Scorpion Toxicity

[ReignofInvertebrates]

I’ve recently become very intrigued by scorpion toxicology and also would like to know which species in the hobby are on the “hotter” side and which are not. Is there some sort of database or website that holds this information? For example when someone tells me a certain species’ sting is a 3/5 and another is a 4/5, where are they getting this from? Is it just something the community has created to gauge the general effects of stings or is it something recorded in literature?

 

[Poonjab]

Never looked but this might help. Click on each species. Might help you gauge intensity. https://arachnoboards.com/threads/scorpion-sting-report-index.13562/

 

[Arachnid Rarities]

I’ve recently become very intrigued by scorpion toxicology and also would like to know which species in the hobby are on the “hotter” side and which are not. Is there some sort of database or website that holds this information? For example when someone tells me a certain species’ sting is a 3/5 and another is a 4/5, where are they getting this from? Is it just something the community has created to gauge the general effects of stings or is it something recorded in literature?

The scale of 1-5 gives a very general ranges of severity but the topic of venom is so complex. This is an area of research I hope to contribute to, but venom can vary in potency even within scorpion species and individual scorpion. I prefer the medically significant terminology but even that has it’s shortfalls. What may be medically significant to me may not be to you and vice versa.

 

[Chebe6886]

I have had a couple hotter ones and the most potent venom I’ve seen is T. Stigmurus. I’m sure there are hotter but it’s disturbing how fast and effective theirs is

 

[Dr SkyTower]

Some scorpions, especially the more venomous species, deliver dry stings to a victim, so little to no venom is injected. I believe its a warning they give before they nail you with a fully loaded bullet. They can also change the toxicity in their venom to suit the prey item they're stinging.

 

[Lewis Catlin]

Then you’ve got people like me who has allergic reactions to even Asian forest scorpion stings thank god I haven’t been stung by anything else- maybe different venom / toxins might not give me the same reaction... **places hands in a.australis cage. Realised that’s stupid**

In all serious though all venom is bad whether it’s “medically significant” or not. They will all cause some cellular change / damage.

 

[ReignofInvertebrates]

Then you’ve got people like me who has allergic reactions to even Asian forest scorpion stings thank god I haven’t been stung by anything else- maybe different venom / toxins might not give me the same reaction... **places hands in a.australis cage. Realised that’s stupid**

In all serious though all venom is bad whether it’s “medically significant” or not. They will all cause some cellular change / damage.

Yeah I think I’d be especially paranoid if I was allergic. I don’t plan on being stung by any of my scorps but I do like to at least know what to expect in a worst case scenario.

 

[ignithium]

To try to answer the question more directly, i generally think 3 categories are better to use when classifying of the venoms: insignificant, local, and systemic of reaction type.
Sorry for bad english. What I am meaning: heterometrus species is insignificant venoms. Unless you are having of an allergy, the sting it will perhaps be painful but there will be 0 long term effects. Other example, its hadogenes sp.
Next category it is local venoms. Good example for here is Centruroides sculpturatus. This scorpions his sting it is painful, but also it will make localized medical effect, if it makes sense. Thinking it like a bee sting kind of. The sting it cause swelling, cell damages, muscle pain, can be bad. But this is isolated to extremity of which it has suffered the sting. In only rare cases, does individual suffer systemic envenomation from this species. Systemic meaning, it is affecting the whole body, and can potentially make of a long term damage to internal organs or other serious health issue. In mind to be, local envenom it can still of cause permanent damage, but only to the exact spot of which it is stung. Other than the centruroides species which I have mention, many other buthids (most) it is falling into this category. For example, Rhopalurus and Babycurus.
Third category it is the rarest, this is systemic envenomation with high potential. For species possessing of this venom, it causes often (but not necessity) systemic effect, meaning whole body is affect by venom. This category its the dangerous ones, because can cause a damaging of the organs, and sometimes death. Of this is the famous genuses, like Androctonus, Leiurus, Hottentotta, Parabuthus, etc. As i say this species it does not guarantee systemic envenomation, just that it is capable of it. From the before category, it really is not capable, but for super old peoples with diabetes or something, it can happen, but personally i dont believe, maybe it exacerbate some dormant issue that causes systemic affects. But for Leiurus example, excluding of the dry stings, it will causing above a 30% chance for systemic envenomation in healthy adult. Its not studied well, but from all reputable source, the chances in healthy adults is not 35% for hottest species, LQ it was the highest at around 34% systemic in healthy adult, Andro Crassicauda was similar, and others were all lower, for examples even Tityus serrulatus is far below 10%.
There is one additional tier, really which is just the Hemiscorpius lepturus, its not even a buthid, but actually a unique species that have a necrotoxin, unsimilar to most buthid which is using neurotoxin or in some case like Nebo its using hemotoxin. For Hemiscorpius lepturus, its above 70% for systemic envenomation, truly most dangerous toxin in arachnid world, I believe even its far worse than funnel web or wandering spider, who is using neurotoxins and for comparision, has lower SE rates than most hot scorpions (comparable to Tityus and Hottentotta, far below LQ and Androctonus, Parabuthus, etc.) For this scorpion, its more comparable to a snake bite, than an arachnid.
Hopefuly this is helpful. Hard to explaining, because google do not translate well when i type large amount of a stuff at it, but i think this more about the info that you were looking about

 

[ignithium]

regarding webpages, mainly the stuff that i read is in russian or czech, i can linking if u want, there is fairly good studies that i can find but its not translate at all. For english, there is website toxinology.com which is made by university of adelaide from the australia, its got some quite good info, but fair warning for non australian species its complete garbage, they have stuff listed that is just speculative info if u actually read it, no study supported at all. But for australia species, and some few foreign species with good data like loxosceles reclusa, they have very good info about venoms and stuff, its closest thing i think to an actual database that u were looking for

 

[Arachnid Rarities]

To try to answer the question more directly, i generally think 3 categories are better to use when classifying of the venoms: insignificant, local, and systemic of reaction type.
Sorry for bad english. What I am meaning: heterometrus species is insignificant venoms. Unless you are having of an allergy, the sting it will perhaps be painful but there will be 0 long term effects. Other example, its hadogenes sp.
Next category it is local venoms. Good example for here is Centruroides sculpturatus. This scorpions his sting it is painful, but also it will make localized medical effect, if it makes sense. Thinking it like a bee sting kind of. The sting it cause swelling, cell damages, muscle pain, can be bad. But this is isolated to extremity of which it has suffered the sting. In only rare cases, does individual suffer systemic envenomation from this species. Systemic meaning, it is affecting the whole body, and can potentially make of a long term damage to internal organs or other serious health issue. In mind to be, local envenom it can still of cause permanent damage, but only to the exact spot of which it is stung. Other than the centruroides species which I have mention, many other buthids (most) it is falling into this category. For example, Rhopalurus and Babycurus.
Third category it is the rarest, this is systemic envenomation with high potential. For species possessing of this venom, it causes often (but not necessity) systemic effect, meaning whole body is affect by venom. This category its the dangerous ones, because can cause a damaging of the organs, and sometimes death. Of this is the famous genuses, like Androctonus, Leiurus, Hottentotta, Parabuthus, etc. As i say this species it does not guarantee systemic envenomation, just that it is capable of it. From the before category, it really is not capable, but for super old peoples with diabetes or something, it can happen, but personally i dont believe, maybe it exacerbate some dormant issue that causes systemic affects. But for Leiurus example, excluding of the dry stings, it will causing above a 30% chance for systemic envenomation in healthy adult. Its not studied well, but from all reputable source, the chances in healthy adults is not 35% for hottest species, LQ it was the highest at around 34% systemic in healthy adult, Andro Crassicauda was similar, and others were all lower, for examples even Tityus serrulatus is far below 10%.
There is one additional tier, really which is just the Hemiscorpius lepturus, its not even a buthid, but actually a unique species that have a necrotoxin, unsimilar to most buthid which is using neurotoxin or in some case like Nebo its using hemotoxin. For Hemiscorpius lepturus, its above 70% for systemic envenomation, truly most dangerous toxin in arachnid world, I believe even its far worse than funnel web or wandering spider, who is using neurotoxins and for comparision, has lower SE rates than most hot scorpions (comparable to Tityus and Hottentotta, far below LQ and Androctonus, Parabuthus, etc.) For this scorpion, its more comparable to a snake bite, than an arachnid.
Hopefuly this is helpful. Hard to explaining, because google do not translate well when i type large amount of a stuff at it, but i think this more about the info that you were looking about

Great summary, very well written.

 

[ReignofInvertebrates]

To try to answer the question more directly, i generally think 3 categories are better to use when classifying of the venoms: insignificant, local, and systemic of reaction type.
Sorry for bad english. What I am meaning: heterometrus species is insignificant venoms. Unless you are having of an allergy, the sting it will perhaps be painful but there will be 0 long term effects. Other example, its hadogenes sp.
Next category it is local venoms. Good example for here is Centruroides sculpturatus. This scorpions his sting it is painful, but also it will make localized medical effect, if it makes sense. Thinking it like a bee sting kind of. The sting it cause swelling, cell damages, muscle pain, can be bad. But this is isolated to extremity of which it has suffered the sting. In only rare cases, does individual suffer systemic envenomation from this species. Systemic meaning, it is affecting the whole body, and can potentially make of a long term damage to internal organs or other serious health issue. In mind to be, local envenom it can still of cause permanent damage, but only to the exact spot of which it is stung. Other than the centruroides species which I have mention, many other buthids (most) it is falling into this category. For example, Rhopalurus and Babycurus.
Third category it is the rarest, this is systemic envenomation with high potential. For species possessing of this venom, it causes often (but not necessity) systemic effect, meaning whole body is affect by venom. This category its the dangerous ones, because can cause a damaging of the organs, and sometimes death. Of this is the famous genuses, like Androctonus, Leiurus, Hottentotta, Parabuthus, etc. As i say this species it does not guarantee systemic envenomation, just that it is capable of it. From the before category, it really is not capable, but for super old peoples with diabetes or something, it can happen, but personally i dont believe, maybe it exacerbate some dormant issue that causes systemic affects. But for Leiurus example, excluding of the dry stings, it will causing above a 30% chance for systemic envenomation in healthy adult. Its not studied well, but from all reputable source, the chances in healthy adults is not 35% for hottest species, LQ it was the highest at around 34% systemic in healthy adult, Andro Crassicauda was similar, and others were all lower, for examples even Tityus serrulatus is far below 10%.
There is one additional tier, really which is just the Hemiscorpius lepturus, its not even a buthid, but actually a unique species that have a necrotoxin, unsimilar to most buthid which is using neurotoxin or in some case like Nebo its using hemotoxin. For Hemiscorpius lepturus, its above 70% for systemic envenomation, truly most dangerous toxin in arachnid world, I believe even its far worse than funnel web or wandering spider, who is using neurotoxins and for comparision, has lower SE rates than most hot scorpions (comparable to Tityus and Hottentotta, far below LQ and Androctonus, Parabuthus, etc.) For this scorpion, its more comparable to a snake bite, than an arachnid.
Hopefuly this is helpful. Hard to explaining, because google do not translate well when i type large amount of a stuff at it, but i think this more about the info that you were looking about

Thanks for this, it’s very helpful. I suppose a systemic envenomation rate in healthy adults is probably the best way to gauge the expected effects considering individuals can react so differently. It probably wouldn’t be too difficult to find this info for some species with a quick google search.

 

[ignithium]

Thanks for this, it’s very helpful. I suppose a systemic envenomation rate in healthy adults is probably the best way to gauge the expected effects considering individuals can react so differently. It probably wouldn’t be too difficult to find this info for some species with a quick google search.

surprisingly its quite hard to find accurate info. Problem is there are no good studies, since most venom studies is just ld50 which is useless because humans react much differently to this venoms than rodents (eg Atrax robustus). Therefore, most info comes from healthcare institutes. Problem with this is well illustrated with the Phoneutria data that can be found on Brasil university's websites. They get data from physicians and patients who report Phoneutria sp. bites. But average physician and patient knows only vaguely what Phoneutria is, and thus, many people with small prick wounds that are suffering swelling, etc., it is blamed on Phoneutria when it is bite from sicarius, or loxosceles, or not even spider bite at all. Conversely, many people will report Phoneutria bite but have very mild symptoms, and also they were not bitten by Phoneutria, but just saw a spider or were scared or something. So even for species like this which is of high interest and lots of data, the data is very skeptical due to misreporting, and has lots of type 1 and type 2 error, where spider is recorded both to causes severe cases that it did not cause and also to cause unimportant case that it did not cause. Of course, its somewhat expected, because its a hard thing to test. After all, you cannot pay people to be stung by leiurus or bitten by phoneutria!
In the case of Phoneutria, which again i bring up because it is compared to other hot arachnids fairly well studied, given the amount of "confirmed" (by local physicians) bites reported and the amount of systemic envenomations treated, you will arrive at a SE rate of <0.2%. For an animal with reputation of Phoneutria, this is quite surprising. Depending on where you get the data for Atrax robustus, which has the privilege of living in a first world country but is still quite understudied, the numbers vary extremely greatly, and can be comparable to these phoneutria studies or far more greatly inflated. In the end, one must take it generally with a grain of salt, but I think you must arrive at one of two conclusions: firstly, either most (or at least many) of these bites are reported accurately, and the venom potential and danger of these species is GREATLY exaggerated and they realistically pose little threat at all to healthy adults (see anecdotes from European militaries in North Africa during the Great Wars, many stings from Androctonus australis were recorded to cause local pain in soldiers but no severe effects at all) OR you must conclude that the vast majority of these reports are misdiagnosed (by a different species, or not by an arachnid at all) and thus the non severe cases are false-negatives and the animals are quite deadly, but much more reclusive and less likely to sting someone just going about their day. Personally, I believe it is a mix of the two, I think cases are greatly misreported but still that the overall danger of even the hottest arachnid species is greatly exaggerated and misunderstood. But again, the conclusion to draw should be your own. I hope there will be better methods of studying these animals, but unfortunately the fact remains that as of now, many species (even within the hobby) are not known more complexly than their general natural range and assigned scientific names, and the venom is barely studied at all.