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Scorpion vs spider

Discussion in 'Scorpions' started by errit, Jul 18, 2004.

  1. errit

    errit Arachnolord Old Timer

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    I am wondering, I believe the most venemous scorpion in the world is L. Quinquestriatus and according to some it is A. Crassicauda. But is one of these scorpions more venemous than the most venemous spider in the world?

    Some of these most venemous spiders are the black widow, the red back spider, the brown recluse, the funnelweb spider. And according to scientis the brazilian wondering spider (phoneutria nigriventer) is the most venemous spider in the world.

    So who do you think is more venemous, a spider or a scorpion?
     
  2. G. Carnell

    G. Carnell Arachnoemperor Old Timer

    EU
    spider :p i think phoneutria tops them all (could be wrong though)

    thenagain all scorpion venoms would kill a spider and all spider venoms would kill a scorpion of similar size i would guess, so venemosity is only different in regards to larger animals i think
    (my mind speaking {D)
     
  3. Navaros

    Navaros Arachnoprince Old Timer

    I think Atrax is the worst, not sure though.
     
  4. Ythier

    Ythier Arachnoprince Old Timer

    Scorpions for me :)
    There are more deaths each year in the world by scorpions than spiders.
    Regarding spiders, I think too Phoneutria and Atrax are the most aggressives, so there are many accidents, but I don't think they have the most dangerous venom. The winner of the most dangerous venoms in spiders seems to be Sicarius spp (more dangerous than Latrodectus or Atrax), but as the species isn't in contact with many humans there are not many accidents.
    Greetings,
    Eric
     
  5. carpe scorpio

    carpe scorpio Arachnoking Old Timer

  6. G. Carnell

    G. Carnell Arachnoemperor Old Timer

    EU
    yuck......
    also i was told by someone (who would know) that scorps kill more people than snakes each year ;(
    so maybe scorps do win D;
     
  7. Navaros

    Navaros Arachnoprince Old Timer

    That's a pretty cool spider. Looks like a pebble.
     
  8. errit

    errit Arachnolord Old Timer

    What a strange looking spider. i always thought that phoneutria nigriventer was regarded by scientist as having the most toxic venom of any living spider.

    By the way scorpions do not kill more people than snakes. only in a few countries that is true like mexico. But in india alone there are 20000 people a year killed by snakes.
     
  9. ScorpDude

    ScorpDude Arachnoangel Old Timer

    spiders might be more deadly to use, but they are ambush preditors. scorpions on the other hand, you only have to look at the to realise they are just built killing machines.

    they have very tough armor like plating, pretecting them from bites, scratches, stings, etc. they have 2 pincers at the front, the use of them varies species to species. but in alot of cases they are very strong, able to crush an animal of the same size of them. now there is the sting, again the use of this varies species to species, in the more "dangerous" (to us) species the pincers would be used simply to hold the food item there for the sting to infect a very potent venom. in the stronger species, the sting would be used as a defence measure mainly, or sometimes if the food item was very strong.

    personally, i think the best scorpions around, are the kind that are strong enough to easily crush thier food, yet have the venom to kill things larger than them (small animals, not humans).

    to conclude...

    scorpions = natures killing machines
     
  10. MilkmanWes

    MilkmanWes Arachnobaron Old Timer

    If we are talking human injuries or fatalities here....

    Toxicity aside - which can deliver the venom easier to a human, a spider or a scorpion?

    Seems to me that even if a venom was slightly less potent but easier to deliver it would be more dangerous to an ususpecting person.

    I am new to keeping Arachnids, but just on physical observation alone I would say that a scorpion might have more reach and be able to hit a target in a wider 'field of fire' than a spider. If this is an innacurate assumption then I would be curious to know.

    Also add to this 'penetratring power' of the stinger or fang. Can some scorpions go through gloves or denim jeans that a spider couldn't? Wouldn't all this also sway death statistics since they don't take into account the conditions that the envenomation took place?
     
  11. errit

    errit Arachnolord Old Timer

    Actually i was wondering wich one has the most potent venom, a scorpion or a spider.
     
  12. leiurus

    leiurus Arachnobaron

    So you don't mean the most dangerous.
    Dom
     
  13. 8 leg wonder

    8 leg wonder Arachnoangel Old Timer

    What do you mean, a spiders fangs couldn't go through denim jeans, Have you seen the size of a full grown T.blondi's fangs(1.5in long)
     
  14. errit

    errit Arachnolord Old Timer

    No not the most dangerous but wich one has drop for drop the most toxic venom. I think it would be a match between L. Quinquestriatus or maybe A. Crassicauda versus Latrodactus sp. Funnelweb spiders Phoneutria nigriventer and sicarius wich has a highly cytotoxic venom. :eek:
     
  15. Wolvie56X

    Wolvie56X Arachnobaron Old Timer

    funnel webs have been known to kill people in 3 minutes, not sure if that includes the allergic reaction side of it or not, but still something you dont wanna get tagged by

    i dont think its entirely sure to actually run out and find, drop for drop, which is the most toxic, because as we have learned(fausta) its not entirely the most toxic, but who injects more as well, so heres a new twist, which species can deliver the most venom in one bite, with the most toxic venom?

    im going with A. Australis
     
  16. Wolvie56X

    Wolvie56X Arachnobaron Old Timer

    also, not including the funnel web, but if you were to put a scorpion and a spider/tarantula of comparible size against each other, both being extremely toxic, the scorpion will always win, seeing how no tarantulas are considered toxic, where as there are many scorps, and the most toxic spiders are pretty feeble looking and not over powering like a scorp would be
     
  17. Ythier

    Ythier Arachnoprince Old Timer

    mmm...and our friends T.serrulatus, C.noxius, H.lepturus, B.tunetanus and M.tamulus ? ;)
    Greetings,
    Eric
     
  18. errit

    errit Arachnolord Old Timer

    Yes they are very toxic also. aside from M. Tamulus,( I have never seen LD50 figures from this species and it does kill a lot) I don't think any of the above is more toxic than Leiurus. So that is why I diddn't mention those ones.

    I was looking for the most toxic no matter how poor quantity of venom it has, not the most dangerous or biggest or meanest ;P But maybe by comparing it to LD50 figures would be easier to find out wich is the most toxic. I don't have any LD50 figures for a lot of dangerous spiders.

    I know LD50 measurements don't give an exact picture of how venemous an animal is to a human. But it is a kind of indication of its toxicity.

    By the way, My apologies if my english isn't always easy to read. That is because it is not my native language.

    Greetings from Holland :)
     
  19. carpe scorpio

    carpe scorpio Arachnoking Old Timer

    It is also important when examining LD50 numbers, to note whether or not the venom was introduced subcutaneously or intravenously.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2004
  20. errit

    errit Arachnolord Old Timer

    Yes, That is why I mentiond L. Quinquestriatus and A. Crassicauda because Subcutaneously L. Quinquestriatus has the lowest LD 50 of 0.25 mg-kg and Intravenously Androctonus Crassicauda scores the lowest with 0.08 mg-kg

    By the way, I just read an article wich mentiond an LD50 figure from P. Nigriventer. wich was 0.34 mg-kg. So no matter if that was IV or SC it is less venemous than the most venemous scorpion.
    I donĀ“t have a figure for Sicarius sp. But this one has cytotoxic venom so it is very hard to compare.
     
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