scorp ID

gromgrom

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A friend of mine picked up a pair of these called "yellow thick tail scorpions."

After 30 minutes on google and scorpion fauna, I have no clear answer.

Anyone have any idea? I originally thought hottentotta sp., but I have honestly no clue. They look like a bark scorpion. Thats it.
 
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sfpearl300z

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Looks like a gravid (or subadult, depending on size) Hottentotta trilineatus

Reference pic from my collection:

 

AzJohn

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Looks like a hottentotta to me.

Then again I ususally mess IDs up.
 

gromgrom

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that's what i thought :) something hottentotta. thanks guys!

and shes about 2"-2.5" stretched out.
 

Michiel

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It is one of the app. 25 morphs/variations of H.trilineatus. you particular scorps looks a lot like species as H.arenaceus and the two related species from South Africa, but the latter have a much more bulbous venom vesicle than H.trilineatus.
 

gromgrom

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thanks michiel

and ignore the moist substrate and such, i initially assumed it needed moisture and it was changed immediately.
 

Michiel

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Don't be afraid to spray a small corner of it's enclosure with some water every three weeks or so....
 

Kugellager

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It is one of the app. 25 morphs/variations of H.trilineatus. you particular scorps looks a lot like species as H.arenaceus and the two related species from South Africa, but the latter have a much more bulbous venom vesicle than H.trilineatus.
In addition, H.arenaceus and very closely related H.conspersus have very thin chela compared to H.trilineatus...and most other Hottentotta come to think of it.

See below.





John
];')
 

gromgrom

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heres the pics of the two. girl is the first pic. for some reason, the boy is much darker. could it be that the previous owner had these two hottentotta together and they bred? i dont wanna be spreading around hybrids.

edit: nevermind. saw pics of males with females and males are darker. maybe thats it?
 

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Michiel

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heres the pics of the two. girl is the first pic. for some reason, the boy is much darker. could it be that the previous owner had these two hottentotta together and they bred? i dont wanna be spreading around hybrids.

edit: nevermind. saw pics of males with females and males are darker. maybe thats it?
One of the things making them separate species is that they should not be able to hybridize and have viable offspring. So, no, they should not have been able to interbreed, unless the H.hotttentotta was also a H.trilineatus.
 

gromgrom

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One of the things making them separate species is that they should not be able to hybridize and have viable offspring. So, no, they should not have been able to interbreed, unless the H.hotttentotta was also a H.trilineatus.
then why can tarantulas do it?
prime example: the Avic genus is a mess because of it, as alot of A. Avics show coloration of A. Metallica and other Avic species, as they have either been
A. Hybridizing in the wild
B. Hybridizing in captivity
 

Michiel

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then why can tarantulas do it?
prime example: the Avic genus is a mess because of it, as alot of A. Avics show coloration of A. Metallica and other Avic species, as they have either been
A. Hybridizing in the wild
B. Hybridizing in captivity

Tarantula's are not scorpions ;) Don't compare apples to pears......You are suggesting that Chimps can have sex with Bonobo's, creating Chonobo's. But Bonobo's wouldn't be a separate species if they did.
If my explanation is crappy, say it, and I will try to explain it in a different way.
 

skinheaddave

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Tarantula's are not scorpions ;) Don't compare apples to pears......You are suggesting that Chimps can have sex with Bonobo's, creating Chonobo's. But Bonobo's wouldn't be a separate species if they did.
If my explanation is crappy, say it, and I will try to explain it in a different way.
Your explanation is crappy. :D

With respect to reproductive biology etc. comparing the mating of tarantulas to each other and scorpion to each other is as close to apples and apples as I can think. There are differences, of course, but it seems to me that the nature of the barriers to reproduction, at least as we understand them, are fairly similar. Some degree of mechanical separation (palpal emboli or spermatophore shape), a great deal of behavioural cues (drummming, dancing etc.) + the usual mixture of genetics etc. (poorly studied, so not much out there in the literature).

What you are quoting is the basic "biological species concept" which is just one of the many available species concepts but is a generally quite good one. One key thing that is forgotten is that you should really tack on "in the wild" to the end of any BSC definition. Barriers to reproduction are often geographic, but sympatric species will develop their own separations. So two different species of tarantula in the same area may develop palpal emboli of different lengths that act to prevent hybridization. Now, however, you take two tarantulas from two different areas on earth and all of a sudden the palps may match .. at least roughly sometimes. You have now removed one barrier to reproduction.

The astute biology student will now chime in that two populations separated by geography but otherwise able to reproduce are actually subspecies of the same species. It has been argued (rather well, I think) that subspecies is a sketchy division and that what you really have is two species in the process of divergence. This makes sense based on what we know about evolutionary processes .. most notably genetic drift in this instance but also natural selection and the other usual suspects. That aside you would have a hard time arguing that two populations from different continents are actually just subspecies becuase fertile hybrids have been created.

And fertile hybrids do happen. Remember that nature hasn't read the rule book. There are mechanisms in place that prevent different species from breeding but they are just that -- mechanisms. There are examples aplenty where those mechanisms are bypassed. These examples are present in the wild ... but even more abundant in captivity.

Cheers,
Dave
 

Michiel

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Your explanation is crappy. :D

With respect to reproductive biology etc. comparing the mating of tarantulas to each other and scorpion to each other is as close to apples and apples as I can think. There are differences, of course, but it seems to me that the nature of the barriers to reproduction, at least as we understand them, are fairly similar. Some degree of mechanical separation (palpal emboli or spermatophore shape), a great deal of behavioural cues (drummming, dancing etc.) + the usual mixture of genetics etc. (poorly studied, so not much out there in the literature).

What you are quoting is the basic "biological species concept" which is just one of the many available species concepts but is a generally quite good one. One key thing that is forgotten is that you should really tack on "in the wild" to the end of any BSC definition. Barriers to reproduction are often geographic, but sympatric species will develop their own separations. So two different species of tarantula in the same area may develop palpal emboli of different lengths that act to prevent hybridization. Now, however, you take two tarantulas from two different areas on earth and all of a sudden the palps may match .. at least roughly sometimes. You have now removed one barrier to reproduction.

The astute biology student will now chime in that two populations separated by geography but otherwise able to reproduce are actually subspecies of the same species. It has been argued (rather well, I think) that subspecies is a sketchy division and that what you really have is two species in the process of divergence. This makes sense based on what we know about evolutionary processes .. most notably genetic drift in this instance but also natural selection and the other usual suspects. That aside you would have a hard time arguing that two populations from different continents are actually just subspecies becuase fertile hybrids have been created.

And fertile hybrids do happen. Remember that nature hasn't read the rule book. There are mechanisms in place that prevent different species from breeding but they are just that -- mechanisms. There are examples aplenty where those mechanisms are bypassed. These examples are present in the wild ... but even more abundant in captivity.

Cheers,
Dave

I knew it when I wrote it. :D
Thank you for explaining that Dave and this was very informative.
But to stay on topic: do you think Gromgrom's H.trilineatus mated with H.hottentotta and that he is now spreading hybrids? I don't think so.

I only know tarantula care, and nothing about taxonomy or reproduction, so I'll stick to scorpions.
Hybrids of scorpions in nature and captivity are controversial. Kovarik synonimized T.ythieri with T.magnimanus because he (and co-authors)hybridized these species and this resulted in living hybrids that could reproduce offspring. Lourenco rejects this whole research and conclusions (pers.com). In captivity, Parabuthus transvaalicus was hybridized a couple of years ago with Parabuthus villosus, resulting in P.transvillosus. Later the person who conducted that experiment told on the internet that several things had gone wrong. This is from the top of my head, I don't remember his exact words.

I love nature, because like you aptly stated, nature hasn't read the rule book, it IS the rule book.
 
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gromgrom

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I knew it when I wrote it. :D :rolleyes:
Thank you for explaining that Dave and this was very informative.
But to stay on topic: do you think Gromgrom's H.trilineatus mated with H.hottentotta and that he is now spreading hybrids? I don't think so.

I only know tarantula care, and nothing about taxonomy or reproduction, so I'll stick to scorpions.
Hybrids of scorpions in nature and captivity are controversial. Kovarik synonimized T.ythieri with T.magnimanus because he (and co-authors)hybridized these species and this resulted in living hybrids that could reproduce offspring. Lourenco rejects this whole research and conclusions (pers.com). In captivity, Parabuthus transvaalicus was hybridized a couple of years ago with Parabuthus villosus, resulting in P.transvillosus. Later the person who conducted that experiment told on the internet that several things had gone wrong. This is from the top of my head, I don't remember his exact words.

I love nature, because like you aptly stated, nature hasn't read the rule book, it IS the rule book.
my question was basically, how do A. Avics breed with A. Metallicas, but H. Hottentotta cannot breed with H. Trillineus?... I know both genuses are a mess, but if species with the same genus can interbreed in tarantulas... why not scorpions?
 
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gromgrom

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I'm curious what methods you used to accomplish this?

Cheers,
Dave

i shouldnt have said just "i double checked". If anyone has a better idea, post it. because calling me out isnt doing anything when im not sure myself. like i said, i shouldnt have just said double checked, but if someone knows more about these hottentotta, post something.

edit: http://www.science.marshall.edu/fet/euscorpius/p2007_58.5.pdf

i really think theyre a separate specie now after seeing the pics there.


Hottentotta polystictus??
http://www.abload.de/img/dsc008476act.jpg
i would guess that, but mine have more "dots" rather than stripes.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=139118
show that maybe there is color variation in the different species, or some people have misidentified them.

and some new pictures. it seems they have much different markings. they have also both just eaten so they look gravid/premolt. if theyre a separate specie, i hope one isnt gravid.

first two pics are of what i dubbed the "male". second is "female". im doing my best in research guys, but second opinions, HELPFUL ones, would be nice.
 

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skinheaddave

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because calling me out isnt doing anything when im not sure myself.
That's funny. I specifically DIDN'T post more of an explanation because I wanted to know what more you had considered. I took the default stance that it was a well educated position you had taken and wanted to know how far you had gotten before giving you any direction. The result? I'm taken as "calling you out." This isn't academic challenge. There are no prizes for being right.

This document contains a dichotomous key towards the end. I take it you have not run your specimens through the key? That would be a very good first step towards confirming an ID. If I recall correctly, you will need callipers for parts of the key (available at any auto supply shop). Having a dead specimen helps but it can be done on live specimens if you can immobilize them .. compress them in a ziplock bag or similar. I have more detail on this if you'd like. Finishing the key won't give you a 100% answer without range data .. but it will get you a lot farther than looking at pictures.

Cheers,
Dave
 

gromgrom

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That's funny. I specifically DIDN'T post more of an explanation because I wanted to know what more you had considered. I took the default stance that it was a well educated position you had taken and wanted to know how far you had gotten before giving you any direction. The result? I'm taken as "calling you out." This isn't academic challenge. There are no prizes for being right.
i looked at a few pictures labeled H. trillineus and made an assumption. i always do my research, but apparently i didnt do it thoroughly enough the first time. I apologize.
 
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