Serious question in terms of poisonous vs. venomous

lunarae

Arachnobaron
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Alright so honestly I'm sitting here wondering in terms of poisonous or venomous. Now we all know poisonous is when ingested, and venomous is injected. But then you have something like the spitting cobra....

Now the spitting cobra can spit its venom into the eyes of someone and it cause serious damage. It's not ingested, but it's not exactly injected either, not in the normal sense of a bite. Now because it CAN bite I know they are considered venomous, but in this case would they be considered both? Technically? Or is it still just venomous because regardless it's not ingested through the stomach?

Or a better question, with the spitting cobra, if you ingested the venom when it spit at you, would you get sick?
 

Chris LXXIX

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I'm not a venomous snakes (and snakes in general) pundit :pompous: at all, but if I'm not wrong if someone, for instance (crazy example) would drink, literally, the venom in a glass like a cocktail lol, well that would harm less (if any) like in the case of a bite. Anyway I'm clueless :kiss:
 

schmiggle

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I think that would still be considered venom, because it has an active delivery structure. This website says "inject or deliver venom":

http://insects.about.com/od/insects101/f/venomous-or-poisonous.htm

On a nearly unrelated but kind of fun note, turns out there are two venomous species of frog that inject poison through spikes in their lips:

http://www.wanderingherpetologist.com/worlds-venomous-amphibians/

By the way, even though that article says otherwise, Iberian ribbed newts are also venomous.
 

lunarae

Arachnobaron
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YEah I was thinking more on it. Venom in the eyes would be like venom in an open wound I think.
 

Chris LXXIX

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YEah I was thinking more on it. Venom in the eyes would be like venom in an open wound I think.
You know I always believed that as well, yet if I'm not wrong an old time user here, not even so much ago, said, while talking about P.transvaalicus, that wouldn't harm that much a "shoot" in the eyes from those, unlike the pure and simple sting.

Disclaimer: It's late here and I could be wrong or not remembering well, still... :-s
 

schmiggle

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You know I always believed that as well, yet if I'm not wrong an old time user here, not even so much ago, said, while talking about P.transvaalicus, that wouldn't harm that much a "shoot" in the eyes from those, unlike the pure and simple sting.
That is certainly possible. The thing with spitting cobras is that they have cytotoxic venom--it attacks cell membranes, which means it affects all cells. I'm not sure what would happen if it got on your skin, but everything else should be fair game. P. transvaalicus, however, has neurotoxic venom, which means it has to get into your bloodstream and get to your nerves somehow.

Edit: I suppose if it was placed directly on a nerve cell, kurtoxin probably wouldn't need the help of a bloodstream.
 

Najakeeper

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Same standard applies, if you drink the spitting cobra venom in a shot glass, you will be fine unless you have some digestive track wounds. Essentially, if you ingest it, you will still be fine. Almost all cobras have some sort of cytotoxic and/or myotoxic elements regardless if they can spray their venom or not.

There are poisonous snakes though. The rear-fanged Rhabdophis genus are both venomous and poisonous as they collect the toad poison they consume hence if something eats them, the predator gets poisoned.

Ps: I got sprayed on several times by my Naja pallida years ago. I got venom in my mouth as well and had no adverse consequences.
 

The Snark

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Medical terminology
"The traditional synthesized consensus definition of venom is: “a complex substance produced in a specialized gland and delivered by an associated specialized apparatus that is deleterious to other organisms in a given dosage and is actively used in the subjugation and/or digestion of prey and/or in defense” (Minton, 1974; Minton and Minton, 1980; Russell, 1983; Mebs, 2002). According to this definition biological function, that is how it is used, is a crucial defining factor."

A poison is ANY substance which adversely effects the physiological function of a living organism.

Or to sum up, Venom, specific according to usage, Poison, a generalized term without regard to use.
 

Najakeeper

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Medical terminology
"The traditional synthesized consensus definition of venom is: “a complex substance produced in a specialized gland and delivered by an associated specialized apparatus that is deleterious to other organisms in a given dosage and is actively used in the subjugation and/or digestion of prey and/or in defense” (Minton, 1974; Minton and Minton, 1980; Russell, 1983; Mebs, 2002). According to this definition biological function, that is how it is used, is a crucial defining factor."

A poison is ANY substance which adversely effects the physiological function of a living organism.

Or to sum up, Venom, specific according to usage, Poison, a generalized term without regard to use.
So essentially, the term "poisonous snake" (referring to snakes, which can inject venom) is not incorrect but misleadingly imprecise..?
 

Matabuey

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So essentially, the term "poisonous snake" (referring to snakes, which can inject venom) is not incorrect but misleadingly imprecise..?
Yes.

There are tons of papers written by toxicologists that state "poisonous snake, etc.

Venom is a poisonous substance, so technically it isn't incorrect to say poisonous snake. Just not as precise as you could be.
 

Chris LXXIX

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Yes.

There are tons of papers written by toxicologists that state "poisonous snake, etc.
Very true my man, very true. And all of those papers written by no jokes pundits, needless to say, state, as a mantra:
"avoid bites in the neck area" u_u
 

The Snark

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So essentially, the term "poisonous snake" (referring to snakes, which can inject venom) is not incorrect but misleadingly imprecise..?
Poisonous = is or contains poison. Misleading and inaccurate. Implies the snake itself is a poison.
Venomous = possesses glands that secrete venom which is poisonous.

Poison dart frog is correct. The secreted venom, a toxin, makes the entire animal poisonous to predators.
Toxin refers to a poison. Poison is a general term. Venom is specific gland secretions which happen to be poisonous to some but not all organisms.

If a snake secreted toxins, poisons, it would be a hazard to itself.
 
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