Scorpions mysteriously dieing for no reason?!?! HELP please!

[Anonymity82]

Why is there any argument on the care of these scorpions? I have very little experience with these particular scorpions but havent they been successfully kept before? What were the conditions they were kept in? I mean sure their natural climate is important in figuring out captive husbandry, but at this point in time we should not be trying to care for them based off their natural climate and conditions, we should be caring for them based off successful results.

Successful results are the best thing to go by. Negative results can actually be misleading. Like someone saying "room temps killed my scorp.". While some people may be able to legitimately claim something like that, most people make that assumption when it could have been a number of things they were doing wrong that killed the scorp. On the other hand positive results, while not always correct in every aspect, are more reliable. So it would be more beneficial to hear about successful cases of these species living at room temp vs higher temps rather than failed attempts.

That's why I'd like to find some proof that room temps actually have killed scorpions. I've tried the search function and google and can't find any concrete evidence. Everyone can say something and they could possibly be right but I'd still like to see proof or something close to proof. It may be very well correct that scorpions (some species), especially juvies, can't metabolize correctly, thus being unable to molt properly and ultimately die if left in room temps but I can't find any conclusive examples. If I had the money I would perform an experiment and get 20 baby desert hairies (I believe the consensus is these are one of the least hardiest scorpions in the hobby) from the same dealer. 10 I would keep at 90 during the day and 75 at night and the other 10 I would just keep at 75 both day and night. I would try to perform this experiment with other species as well, some desert, some tropical.

 

[ShredderEmp]

instead, why doesnt someone ask ken what he thinks he raises this species nonstop i thhink he would be a good subject to question to get advice

 

[Anonymity82]

That is a good idea just for some insight from someone who has a lot of experience but I'm not sure what that would prove unless he has actually kept them at both temperatures (room temp and higher suggested temps) and has a clear difference in survival. Again, I'm agreeing that some (maybe all) desert scorpions will (definitely breed better) breed and grow more successfully if kept at the suggested temperatures. My issue is that I just want to see proof (studies, articles written by reputable authors etc...) that adult scorpions and juvies will have a higher mortality rate if kept at 72 F. People used to say the same thing about tropical tarantulas (Poecies for ex.) and that's pretty much been proven that they can be kept at room temperatures with ambient room humidity (instead of the 80%+ that you must keep them at or they'll die!) or just slightly higher.

I'm really not trying to argue with anybody or get into a forum "fight" haha, I just want to see the proof. The studies. The endless accounts of tragedy due to improper temperatures. Something besides "You have to do this and you have to do that or they'll die!" without any foundation other than that's how they do it in nature. You guys are probably right that they'll be for less successful at room temperatures but give me a book or some reputable web sites that says something like "We were unsuccessful keeping [add species here] at room temperatures after [add period of time]".

 

[Ivymike1973]

That is a good idea just for some insight from someone who has a lot of experience but I'm not sure what that would prove unless he has actually kept them at both temperatures (room temp and higher suggested temps) and has a clear difference in survival. Again, I'm agreeing that some (maybe all) desert scorpions will (definitely breed better) breed and grow more successfully if kept at the suggested temperatures. My issue is that I just want to see proof (studies, articles written by reputable authors etc...) that adult scorpions and juvies will have a higher mortality rate if kept at 72 F. People used to say the same thing about tropical tarantulas (Poecies for ex.) and that's pretty much been proven that they can be kept at room temperatures with ambient room humidity (instead of the 80%+ that you must keep them at or they'll die!) or just slightly higher.

I'm really not trying to argue with anybody or get into a forum "fight" haha, I just want to see the proof. The studies. The endless accounts of tragedy due to improper temperatures. Something besides "You have to do this and you have to do that or they'll die!" without any foundation other than that's how they do it in nature. You guys are probably right that they'll be for less successful at room temperatures but give me a book or some reputable web sites that says something like "We were unsuccessful keeping [add species here] at room temperatures after [add period of time]".

It sounds like the only way you are going to believe it is to do the experiment yourself as you suggested since you won't accept the statement of an expert on the subject. Eric Ythier specifically states it on his site : http://eycb.pagesperso-orange.fr/scorpions/FAndroctonusSpp.htm but if that isn't enough for you you could probably contact him and ask for specific examples and proof. Otherwise, you can probably get baby desert hairys for around $5 each, maybe less, so for around $100 you can get the information you seek.

You can usually get baby H. arizonensis for pretty cheap (around $5 each) so it wouldn't cost you more than $100 or so.

 

[Anonymity82]

Are you the expert? I wasn't aware I was speaking to an expert, honestly.

Also, I like this website and thanks for sharing! Is Eric an expert too? I have trouble believing care guides from websites because hobbyist are constantly warned about their lack of good information. But, I know they're good ones out there but it's hard to know unless other experts point you in that direction.

I may try this experiment but it will have to wait until I move out and have room to be able to supply to completely different temperatures. One I will keep at a consistent 72 and the others I'll fluctuate from a steady 85 or 90 down to 70 at night. Again, this will be on the back burner .

I've read that this species may be the least hardiest in the hobby. Is this true?

Thanks again for the link! I'm going to read it after dinner. I really do love to learn and I'm fascinated with this hobby I just don't like being told that something IS DEFINITELY A CERTAIN WAY by some stranger (not directed at you) who shows no reason why I should believe him and ridicules me when I ask for some references. Thanks again for the references .

I'm not one to just take people's words for it if I don't know and trust the person or if they don't at least give me a reason to do so. I disagreed with this person and he flew off the handle and mocked me in horribly broken English. I'm supposed to just believe him?

Thanks again for the help Mike!

--Nate

 

[Ivymike1973]

I'm definitely not an expert. As my grandpa used to say, "An ex is a has-been and a spurt is just a drip under pressure"
I consider Eric an expert, although you may not. He certainly has a lot more experience than I do and co-authored a very nice book called "Scorpions of the World"
I am usually pretty cynical as well but some times you need to trust people, otherwise there is no point in even having this board. His site was one of the first I found when I started getting into scorpions. I will try to remember some of the other places I have read about this and post links if I remember. I have been focusing more on centipedes lately so most of my reading/research has been in that area of interest.

From what I have heard, desert hairys are notoriously difficult to raise but I am not sure if they are considered the least hardy in the hobby or not. I only have a couple and one of those is an adult so I only have the one little guy to base my experience on.

In regards to the OP, I have no idea if the temperatures contributed to the death of his scorps but I still suggest that he give them the best chance he can of surviving, which I believe means that he should raise the temps above room temp during the day. They could easily be dying from exposure to pesticides, dehydration, old age, parasites, nicotine poisoning, mad cow disease, etc., etc., etc. Without a thorough analysis of the remains, the enclosure, the environment, etc. there is no way to know for sure what the ultimate cause of death is and it is really pointless to speculate without new information.

 

[Anonymity82]

I've read through some of this and it states "With too low temperatures [too low temperatures are not specified], a young scorpion will never molt and will die, and a pregnant female will never lay and will also die" but what about healthy adults? My main argument had to do with healthy adults and I have repeatedly agreed that young and breeding scorpions will probably die in cooler temps, such as 72 F. I have deviated away from my main argument and asked to see references for juvies as well and thanks for the reference!

"A resting phase can also be provided to these scorpions which, in their natural environments, winter several months during the year. Thus, the scorpion will be maintained at 15°C [59 F] for one or two months, without food and always in a dry place... This period, very favourable to the development, the longevity and the breeding of Androctonus spp, is not easily realizable in captivity and is not essential."

Pretty remarkable! And yet the difference between 80 and 85 will kill them? KDiiX stated that a difference in 5 degrees could kill a scorpion, and he may have meant tarantulas too which goes against everything I've learned about tarantulas.

Thanks again for the link and any answers you may have!

---------- Post added 08-26-2012 at 08:27 PM ----------

I'm definitely not an expert. As my grandpa used to say, "An ex is a has-been and a spurt is just a drip under pressure"
I consider Eric an expert, although you may not. He certainly has a lot more experience than I do and co-authored a very nice book called "Scorpions of the World"
I am usually pretty cynical as well but some times you need to trust people, otherwise there is no point in even having this board. His site was one of the first I found when I started getting into scorpions. I will try to remember some of the other places I have read about this and post links if I remember. I have been focusing more on centipedes lately so most of my reading/research has been in that area of interest.

From what I have heard, desert hairys are notoriously difficult to raise but I am not sure if they are considered the least hardy in the hobby or not. I only have a couple and one of those is an adult so I only have the one little guy to base my experience on.

In regards to the OP, I have no idea if the temperatures contributed to the death of his scorps but I still suggest that he give them the best chance he can of surviving, which I believe means that he should raise the temps above room temp during the day. They could easily be dying from exposure to pesticides, dehydration, old age, parasites, nicotine poisoning, mad cow disease, etc., etc., etc. Without a thorough analysis of the remains, the enclosure, the environment, etc. there is no way to know for sure what the ultimate cause of death is and it is really pointless to speculate without new information.

He is Eric? KDiiX?

 

[Ivymike1973]

No, I would assume that Kdiix is not Eric Ythier. I am not sure of what Kdiix's level of expertise is on the subject. Perhaps he will chime in with his CV and releveant experience.
I do not believe that room temperature would kill an adult (except possibly in the case of a gravid female) but I wouldn't consider it ideal and they are certainly much less active and mine won't normally eat much at lower temps. My LQ definitely prefers higher temps and usually basks right in the hottest part of her enclosure under the heat lamp (it is usually around 105 degrees there) whereas my O.glabrifrons tend to burrow away from the heat.

I also doubt that 5 degrees is enough to be the difference between life and death but I suppose it could be possible. I guess it would depend on where the 5 degree range was. I think that particular claim would require some serious research to validate.

 

[Anonymity82]

LQ? That's awesome that she basks! I'm kind of into creatures I can keep in KKs right now because I have such a small area to work with. I live with multiple people and share a room with my fiance and it's just kind of cluttered. I wouldn't want to try and add heat to a KK because it may melt. The only two scorpions I'm currently keeping are B. jacksoni slings. I've read/heard conflicting information on them. Some say they like it warmer with more humidity and a member here said he's raised them nearly completely dry. Jon3800 has remarked that he keeps them in room temperature and had them for awhile that way. I think he said they molted multiple times although he was unable to catch them molting. I'm sure they'll do fine in 77-79 temps which is room temperature for most of the year here but for a few months it drops nearly 10 degrees. I have no idea how to heat them back up for those few months or if I even have to. Being that certain species have a 2 month cooling period maybe they'll be alright. I have to really study their native lands. I think there's a care sheet for them on SF.

"I consider Eric an expert, although you may not."
"It sounds like the only way you are going to believe it is to do the experiment yourself as you suggested since you won't accept the statement of an expert on the subject"

I'm not sure where I didn't accept an expert's statement throughout this thread. Was Eric mentioned and I missed it? Not trying to sound argumentative, these damn letters can come off looking rude but if I said this out loud you would know I was not being rude in the least. Just inquisitive.




This is an awesome find on this website! http://eycb.pagesperso-orange.fr/scorpions/Fiches3.htm

Babycurus: Temp 28/20 C which is 68-82 F! Perfect!

 

[Ivymike1973]

LQ? That's awesome that she basks! I'm kind of into creatures I can keep in KKs right now because I have such a small area to work with. I live with multiple people and share a room with my fiance and it's just kind of cluttered. I wouldn't want to try and add heat to a KK because it may melt. The only two scorpions I'm currently keeping are B. jacksoni slings. I've read/heard conflicting information on them. Some say they like it warmer with more humidity and a member here said he's raised them nearly completely dry. Jon3800 has remarked that he keeps them in room temperature and had them for awhile that way. I think he said they molted multiple times although he was unable to catch them molting. I'm sure they'll do fine in 77-79 temps which is room temperature for most of the year here but for a few months it drops nearly 10 degrees. I have no idea how to heat them back up for those few months or if I even have to. Being that certain species have a 2 month cooling period maybe they'll be alright. I have to really study their native lands. I think there's a care sheet for them on SF.

I would think you would be safe heating a kritter keeper. As long as the bulb wasn't directly on the plastic or too high of a wattage I wouldn't think you would melt it. Most thermoplastics have a glass transition temp of at least 150° but it is possible they use one that is lower. I have a couple of them so maybe I will test some of the plastic to see what the highest temp it will tolerate is if I find some free time.
Although I will say that I personally wouldn't keep an LQ or any other hot scorp in a kritter keeper because in my experience they are not all that safe/escape proof.

"I consider Eric an expert, although you may not."
"It sounds like the only way you are going to believe it is to do the experiment yourself as you suggested since you won't accept the statement of an expert on the subject"

I'm not sure where I didn't accept an expert's statement throughout this thread. Was Eric mentioned and I missed it? Not trying to sound argumentative, these damn letters can come off looking rude but if I said this out loud you would know I was not being rude in the least. Just inquisitive.

Sorry, Nate. Didn't mean to sound like an ass. I was just going off your previous statements about wanting direct proof and not wanting blanket statements without the direct correlation or documentation of the lower temperatures causing the deaths. It just sounded like a very specific piece of information to get without doing the test yourself or asking one of the experts directly.

This is an awesome find on this website! http://eycb.pagesperso-orange.fr/scorpions/Fiches3.htm

Babycurus: Temp 28/20 C which is 68-82 F! Perfect!

His site has a ton of useful info and is one of my favorite references.

 

[Anonymity82]

It's cool! Honestly, I don't ever see myself getting a hot scorpion anyway. I have the two B. jacksonis and that's as hot as I want to get. Not that the Fattails don't look absolutely amazing! I'm more confident and comfortable with hot true spiders and tarantulas not that tarantulas are ever really that hot haha.

 

[Anonymity82]

instead, why doesnt someone ask ken what he thinks he raises this species nonstop i thhink he would be a good subject to question to get advice

I just watched a Ken The Bug Guy presentation on youtube and he said his shop gets to around 72 for the winter and 85 for the summer. He carries all kinds of critters, including desert hairies. Just thought that was interesting.

He says that for just about all your bugs 65-85.

Sorry for the bump.