Scorpion mating behavior?

Goanna

Arachnosquire
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I have a large female emperor who had babies recently. I've been checking on her every day and feeding her a couple times a week. All was fine until the other day. I went to check on her, and there were no babies and she was extreamly fat (None of the babies were off her back yet, only a couple weeks old)!

So, since she no longer had any babies I decided to take her out of the smaller isolation tank I had her on and put her into the larger well decorated tank with my red claw of about the same size.

Well, about 10 seconds after putting her in they went at it. The fighting quickly turned into mating behavior, and the male red claw brought her right over to a flat rock to deposit his spermatophore.

As soon as the deed was done, the red claw went after her again trying to sting her, so I seperated her again.

Is it normal for fighting like this to take place or could this just have been because it was a red claw and an emp, and not 2 of the same species?
 

Brian S

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Dude, You might should have separated them. Thats all we need is a bunch of hybrids in the gene pool now. If something does become of this be sure to label them as a hybrid
 
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Arachno Kid

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Dude, You might should have separated them. Thats all we need is a bunch of hybrids in the gene pool now. If something does become of this be sure to label them as a hybrid

I Agree, but I would l ike to see the end results of this, a emp with the ferocity of a red claw would be pretty cool man, but make sure to lable like brian said, I might actually buy one if this gos through all the way :p
 

EAD063

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Thats a tad careless. If even one of those gets out and is fertile, it could successfully ruin the pandinus genus. Why would you keep different species together anyways? They're not fish.
 

David Burns

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But if it turns out that the scorplings that result from this sac are fertile, it will be needed proof that these are not 2 seperate species. They may infact be subspecies or even diferent colorforms of the same species.
 

EAD063

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But if it turns out that the scorplings that result from this sac are fertile, it will be needed proof that these are not 2 seperate species. They may infact be subspecies or even diferent colorforms of the same species.
Do you mean it would have to be determined if P cavimanus and P imperator are two differnt species and not just a sub-species of one or the other? I'm not quite sure if that's what you mean, and I know the taxonmy for scorpions is all out of whack, but by saying that you are basically implying that each genus begins with one species, and then differnt subspecies arose thereafter. I do belive DNA sequencing proves that wrong. Either way, cross-breeding ruins bloodlines, in all species, not just scorpions.

Also, have you read Systematics and biogeography of the family Scorpionidae?

EDIT: Wow, was I not clear at all. Yes, obvious all things evolve from a common ancestor, but after many more years of evolution, different species become morphologically differnt from they're predecessor.
 
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David Burns

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My, often flawed, understanding, of the way species are proved to be different, is that two species that breed create a hybrid. A hybrid from two different species should be sterile. While this is not true of all branches of animals it is still considered true for arthropods. If the offspring of separate species is viable it means that they weren't separate species to begin with. While this may have been changed with the advent of DNA sequencing, it was the way you proved that like specimens were different species in the past.
 

EAD063

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My, often flawed, understanding, of the way species are proved to be different, is that two species that breed create a hybrid. A hybrid from two different species should be sterile. While this is not true of all branches of animals it is still considered true for arthropods. If the offspring of separate species is viable it means that they weren't separate species to begin with. While this may have been changed with the advent of DNA sequencing, it was the way you proved that like specimens were different species in the past.
Yes I understand. Although if a breed between 2 species or even sub-species would result in a 3rd, studied, recognized and understood species, it would be common knowledge, at least to some hobbyiest (even more considering we are in the internet age and word of mouth spreads quickly). If you can find that systematics paper you may find it quite interesting.. It is published by a facility in New Jersey which studies scorpions with acess to many new and high technology devices.. Although sometimes they're papers look like complete jibberish, some, if not a lot of the main points can be identified.

But with the topic of cross breeding species, obviously you cannot truley compare mammals with insects, but I think of it like a dog, if you have a purebred poodle, and a pure bred beagle (odd example, sub any names you so please, lol). Once the beagle has a litter, assuming they were fertile, you can mate the offspring with pure beagle, and those offspring with another pure beagle, and so on... but the offspring will never actually be a pure beagle again. By doing this in the hobby, we are bypassing thousands, if not millions of years of natural coexsistance and evolution. I am not totally against all this, but in the hands of a hobbyiest I worry, some people are just ill natured, I'd rather let scientist in a controlled enviroment do this and never realse the info so people are discouraged against it, lol. I do understand where you come from though.
 

David Burns

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All dogs are the same species.

I mentioned that I was just refering to arthropods.

If you breed, what was considered to be 2 seperate, species together and you get viable offspring they weren't separate species, so you wont get a 3rd species. You will have taken a step to proving that the belief that they were separate species was wrong. Long held scientific beliefs are being proven wrong all the time.
 

EAD063

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All dogs are the same species.

I mentioned that I was just refering to arthropods.

If you breed, what was considered to be 2 seperate, species together and you get viable offspring they weren't separate species, so you wont get a 3rd species. You will have taken a step to proving that the belief that they were separate species was wrong. Long held scientific beliefs are being proven wrong all the time.
Yes, the dog example was just showing how easily bloodlines can be broken. I realize they are not comparable to anthropods, and was almost certain all dogs were the same species. And yes, I wanted to mention it before but was running short on time that science is always subject to change. I guess I'm losing sight of what your trying to say though?
It has been said that you can produce these hybrid type scorpions, but mostly they are unable to produce sexually fertile offspring. But if they do, they will mess up the pure bloodline of future mates. I understand how you say if two species make viable young then they are not differnt species, but I've not once ever heard that. I do know you can not breed across a genus or family, that would not work, and then what you say would be true, if you tried to crossbreed between two taxonmically differnt genus/family and there are viable young, then yes, the taxonmy is most likely incorrect.... but at the species level??
 

Dom

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David Burns: You should look at what people are doing with snakes. They are hybridizing different GENERA, never mind species. The genus Elaphe (rat snakes) crossed to Lampropletis (king snakes) or Pituophis (bull snakes).
Aspidites ramsyi (Australian woma) X Python regius ( African ball python), P. regius X P. curtus (Malaysian blood python). The list goes on. Some of the inter-generic crosses have proven fertile which of course goes against the popular "wisdom" on this subject.

Goanna: Regardless of your thoughts on hybridization they WILL pollute the captive populations if they are sold or traded out to others. Most serious hobbyists are very much against hybridizing IME.
Personally if I produced hybrids I would euthanize them when my work was done with them and not allow ANY to get into the hobby.
My main point of reference is herps and some species in the hobby are becoming a mess. Just try looking for a pure Indian python (P. m. molurus) or Diamond python. Pure diamonds can be found but you really have to do your homework before you lay your money down (approx. $1,000 usd a baby, $1,500 here in Canada). Angolan pythons (also rare/expensive) are being crossed to balls (P. regius)=be careful of mutts. The same problems are going to occur with many species in the future as the gene pool becomes polluted.

The same thing will start happening with scorps if they can hybridize. The scorp hobby is still young and most species are readily available. In several years this may not be the case. Emps are C.I.T.E.S. appendix 2. In the future if countries decide to stop exports or they are put on Cites appendix 1 they will be impossible to import and we will rely entirely on captive stock. At this point the hobbyist will start to realize the importance of pure stock. You wouldn't want to lay out big bucks for a pair of rare scorps only to find they produced worthless mutt babies as has happened to some snake keepers.
Sorry for the rant but I've seen this happen with snakes and some fish species and it's really sad.
 

David Burns

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Again I was/am talking specifically about arthopods, not reptiles or ....

Your not getting my point, IF 2 different species can Produce viable young then that proves they ARE the SAME species or at least a subspecies. True hybrid scorps are sterile. If the offspring are viable then you have scientifically proven the 2 parents and the young are the same species and the present classification of the parents needs to be changed.

So if you breed a Pandis c. with a Pandis i. and get viable young that means that all 3 were the same species.

If a scientist wants to prove that two like species are different, he breeds them together, if he gets viable offspring he has proven they are not different species.

Again I am not refering to plants, mammals, reptiles, fish, mold, etc.....just arthropods.

Besides that, the more passionately you put down crossbreeding in animals, that can be crossbred, the more some people are going to try. It is the nature of mankind that we want to do what people tell us we can't/shouldn't.
 

EAD063

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I think I got lost when we got off the topic of p imperator breeding with p cavimanus... which are differnt species.
 

Goanna

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Wow this thread got alot of responses.

Keep in mind, I didnt intend to breed these two species. I didnt even know the redclaw was a male. I have seen redclaws and emperors together in shops and at reptile shows, and being they are both about the same size I figured I would try putting them both into one larger tank.

If this does lead to the female becoming gravid again, and I could successfully rear the young, I would probably just keep a couple, maybe give a few to friends who I know have no interest in breeding them, etc. If I did wind up selling them I would be sure to label them as hybrids (or possible hybrids as I am not 100% sure the male is actually a redclaw).

With all this said, I dont think anyone answered my original question about the fighting. Is that normal behavior when new, healthy scorps are introduced to one another?
 

Brian S

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If this does lead to the female becoming gravid again, and I could successfully rear the young, I would probably just keep a couple, maybe give a few to friends who I know have no interest in breeding them, etc. If I did wind up selling them I would be sure to label them as hybrids (or possible hybrids as I am not 100% sure the male is actually a redclaw).
Do keep us informed. I must admit that I am curious to know if yours does have young even though I am against hybridazation.

with all this said, I dont think anyone answered my original question about the fighting. Is that normal behavior when new, healthy scorps are introduced to one another?
Yeah its normal, dont worry about it
 

Dom

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“Besides that, the more passionately you put down crossbreeding in animals, that can be crossbred, the more some people are going to try. It is the nature of mankind that we want to do what people tell us we can't/shouldn't.”

For real!

“If a scientist wants to prove that two like species are different, he breeds them together, if he gets viable offspring he has proven they are not different species.”

That’s what I was taught in school also but I don’t think many people would consider an African ball python and a Malaysian blood python the same species. Or a California kingsnake and a corn snake the same species even though they can be crossed and produce fertile young.

“If this does lead to the female becoming gravid again, and I could successfully rear the young, I would probably just keep a couple, maybe give a few to friends who I know have no interest in breeding them, etc. If I did wind up selling them I would be sure to label them as hybrids”

Trust me if any live specimens leave your house there is a good chance they will enter the gene pool.

Anyway as for your original question I believe Brian answered it.
Good luck with your scorps anyway!
 

Goanna

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“Besides that, the more passionately you put down crossbreeding in animals, that can be crossbred, the more some people are going to try. It is the nature of mankind that we want to do what people tell us we can't/shouldn't.”

For real!

“If a scientist wants to prove that two like species are different, he breeds them together, if he gets viable offspring he has proven they are not different species.”

That’s what I was taught in school also but I don’t think many people would consider an African ball python and a Malaysian blood python the same species. Or a California kingsnake and a corn snake the same species even though they can be crossed and produce fertile young.

“If this does lead to the female becoming gravid again, and I could successfully rear the young, I would probably just keep a couple, maybe give a few to friends who I know have no interest in breeding them, etc. If I did wind up selling them I would be sure to label them as hybrids”

Trust me if any live specimens leave your house there is a good chance they will enter the gene pool.

Anyway as for your original question I believe Brian answered it.
Good luck with your scorps anyway!
Yeah, true. There's always a chance one of my friends would pawn it off to someone else.

Who knows though, if this does result in more offspring, maybe the female will just canabalize them again since she did so the first time around.

Oh, and just an FYI, I dont really have a problem with hybridization of snakes (to some extent, some thing's have been pretty ridiculous though, like scrubs crossed with woma's [all the babies died I beleive], etc). I dont see a problem with the common stuff like Jungle Corns, especially since you can pretty much tell by looking at them that they arent a normal corn or cal king. But with arachnids, and especially this case, I would agree that hybrids arent needed (and as I already noted, this wasnt an intentional breeding).
 

H. cyaneus

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Just wondering if someone over looked this

(or possible hybrids as I am not 100% sure the male is actually a redclaw).
Maybe we should find out if this is actually the breeding of two different species. For all we know it was indeed just a P. imperator and there was no cross breeding. It should be easy to tell, is the scorpion black or more of a brownish color?

Mike
 

Goanna

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Just wondering if someone over looked this



Maybe we should find out if this is actually the breeding of two different species. For all we know it was indeed just a P. imperator and there was no cross breeding. It should be easy to tell, is the scorpion black or more of a brownish color?

Mike
The male is pretty deep black. It does have red coloration on the claws, but previous redclaws I have had in the past definitly looked nicer then this guy, lol.

I'll try and get a pic up later or tommorow. Maybe you all can determine if it actually is a red claw.

Now, I am going to stray off topic a bit here but I figured I'll ask while this thread has alot of attention :D. So, here goes. How exactly do I go about getting a redclaw that looks like this?


Every redclaw I have ever owned or seen just looks like a glorified emperor with red claws of course. Never seen red on the legs or body like in that pic.
 
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