Scorpions mysteriously dieing for no reason?!?! HELP please!

kev48584

Arachnopeon
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Feb 3, 2011
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34
So far i had two scorpions die for no reason at all (Buthacus arenicola & desert hair that i forgot it's scientific name) they're kept in room temperature, they have a hide, a water dish, fine sand bought at home depot as substrate. was i doing something wrong???? i keep them dry since they dessert species & i give them roaches but they rarely eat. I noticed that my Sminigerus mesaensis has been walking very weird in it's cage. it reminds me of DKS in tarantulas. it's having a struggle when it's walking. like it's wobbling it's legs. if anyone can give me possible reasons why they died or tell me what's wrong with my sminigerus i would appreciate it so much, thank you all who viewed this for taking the time.
 

shebeen

Arachnobaron
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Jun 24, 2011
Messages
383
Both B. arenicola and H. arizonensis are desert dwelling obligate burrowers. They require temperatures from 85F to 95F and a deep sandy substrate capable of holding burrows and tunnels. A typical substrate would be reptile sand or play sand mixed with 30% excavator clay, moistened and allowed to dry completely. Heat is best provided using a IR heat lamp or ceramic heat element above the enclosure. Your S. mesaensis will benefit from the same temps and substrate.
 

KDiiX

Arachnobaron
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Messages
453
... was i doing something wrong???? i keep them dry since they dessert species & i give them roaches but they rarely eat. I noticed that my Sminigerus mesaensis has been walking very weird in it's cage. it reminds me of DKS in tarantulas. it's having a struggle when it's walking. like it's wobbling it's legs. if anyone can give me possible reasons why they died or tell me what's wrong with my sminigerus i would appreciate it so much, thank you all who viewed this for taking the time.
First of all its SMERINGURUS mesaensis! Second don't forget scientific names. If you don't able to keep them in mind write it down.
Since when in deserts is room temperature? That's may be one reason why they died if they were juveniles that also the reason why they rarely eat, also roaches are not taken frequently by some species or specimen. Other reason may be that they just were old WC and their time was over.
The mesaensis may have a kind of endoparasite but it's hard to say just by reading two sentences of yours. But what I can say you should overthink your behavior in keeping "exotic" animals. You should always give them the best natural environment you can give and room temperature is far away from the most habitats of "exotic" animals!

---------- Post added 08-24-2012 at 11:22 PM ----------

Both B. arenicola and H. arizonensis are desert dwelling obligate burrowers. They require temperatures from 85F to 95F and a deep sandy substrate capable of holding burrows and tunnels. A typical substrate would be reptile sand or play sand mixed with 30% excavator clay, moistened and allowed to dry completely. Heat is best provided using a IR heat lamp or ceramic heat element above the enclosure. Your S. mesaensis will benefit from the same temps and substrate.
Why ir heat lamp or ceramic heat elements? They best, cheapest and most natural is a normal light bulbs or halogen spot.
 

shebeen

Arachnobaron
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KDiiX said:
Why ir heat lamp or ceramic heat elements? They best, cheapest and most natural is a normal light bulbs or halogen spot.
Incandescent or halogen lights might be fine during the day (although a little too bright for my taste), but you wouldn't want to use them during the night. And, unless you keep your scorpions in a dark closet, ambient room light is sufficient to provide a natural day/night cycle.
 

Anonymity82

Arachnoprince
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I'm pretty sure I've read from quite a few members and a couple of books that most scorpions will do fine in room temperature (72 degrees F) If your scorpions are getting twitchy I'm pretty sure it's not from keeping them at room temperature. Check to see if there's anyway you're contaminating your scorpions with any pesticides.

I also agree that it could be old WC scorpions too. We need more details and possibly clear pics/vids of the sic/dead scorpions.

---------- Post added 08-24-2012 at 07:22 PM ----------

Many scorpions, desert included, can survive short periods of very cold temperatures. Even close to freezing. The deserts may get very hot during the day (the scorpions stay in slightly cooler hides or much cooler burrows) but they can also drop significantly at night, much lower than room temperature so this is why I don't think keeping them at a sustained room temperature (guessing 70-72 degrees F) would have such a lethal blow to the welfare of your scorpions.
 
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KDiiX

Arachnobaron
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Incandescent or halogen lights might be fine during the day (although a little too bright for my taste), but you wouldn't want to use them during the night. And, unless you keep your scorpions in a dark closet, ambient room light is sufficient to provide a natural day/night cycle.
Because in deserts the Sun gets also dimmed, because it's otherwise to bright for the scorpion? Why should I use the spots at night? Do you really use your heat elements at night? And no ambient day light is not a natural day/night cycle because natural means to me that it's close to nature as possible and an ambient daylight isn't far as bright as direct sun in deserts.

---------- Post added 08-25-2012 at 02:12 AM ----------

I'm pretty sure I've read from quite a few members and a couple of books that most scorpions will do fine in room temperature (72 degrees F) If your scorpions are getting twitchy I'm pretty sure it's not from keeping them at room temperature. Check to see if there's anyway you're contaminating your scorpions with any pesticides.

I also agree that it could be old WC scorpions too. We need more details and possibly clear pics/vids of the sic/dead scorpions.

---------- Post added 08-24-2012 at 07:22 PM ----------

Many scorpions, desert included, can survive short periods of very cold temperatures. Even close to freezing. The deserts may get very hot during the day (the scorpions stay in slightly cooler hides or much cooler burrows) but they can also drop significantly at night, much lower than room temperature so this is why I don't think keeping them at a sustained room temperature (guessing 70-72 degrees F) would have such a lethal blow to the welfare of your scorpions.
I've read that too, but it's wrong. Most scorpions won't die immediately at room temperature would be correct. You're right saying that they burrow and in their tunnels is a microclimate with different temperature, but for example in deserts its not uncommon that the surface get heated between 120-140F at this temperature they burrow up to a meter or deeper. So I wouldn't recommend such temperature in enclosures(because in your enclosure they can't burrow that deep) but room temperature is way to low to get a natural behave of the scorpion and in my opinion if you keep exotic animals then keep them like in nature. This means until deserts warmer then room temperature keep them warmer too! For many species room temperature may have lethal or at least very bad effects. If cannot afford a natural environment or just not willing to do so, buy a rabbit or something that won't need any extra heat source.
 
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Anonymity82

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KDiiX

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What should this tell us?
Please buy yourself a juvenile desert scorpion and keep it at room temperature and let me know how often he molted before dieing!
Even for tarantulas a to cold keeping means the tarantula searching almost the hole life for a warmer place, which means permanent stress. In few sentences they are right what they saying in general the most is in my opinion just propaganda to legitimate keeping exotics like you want.
 

Danimal

Arachnoknight
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What should this tell us?
Please buy yourself a juvenile desert scorpion and keep it at room temperature and let me know how often he molted before dieing!
Even for tarantulas a to cold keeping means the tarantula searching almost the hole life for a warmer place, which means permanent stress. In few sentences they are right what they saying in general the most is in my opinion just propaganda to legitimate keeping exotics like you want.
I agree with this 100%. Sure some desert scorpions are probably more tolerable than other to colder temperatures, however my experience has always been a healthier, more active, and 'longer lived' scorpion at temps between 80-90 degrees.

I would also be willing to bet that room temperature for most is not consistent at 72 degrees. Example: It was almost 100 degrees F where I live today. My house was set at 68 degrees. When I left for work, my AC gets turned off. When I got home today my inside temp was 81 degrees. Set back to 68 when I got home. Too much fluctuation going on for my scorpions to only be kept at room temp. I am sure I am not the only one doing this.

Scorpions need to be able to regulate what temperature they want to be at. 72 degrees all the time does not give them that option.
 

vespers

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Because in deserts the Sun gets also dimmed, because it's otherwise to bright for the scorpion? Why should I use the spots at night? Do you really use your heat elements at night? And no ambient day light is not a natural day/night cycle because natural means to me that it's close to nature as possible and an ambient daylight isn't far as bright as direct sun in deserts.

---------- Post added 08-25-2012 at 02:12 AM ----------



I've read that too, but it's wrong. Most scorpions won't die immediately at room temperature would be correct. You're right saying that they burrow and in their tunnels is a microclimate with different temperature, but for example in deserts its not uncommon that the surface get heated between 120-140F at this temperature they burrow up to a meter or deeper. So I wouldn't recommend such temperature in enclosures(because in your enclosure they can't burrow that deep) but room temperature is way to low to get a natural behave of the scorpion and in my opinion if you keep exotic animals then keep them like in nature. This means until deserts warmer then room temperature keep them warmer too! For many species room temperature may have lethal or at least very bad effects. If cannot afford a natural environment or just not willing to do so, buy a rabbit or something that won't need any extra heat source.
This week, the night-time lows in the Sonoran Desert are in the mid to low 50's F, and this is the warm season. This is the natural habitat of H. arizonensis and S. mesaensis, and the time when they would be most active. So you should keep them in the refrigerator every night. You should take the bottom out of the refrigerator, dig a several meter deep hole beneath it and fill it with excavator clay. Better yet, you should also provide a tunnel that gives said scorpions direct access to their warmer daytime enclosure. If you can't afford this, or are just not willing to do it, perhaps you should buy a rabbit or something. While you're at it, perhaps you should hang out in the refrigerator for a while too, and see if you can cool off that attitude you seem to have.
 

Anonymity82

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100% disagree with your T statement. They don't search for warmer temperatures. If it's too cold they stop moving, eating and eventually die. And Room temperature is no where near too cold for most tarantulas. Even those who come from hot, humid environments will thrive room temps. They're not reptiles or mammals. They're internal workings are much different and the very fact that Ts can go months, some years, without food should show you how remarkable their ability to survive is. And keeping them at room temp is not just surviving. Again, this depends on what your room temperature is.

Danimal, my house does not fluctuate like that at all. 68-72 in the deadest of winter, and 77-79 most of the year.

I've supplied my links from a reputable writer who has been keeping tarantulas for something like 44 years. Granted it's on tarantulas and not scorpions but don't forget how they said we should keep tarantulas 20 years ago. Read some old books and see how everything is wrong and yet people still were able to keep them alive and healthy. Please supply me some links where people have had bad molts and death due to keeping their scorpions at room temperature (72 degrees F). I'm not saying you don't have any, I just haven't seen any and if you're going to argue your points vehemently you should at least supply some links to back up your point.

Again, my links are for tarantulas and scorpions may or may not be as hardy as most tarantulas but my guess is they're hardier than you give them credit for.

My argument for the OP is that I don't think his scorpions mysteriously died from being kept in room temps granted that his room temp is above 70.

Lets be civil here :). No arguing, just discussion and disagreeing.

---------- Post added 08-25-2012 at 05:38 AM ----------

In few sentences they are right what they saying in general the most is in my opinion just propaganda to legitimate keeping exotics like you want.
If this sentence is true why don't people keep reptiles differently? Because they die. If you keep bearded dragon at room temps it will get sick and die. Tarantulas and scorpions are some of the hardiest creatures on earth. You should give them more credit.
 

KDiiX

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This week, the night-time lows in the Sonoran Desert are in the mid to low 50's F, and this is the warm season. This is the natural habitat of H. arizonensis and S. mesaensis, and the time when they would be most active. So you should keep them in the refrigerator every night. You should take the bottom out of the refrigerator, dig a several meter deep hole beneath it and fill it with excavator clay. Better yet, you should also provide a tunnel that gives said scorpions direct access to their warmer daytime enclosure. If you can't afford this, or are just not willing to do it, perhaps you should buy a rabbit or something. While you're at it, perhaps you should hang out in the refrigerator for a while too, and see if you can cool off that attitude you seem to have.
But you able to read? Please read again my post I think I mentioned that complete natural temperature is not recommended in enclosures because they don't have the space to escape the extreme high temperature. But again I want to see how you get any desert scorpion molted at room temperature! They won't do so and die in effect of this!

Edit: the Argumentation they have 40 years experience is the most baddest Argumentation I ever read. Not the years who long somebody doing something is the measurement for how good somebody doing something.
Btw tarantulas indeed search for warm. Why the tarantula else always NOT Bild their net in the coolest area of the enclosure? Or even better why they leave their net and build a new one on the other side if you change the direction from where you heat. But as far as I can remember the thread wasn't actually about tarantulas, am I wrong?
You need I link as proof for what I'm saying? Are we in Kindergarten? I have experienced myself that for some species even 5 degree F to low don't let them molt. Several Parabuthus villosus died of this until I noticed why. Actually thought once about the fact that's why the scorpions in this thread died and the only reason why you don't read it from the OP is because he seems to be sure that room temperature with desert scorpions is fine? I'm sure many scorpions die for such reasons but their owners not even think about that the temp could be the reason because they think the scorpion looked and behaved all the time fine... At the end they just think of a mysterious dieing like the OP

Btw just some weeks ago on this board we had some guys in a different thread that agree with my statements. Just because you want your link ;-)
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?235443-A.australis-and-A.bicolor-molt
 
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vespers

Arachnodemon
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But you able to read? Please read again my post I think I mentioned that complete natural temperature is not recommended in enclosures because they don't have the space to escape the extreme high temperature. But again I want to see how you get any desert scorpion molted at room temperature! They won't do so and die in effect of this!
Able to read? You have a alot of nerve, given how broken your english often is. Part of my post was obviously sarcasm in response to your know-it-all remarks. The attitude you give off (in this thread and others) is completely unnecessary. Everyone is entitled to participate in the discussion and have their own opinions without you being so condescending. If you're an expert of some kind, I'm sure we would all love to see your credentials.

Edit: the Argumentation they have 40 years experience is the most baddest Argumentation I ever read. Not the years who long somebody doing something is the measurement for how good somebody doing something.
Btw tarantulas indeed search for warm. Why the tarantula else always NOT Bild their net in the coolest area of the enclosure? Or even better why they leave their net and build a new one on the other side if you change the direction from where you heat. But as far as I can remember the thread wasn't actually about tarantulas, am I wrong?
You need I link as proof for what I'm saying? Are we in Kindergarten? I have experienced myself that for some species even 5 degree F to low don't let them molt. Several Parabuthus villosus died of this until I noticed why. Actually thought once about the fact that's why the scorpions in this thread died and the only reason why you don't read it from the OP is because he seems to be sure that room temperature with desert scorpions is fine? I'm sure many scorpions die for such reasons but their owners not even think about that the temp could be the reason because they think the scorpion looked and behaved all the time fine... At the end they just think of a mysterious dieing like the OP

Btw just some weeks ago on this board we had some guys in a different thread that agree with my statements. Just because you want your link ;-)
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?235443-A.australis-and-A.bicolor-molt
Is all of this in response to me, or is this in response to another post? I didn't mention anything about "40 years experience", nor did I talk about P. villosus. You keep talking about molting...if you have an adult, then that aspect of your argument becomes irrelevant. That being said, I do think reasonable temperature fluctuations are good when keeping scorpions.
 

Anonymity82

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But you able to read? Please read again my post I think I mentioned that complete natural temperature is not recommended in enclosures because they don't have the space to escape the extreme high temperature. But again I want to see how you get any desert scorpion molted at room temperature! They won't do so and die in effect of this!

Edit: the Argumentation they have 40 years experience is the most baddest Argumentation I ever read. Not the years who long somebody doing something is the measurement for how good somebody doing something.
Btw tarantulas indeed search for warm. Why the tarantula else always NOT Bild their net in the coolest area of the enclosure? Or even better why they leave their net and build a new one on the other side if you change the direction from where you heat. But as far as I can remember the thread wasn't actually about tarantulas, am I wrong?
You need I link as proof for what I'm saying? Are we in Kindergarten? I have experienced myself that for some species even 5 degree F to low don't let them molt. Several Parabuthus villosus died of this until I noticed why. Actually thought once about the fact that's why the scorpions in this thread died and the only reason why you don't read it from the OP is because he seems to be sure that room temperature with desert scorpions is fine? I'm sure many scorpions die for such reasons but their owners not even think about that the temp could be the reason because they think the scorpion looked and behaved all the time fine... At the end they just think of a mysterious dieing like the OP

Btw just some weeks ago on this board we had some guys in a different thread that agree with my statements. Just because you want your link ;-)
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?235443-A.australis-and-A.bicolor-molt
No need to be a jerk. I'm just disagreeing with you that the OP's scorpions are dying recently because he's keeping them at room temp, granted it's above 70 preferably above 72. Maybe it's possible that for some species, room temp may cause some molting problems. He has said nothing to the fact that they were juvies or trying to molt.

Your insinuation that Stan, the writer of 3 published books with 44 years experience in the arachnid keeping hobby was doing it wrong all these years is just asinine.

If you want people to take your claims seriously you will need to provide links from reputable sources. A link to another post with one person agreeing with you is by no means reputable. If we all just took each other's words for it the world would still be flat, the stars would not actually be giant burning balls of gasses but our Gods, and I would be the handsomest man alive (says my grandmother).

Let me get this out there: THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT A 5 DEGREE DIFFERENCE IS GOING TO MAKE OR BREAK A MOLT. They've been on this planet for HUNDREDS of millions of years. And you think a 5 degree difference is going to kill them?!

There's thousands of reasons why your scorpions could have died but unless you're an Arachnologist with the time and equipment to study your dead scorpions you're only guessing.

---------- Post added 08-25-2012 at 11:55 AM ----------

Able to read? You have a alot of nerve, given how broken your english often is. Part of my post was obviously sarcasm in response to your know-it-all remarks. The attitude you give off (in this thread and others) is completely unnecessary. Everyone is entitled to participate in the discussion and have their own opinions without you being so condescending. If you're an expert of some kind, I'm sure we would all love to see your credentials.

Is all of this in response to me, or is this in response to another post? I didn't mention anything about "40 years experience", nor did I talk about P. villosus. You keep talking about molting...if you have an adult, then that aspect of your argument becomes irrelevant. That being said, I do think reasonable temperature fluctuations are good when keeping scorpions.
Here's another source: Scorpions Plus Other Popular Invertebrates by Jerry G. Walls (2006)

"Scorpions become inactive during low temperatures, but most can survive temperatures below 60 degrees F (16 C) for long periods and even near-freezing temperatures for a short while without long term affects. Heat is much more dangerous to a scorpion." PG. 18

Maybe your scorpions died not because the 5 degree difference but because you're keeping them too hot under heat lamps with bright lights. Probably dying of stress.
 
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shebeen

Arachnobaron
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Jun 24, 2011
Messages
383
KDiiX said:
Because in deserts the Sun gets also dimmed, because it's otherwise to bright for the scorpion? Why should I use the spots at night? Do you really use your heat elements at night? And no ambient day light is not a natural day/night cycle because natural means to me that it's close to nature as possible and an ambient daylight isn't far as bright as direct sun in deserts.
Scorpions are nocturnal, so it doesn't matter how bright or dim the light is during the day, they're going to be avoiding it regardless. And, yes, I do heat my H. arizonensis enclosure during the night. This week, the 5 day night time lows for southern Arizona (via weather.com) will range between 75F - 86F. This is much warmer than I keep my house. During the winter, I don't heat my enclosure at all because the Sonoran Desert gets quite cold in winter.
 

KDiiX

Arachnobaron
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Able to read? You have a alot of nerve, given how broken your english often is. Part of my post was obviously sarcasm in response to your know-it-all remarks. The attitude you give off (in this thread and others) is completely unnecessary. Everyone is entitled to participate in the discussion and have their own opinions without you being so condescending. If you're an expert of some kind, I'm sure we would all love to see your credentials.

Is all of this in response to me, or is this in response to another post? I didn't mention anything about "40 years experience", nor did I talk about P. villosus. You keep talking about molting...if you have an adult, then that aspect of your argument becomes irrelevant. That being said, I do think reasonable temperature fluctuations are good when keeping scorpions.
No of course not all in response to you, but should have noticed by yourself like you said you never said something about 40 years experience etc.
The villosus was another example. The OP never said he have adults. So a to cold keeping still is a possible reason for "mysterious" dieing of desert scorpions. I say in general desert scorpions because me and enough others experienced that with many different desert species.
Btw I clearly understand it was sarcasm but in this case it just was unnecessary because I said in the same post that a full imitation of the habitat is nearly impossible but if not warm enough it cause different problems. For example the problems that they don't molt. But also problems in breeding or giving birth.

Edit: for 5 degree argument of njnolan. Yes they died because it was too hot, but that's also the reason why the other Do much better when I raised temperature from 80F to above 85
F!

Edit2: yes room temperature would harm them less then natural temperature like 120-140F surface temperature, but I never said that it's a good idea to keep them that hot. I actually said this is contra productive because in enclosures you don't have the deepness of the substrate, but they need a lot warmer spot then room temperature for several reasons I said above.
 
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Ivymike1973

Arachnoknight
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Although he may not have the best attitude about it. Kdiix is correct in regards to some species of desert scorps (especially many Andros and Parabuthus) needing to have higher temps in order to metabolize food and molt properly. I wouldn't generalize and say that this applies to all desert scorps but I would definitely advise that the OP use some supplemental heat during the day. Desert Hairys are notorious for being difficult to raise as it is difficult to get them to molt properly. I keep mine at 80 to 95 degrees during the day and let them cool down to 60 to 70 degrees at night. My little dude molted successfully last month so I am hoping this will continue to keep him healthy.

To the OP, it is difficult, if not impossible to ascertain the true reason for your scorpions dying but the more information you give us the better chance we have of helping you. As stated above, some scorpions do not like roaches. Some of mine will take them and some of them won't. I would recommend feeding crickets and adding a heat lamp and see if your scorp improves. Good luck. I hope he/she gets better
 

Anonymity82

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Although he may not have the best attitude about it. Kdiix is correct in regards to some species of desert scorps (especially many Andros and Parabuthus) needing to have higher temps in order to metabolize food and molt properly. I wouldn't generalize and say that this applies to all desert scorps but I would definitely advise that the OP use some supplemental heat during the day. Desert Hairys are notorious for being difficult to raise as it is difficult to get them to molt properly. I keep mine at 80 to 95 degrees during the day and let them cool down to 60 to 70 degrees at night. My little dude molted successfully last month so I am hoping this will continue to keep him healthy.

To the OP, it is difficult, if not impossible to ascertain the true reason for your scorpions dying but the more information you give us the better chance we have of helping you. As stated above, some scorpions do not like roaches. Some of mine will take them and some of them won't. I would recommend feeding crickets and adding a heat lamp and see if your scorp improves. Good luck. I hope he/she gets better
Links. I want to believe you but I can't just go buy "suggestions." Please provide some links or references to actual cases of room temperature killing off scorpions, even juvies. I'm not trying to sound rude but I honestly want to read first hand accounts of people losing their scorpions because it's too cool. Even juveniles although I do agree that some species and individuals may find it harder to molt and subsequently die if the temperatures are too cool. I'm not arguing about breeding or even juvies and their molting. I've actually agreed previously that cooler temperatures may cause molting issues in some species. Even though I agree I would still like to read first hand accounts.

I've supplied my links and a passage from a book dedicated on scorpions. I've read that ideal temperatures for juvies and breeding is warmer than room temperatures for many species but for adult scorpions, pretty sure it's agreed upon that scorpions do not molt again once they're adults, that room temperature is suitable. The OP hasn't said one way or the other so maybe I assumed he/she was talking about adults. The OP has definitely let out a lot of information and also my bad for assuming they're adults.

AND I WILL NEVER AGREE THAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 85 AND 90 WILL CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF A MOLT. 85 and 95 possibly. 80 and 100 definitely. 80 and 90 possibly, 85 and 90... never.

I'm also not saying that the OP shouldn't get a heat lamp that's carefully monitored to ensure that it doesn't get too hot.

---------- Post added 08-25-2012 at 08:22 PM ----------

As stated above, some scorpions do not like roaches.
One of my B. jacksoni slings actually took a roach... once and not since.
 
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Twillis10

Arachnosquire
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Why is there any argument on the care of these scorpions? I have very little experience with these particular scorpions but havent they been successfully kept before? What were the conditions they were kept in? I mean sure their natural climate is important in figuring out captive husbandry, but at this point in time we should not be trying to care for them based off their natural climate and conditions, we should be caring for them based off successful results.

Successful results are the best thing to go by. Negative results can actually be misleading. Like someone saying "room temps killed my scorp.". While some people may be able to legitimately claim something like that, most people make that assumption when it could have been a number of things they were doing wrong that killed the scorp. On the other hand positive results, while not always correct in every aspect, are more reliable. So it would be more beneficial to hear about successful cases of these species living at room temp vs higher temps rather than failed attempts.
 
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