and of itself!

pitbulllady
 

Jmugleston

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
1,578
Though not common (especially in the states) it is possible to keep snakes in natural set-ups. As mentioned in the previous post, it will be more labor intensive in terms of upkeep. Newspaper is easy. When soiled remove it and put new paper in. That said, I hate the look of it. Only my retics and quarantine animals are kept on paper. The retics are on it only because a 150+ lb snake makes a huge mess and I can't afford to put new mulch in there each week. Natural set ups will need to be larger and set up properly though. I wouldn't use a glass aquarium since the ventilation is only on the top. The stagnant air is just asking for issues. If you build a cage or have one built for you, then it is possible to have vents placed on either side to allow for cross ventilation. That will aid in resolving much of the issues with the stagnant air. You could even go so far as to put a small computer fan on the outside to help move the air. For a jungle carpet python I'd have a drainage layer covered with a bit of mesh to keep the levels separate. Then put on a layer of cocofiber and dead leaves. You can even try to get some grasses or mosses to grow in there. Plants that can work well are ficus (you can braid the trunks together and get a thicker bushier plant that the snake can climb on. Pothos vine or creeping fig work well for decorations as well. Draecena (spelling?) are another that can be grown in a way to accommodate the snakes. Natural viviariums are quite rewarding, but are many times more difficult to care for than the reptile inhabitants. In my opinion they are well worth the time, money, and effort. The sterile enclosures are economical, but seeing the snakes in a plant instead of wrapped around a jungle gym of PVC is many times better for me. That said, both methods are fine and the snakes will grow and reproduce in either. I do agree a permanent water dish is a bad idea. It is best that you can take it out and disinfect it. You can easily construct a wood or rock shroud for the dish so that when you look in you don't see a bright blue dog dish in your planted terrarium. If you're up for the challenge, natural vivariums are well worth the trouble. If you're not ready to properly set up the cage, keep a good eye out for problems, and be ready to revamp it as the snake trashed your hard work, then the sterile cages are maybe a better option.
 

Bengal21

Arachnopeon
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
42
While Live plants can be cool, for the most part, with a few exceptions, they are pretty unfeasible with larger snakes. The snakes will mash the plants just by their natural movement around the cage...at least my one experience with them it did. I put some Pothos in with my Suriname Redtail. Plants looked good for 3 or 4 days. After a week, I had a bunch of mashed broken plants, laying in soil that also made it a PITA to clean the cage. Newspaper is your friend. Especially with large constrictors.
JCP's are also somewhat arboreal. They will spend a lot of time up on a perch, if a proper one is provided. I always encourage people to feed in a separate enclosure other than the cage, but if you do choose to feed in the cage, mulch or other loose types of substrate run the risk of accidental consumption and compaction. I don't feed in the cage, but if I did, newspaper is a must.
 

Dyn

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
364
"I always encourage people to feed in a separate enclosure other than the cage"

I am VERY against that. There is no reason to do it and it would be EXTREMELY difficult to do so with a large constrictor
 

kevin91172

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Messages
407
Nope, not a good choice of substrate for a large snake at all! You will want to use something you can keep fairly dry and clean up and replace easily with these snakes. A grown Carpet Python poops like a big DOG, and excessive moisture in their substrate can cause all sorts of problems. I use newspapers with my big snakes-easy to get, easy to clean up, easy to replace. Just wad up the paper around the mountainous pile, put it in a trash bag, and replace. For soaking/drinking I use a a plastic tub that is designed for a dish tub, to fit in a sink, or one of those plastic tubs they give you in the hospital if you have to stay in a room(well, they don't GIVE you the tub...you pay dearly for that thing, so might as well take it home and use it). Again, the simpler and easier to clean, the better. A permanent water container is a prime place for bacteria that can kill your snake to get established. These snakes get BIG, and unless you plan to devote nearly 24/7 to cage maintainance and cleaning, you will want to keep it as simple as possible. The snake could care less about how nice it looks to other people. My JCP has a 75-gallon tank, with a tub on one end, newspaper substrate, a 100-watt heat lamp on top and an undertank heater on the hot end. It might not be fancy, but it is easy to clean and serves its purpose. I cannot even fathom trying to keep a large constrictor in the type of enclosure you described; keeping it clean would practically be a full-time job in and of itself!

pitbulllady
Yep! what she said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
 

Bengal21

Arachnopeon
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
42
"I always encourage people to feed in a separate enclosure other than the cage"

I am VERY against that. There is no reason to do it and it would be EXTREMELY difficult to do so with a large constrictor
As a keeper of large constrictors for 17 years and the current owner of 3, I am for it. For one snakes will learn from repitition and association. You don't want them associating objects entering their cage as food. A separate container reinforces when its "time to eat" vs "I'm being picked up". It also makes ingestion of substrate impossible a well as providing a good opportunity to clean the cage and change water. My boas know the difference and I don't worry about being mistaken for a food item. 9 out of 10 bites are from being confused as food.
I assure you it isn't "extremely difficult" I do it it several times a month and have for years with my larger boas. If we're talking about the giants ie; anaconda, burmese, rock pythons, retics, etc., handling alone is a dangerous no no. that goes w/o saying. But the OP was talking about a jungle carpet python so that scenario doesn't really apply here.
 

Dyn

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
364
Hook training is a way better option than moving around a snake that just ate. There is no need to move one around at all being a ball python or a retic.
 

Bengal21

Arachnopeon
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
42
Hook training is a way better option than moving around a snake that just ate. There is no need to move one around at all being a ball python or a retic.
Putting a snake that just ate back in it's enclosure isn't going to hurt it. Sure, excessive handling can cause problems but I've never had a snake regurge after feeding. I put them in a giant rubbermaid tote, drop the prey item in, come back in an hour or two, pick the animal up and put it back in its enclosure. There is no need for "hook training", whatever that is. I don't see how it's a "way better option" if I can just pick it up by hand and gently set it back in it's enclosure w/o incident. The snake doesn't really care if you are moving it with a hook or your hand. I prefer to teach my snakes to differentiate between their owner and a prey item so it's safe to handle them. I'd also like to see you "hook training" an adult retic.:? Let me know how that works out for ya.
 

Dyn

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
364
All responsible retic owners hook train their snakes. That is how they know they arent feeding. When you introduce the hook and rub them with it they know they are not going to eat there for the feeding response is done.

I'd like to see you try dealing with an adult retic at feeding time trying to move him out of and back into his cage.
 

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
May 1, 2004
Messages
2,290
All responsible retic owners hook train their snakes. That is how they know they arent feeding. When you introduce the hook and rub them with it they know they are not going to eat there for the feeding response is done.

I'd like to see you try dealing with an adult retic at feeding time trying to move him out of and back into his cage.
Yeah, I'd kinda like to see that myself. I DO use this method with some of my Boas, not all; it depends on their individual feeding responses. Even the most-ardent feeders among Boas still pale in comparison to most Pythons, even Balls. My Ball Python goes postal when he smells food anywhere in the room, and it's a guarantee that you WILL be bitten if you try to mess with him at all until he's got his belly good and full! He's a big boy, and packs a real punch when he lunges, too. I cannot even imagine trying to remove any of my large Retics I used to own from their cages when they thought they were being fed, or my Olives or Burms that I had, and don't even get me started on Papuans when it comes to feeding! My JCP gets fed right in his cage, and like you said, I use either a hook or even a towel or large snake bag to let the snake know I'm going to pick him up, and he, like my Boas, is conditioned to associate that with being picked up and handled. Pythons of most species tend to be territorial about their cages or enclosures, anyway, hungry or not, so it's a good idea to "test the waters" before handling them in their cages. My Ball Python will usually bite you in his cage, regardless, and huff and hiss like a Puff Adder until you hook him. Once he's picked up, he's fine, a typical mellow Ball Python. Back in his cage, he is like a junkyard dog in its fence!

pitbulllady
 

Bengal21

Arachnopeon
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
42
All responsible retic owners hook train their snakes. That is how they know they arent feeding. When you introduce the hook and rub them with it they know they are not going to eat there for the feeding response is done.

I'd like to see you try dealing with an adult retic at feeding time trying to move him out of and back into his cage.
But as I said in a previous post, we're not talking about a Retic here are we? I even listed retics as an exception in my previous post, so what's your point? The OP is talking about a JCP, not a retic.
 

Dyn

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
364
"I'd also like to see you "hook training" an adult retic."

Oh I'm sorry I didnt realize I had brought up the retic part since we "werent talking about them"

Regardless it applys to all snakes. It's alot easier to deal with the snakes after hook training them. There are no reason to not hook train any snake over 5 foot or any smaller. It's alot safer way to handle them rather than just reaching in regardless of how "nice" they are or how well you think you might have trained them to differentiate you from prey.
 

Jmugleston

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
1,578
Hmmm. It seems that both sides are getting at the same result through different means. The end result is you want a snake that does not associate the opening door with food. A simple issue with classical conditioning. One side has resorted to removing the snakes so that the door opening never directly results in food. The other prefers to offer a second stimuli (touching with the hook) in order to break the pattern. End result, the door opening never is followed immediately with food. Seems like either would work with many species. Though some obvious exceptions have been mentioned depending on the snake's size or temperament. So since both work, neither are harmful for the snake, and those of us that own exceptions recognize that one method is more difficult, I don't see what the debate is about. That said, why has this thread derailed in order to argue methods for avoiding conditioned responses to a door opening? Seems like it is best to use whichever you prefer or whichever you feel more comfortable with. I use both depending on the snake, my mood, or whether I need to clean a cage. I thought the original post was asking about planted vivaria for snakes. :)
 

Bengal21

Arachnopeon
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
42
You were just saying in another thread you get bit by enough snakes...I don't. I've been bit before, but not in several years by my own snakes. If your method works so well, why do you "get bit enough"?
You win man. Hook train all your snakes in their enclosures and keep "getting bit enough"(your words, not mine) and I'll keep moving my snkaes and not getting bit. If we're going to discuss this issue further lets start another thread so we don't hijack this one any more than we already have.
 

Dyn

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
364
I was refering to babies in the petshop i was working at. And was mainly a joke. I havent been bitten by any of my snakes since they were babies or I just got them. Nice try though.
 
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