scolopendra safe sex experiment

[jebbewocky]

Considering there is proof of many other inter-genera hybrids (tarantulas, plants, ligers, etc.), it seems the burden of proof is on you, saying it isn't possible, considering it is extremely possible for other lifeforms.

 

[SAn]

Considering there is proof of many other inter-genera hybrids (tarantulas, plants, ligers, etc.), it seems the burden of proof is on you, saying it isn't possible, considering it is extremely possible for other lifeforms.

That still means nothing until the moment someone passes hard proof down the table. (ofc we are talking about nature hybrids not man-made ones).

Plus saying i should prove blue aliens do not exist because 1 billion people believe they do, is quite ridiculous

 

[jebbewocky]

That still means nothing until the moment someone passes hard proof down the table. (ofc we are talking about nature hybrids not man-made ones).

Plus saying i should prove blue aliens do not exist because 1 billion people believe they do, is quite ridiculous

What do hybrids in nature have to do with an attempt at captive crossbreeding at all?

 

[zonbonzovi]

I'm sure there are quite a few threads on centipede hybridization- go find them. That isn't the intent of this thread. Read carefully, please.

Back to the "gate": there is a plasti-coated steel mesh available at some hardware stores that has perfectly sized diameter(in several sizes) holes for your purposes, szappan.

 

[SAn]

What do hybrids in nature have to do with an attempt at capitive crossbreeding at all?

When i said man-made i was reffering to dna-injections, lab experiments etc. Not captive crossbreed. (that cant happen with all we know)

Anyway sorry for the mini hijack, shouldnt really happen because i find this construction completely unuseful and without point now that pedes can be sexed, but there may be others who see something special. (at least i am honest)

 

[szappan]

Back to the "gate": there is a plasti-coated steel mesh available at some hardware stores that has perfectly sized diameter(in several sizes) holes for your purposes, szappan.

Hey zonbonzovi! Thank you for the advice but I'm not actively pursuing this experiment at this time. Even these photos and videos were from last summer and fall. (I've got another MUCH BIGGER sports based project on the go at the moment.) I may however make another attempt this summer if the galapagoensis molts successfully - so the dream is far from over! ... actually, I thought of another mini-experiment just today so who knows?

As far as a mesh goes, I'm not sure how successful that would be. I think that after seeing the centipedes interact with this barrier horizontal bars would work best. Even with a screen that is fairly wide, they would have to poke their antenna through at the same spot from either side. So they might have an even harder time finding each other... and their antenna motions would be reduced as well :?

Then again, just buying a mesh would be much less work...

Anyway sorry for the mini hijack, shouldnt really happen because i find this construction completely unuseful and without point now that pedes can be sexed, but there may be others who see something special. (at least i am honest)

OK, where in my original post did I write that I was attempting to determine the sex my centipedes? I actually thought I made it quite clear that I was almost positive of their sexes.

To summarize the goals of this experiment:

Primary goal: attempt to induce sexual behavior in a male scolopendra without putting either specimen at physical risk

*** In reality, this was BY FAR the main goal of this whole thing, if anything else was to happen then it'd just be bonus. Think of what it could mean for this hobby if anyone comes up with a safe way to reproduce these giants! ***

Secondary goal: see if female scolopendra will pick up sperm sack

Tertiary goal: see if female would produce viable eggs from another species


COULD this barrier be used to sex a scolopendra, yes, potentially, but there are much more efficient ways as we both know.


Regarding any cross-breeding - btw, is it possible to hijack ones own thread?

I think it's entirely possible. There are plenty of examples of different species producing offspring, though the offspring themselves are mostly infertile.

It's not even necessary for the two species to have the same number of chromosomes. I found a report online where researchers had found that sc. sub. mutilans had 28 chromosomes and sc. sub. japonica had 18 so odds are that sc. alternans and sc. galapagoensis also have different numbers. But this does not mean that they cannot reproduce!

Look at something like the Zebroid - its parents have a much wider discrepancy of chromosomes (horse - 64, zebra - 32 / 44) but zebroids exist!

This hobby is relatively small and due to the volatile nature of centipedes, many would not even risk trying. So I would say that just because no one has done it yet, that doesn't mean that it's not possible.

 

[Crysta]

As far as a mesh goes, I'm not sure how successful that would be. I think that after seeing the centipedes interact with this barrier horizontal bars would work best. Even with a screen that is fairly wide, they would have to poke their antenna through at the same spot from either side. So they might have an even harder time finding each other... and their antenna motions would be reduced as well :?

Then again, just buying a mesh would be much less work...

From what I understand in the bottom post, there seems to have been a cover in this description below.

Both giganteas were at the top of their terrariums and quickly tapping antenna and biting at the bars. Obviously my thought was "oh no you don't, I'm not going to have you two kill each other."

And then, much to my surprise, the dark morph gigantea, climbed down to the bottom of it's terrarium, spun a web and deposited a small white mass into the center of it.

Had I known then what I know now, I would have removed the male from it's terrarium and placed the "female" (?) in there to see if it would pick up the sack. Instead I just stood there in stunned silence wondering what the 'heck' was going on.

So...it wouldn't really matter if the bars were horizontal, or mesh?

 

[thebugfreak]

Good lord!, that's a lot of work, ..and I think I'm doing good to get out of bed and take a shower:razz: Those big S amer pedes run $1000 here in the US when they pop upcool: ...nooooooot). I can't get over that alternans. I think they are kind of like heros when it comes to "size". Most are 5 to 6 inches but every once in a while there is a giant. I personally wonder if there is a gene for being very large that expresses itself in individuals sometimes. Some would say the heros crosses aren't really a result of cross breeding, but maybe more like breeding a white cat with a brown one? Hmm, I don't know, do we really know 100%. I'd love to see you or anybody else get some babies from those S. american monsters, only seen one or two posts of babies. I haven't looked at your links yet, took a real long time to load them. I love that black pede:drool:

in humans, its called acromegaly when the body releases too much growth hormones. its ok if the release of growth hormones exceed a little bit, but if its too much, then it become harmful and people can die from it if its not treated.

so im gessing its similar to that of any pede if it grows bigger than normal: too much growth hormones released. it can be a good thing if it dosent go over the top. then that will cause problems.

 

[Galapoheros]

I'm familiar with that one, but isn't that a "disease"? My speculation is that there maybe be an old gene floating around in the species that it is not a mutation, not a disease and not a hormone problem. But possibly a gene that is usually dormant that used to express itself pretty often, possibly 100s of 1000s of years ago. Might it still be there(?), but only popping up and showing itself very infrequently now? If the world changes in a big way, maybe the gene for "being big" will express itself more again, favoring the bigger pedes more than smaller ones over the centuries and the larger size will be the norm for some pede species. haha, speculation at best ...or at best a guess:razz:

 

[thebugfreak]

I'm familiar with that one, but isn't that a "disease"? My speculation is that there maybe be an old gene floating around in the species that it is not a mutation, not a disease and not a hormone problem. But possibly a gene that is usually dormant that used to express itself pretty often, possibly 100s of 1000s of years ago. Might it still be there(?), but only popping up and showing itself very infrequently now? If the world changes in a big way, maybe the gene for "being big" will express itself more again, favoring the bigger pedes more than smaller ones over the centuries and the larger size will be the norm for some pede species. haha, speculation at best ...or at best a guess:razz:

well, growth is not controlled by a single allele in the genes. growth is a polygenetic inheritance. so size is governed by more than one set of alleles. thats why there are a diverse range of sizes in animals and humans. so im not sure if there is a single gene that basically codes for being gigantic.

in my opinion, i think its when there was too much growth hormones were produced, but again, its just my theory and i can be completely off.

 

[SAn]

OK, where in my original post did I write that I was attempting to determine the sex my centipedes? I actually thought I made it quite clear that I was almost positive of their sexes.


Primary goal: attempt to induce sexual behavior in a male scolopendra without putting either specimen at physical risk

*** In reality, this was BY FAR the main goal of this whole thing, if anything else was to happen then it'd just be bonus. Think of what it could mean for this hobby if anyone comes up with a safe way to reproduce these giants! ***

I think it's entirely possible. There are plenty of examples of different species producing offspring, though the offspring themselves are mostly infertile.

It's not even necessary for the two species to have the same number of chromosomes. I found a report online where researchers had found that sc. sub. mutilans had 28 chromosomes and sc. sub. japonica had 18 so odds are that sc. alternans and sc. galapagoensis also have different numbers. But this does not mean that they cannot reproduce!

This hobby is relatively small and due to the volatile nature of centipedes, many would not even risk trying. So I would say that just because no one has done it yet, that doesn't mean that it's not possible.

First off there is no such thing as almost positive, i know it first hand. Especially in centipedes.
When pedes mate usually the female follows the male around the cage tapping with her antennas the male's terminal legs. I cant see how this would happen, but anyway. Did you succeed? For something to be used and be considered succesful you have to have more than a remote mating, but a repeat at least. Ofc you could say yeah i did it 20 times but because i had tried something like that in the past (not as good as yours) i can say it was a failure. I think Steven had tried a similar construction but i dont know if it worked for him either.
But hell, people may like it and find it convenient i just express my opinion.

Now about chromosomes you are so keen on. First off its obvious you did not read that paper-report about the s.mutilans and s.japonica .
Secondly dna analysis and chromosomes is not everything.
Pigs and humans are close in c numbers(hell we use parts of them in operations) but ever seen a pigman? If it was remotely possible it would exist. Morphology plays a role too. And other factors ofcourse.
Also do not assume anything about dna studies on alternans and galapagoensis if you dont have one.

Point is just because it happen to some doesnt mean it can happen to all. Do not Generalize when it comes to things like that.

 

[JC]

First off there is no such thing as almost positive, i know it first hand. Especially in centipedes.

You might be right(maybe), but you can't disprove a negative, so you lose by default.

 

[Draiman]

Do not Generalize when it comes to things like that.

Yet you make the sweeping, general (and stupid) statement that all centipedes are unable to hybridise?

Your pig-and-man analogy is incredibly flawed. So you're saying that pigs are more closely related to humans than centipede species within the same genus are related to one another? You're saying that, just because humans cannot hybridise with other mammals - which are nowhere near closely related to us - centipedes should also be unable to hybridise? I would think that most, if not all species within the genus Scolopendra are most likely much more closely related to one another, than humans are to chimpanzees.

 

[SAn]

Yet you make the sweeping, general (and stupid) statement that all centipedes are unable to hybridise?

Your pig-and-man analogy is incredibly flawed. So you're saying that pigs are more closely related to humans than centipede species within the same genus are related to one another? You're saying that, just because humans cannot hybridise with other mammals - which are nowhere near closely related to us - centipedes should also be unable to hybridise? I would think that most, if not all species within the genus Scolopendra are most likely much more closely related to one another, than humans are to chimpanzees.

I make the statement because i believe in proof only.
As for the pig analogy i know its flawed. But i made it in regard to the chromosome analysis alone. To show chromosomes mean nothing on their own. Sometime you will learn to read properly and not take lone sentences to make an argument that pleases you.
Do you find it possible to have a natural dolphin-man hybrid? They are both mammals wow!
Saying it could happen doesnt mean it can. I say chickens can fly. They got wings.

 

[Draiman]

Do you find it possible to have a natural dolphin-man hybrid? They are both mammals wow!

Wow. You didn't learn, did you?

I think you need to ask yourself a couple of questions:

1) Are dolphins and humans closely related?
2) Are the various species within the genus Scolopendra more closely related to one another, than dolphins are to humans?

 

[SAn]

Wow. You didn't learn, did you?

I think you need to ask yourself a couple of questions:

1) Are dolphins and humans closely related?
2) Are the various species within the genus Scolopendra more closely related to one another, than dolphins are to humans?

Cant you read? Seriously. My point is based on chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes,

to explain to szappan they mean nothing on their own, but you need to take into account other things like morphology. OMG! READ.
man has many similarities in dna with pigs or even dolphins but that means nothing.
On you questions i cant see where you going. Yes they are related as they are mammals.
About the scolopendra species. Some are realted and have subspecies which can mate and some are NOT. Alternans has no ring forrow for example where other pedes have. Or spines or antennomeres, or whatever. That enough difference in morphology. They are the same genus but not the same in other characteristics.
I ll draw it next time.

 

[Draiman]

Cant you read? Seriously. My point is based on chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes,

to explain to szappan they mean nothing on their own, but you need to take into account other things like morphology. OMG! READ.
man has many similarities in dna with pigs or even dolphins but that means nothing.
On you questions i cant see where you going. Yes they are related as they are mammals.
About the scolopendra species. Some are realted and have subspecies which can mate and some are NOT. Alternans has no ring forrow for example where other pedes have. Or spines or antennomeres, lenght or whatever. That enough difference in morphology. They are the same genus but not the same in other characteristics.
I ll draw it next time.

I'm not talking to you with regards to szappan's comments about chromosome numbers. I'm talking about your insistence that Scolopendra species cannot hybridise, and your use of very flawed analogies, such as "humans and pigs/dolphins cannot hybridise, so why do you think centipedes can?"

Just because of the absence or presence of certain taxonomic characters, you assume two separate species cannot hybridise? There are many taxonomic characters that differentiate Brachypelma vagans from Brachypelma albopilosum, yet the two species readily hybridise and produce young. There are many taxonomic characters that prove lions are a different species from tigers, yet the two species readily interbreed. There are many taxonomic characters that differentiate African zebras from the domestic donkey, yet they readily hybridise. Taxonomic/morphological characters can define and differentiate a species from another species, but they do not necessarily mean the two species cannot hybridise. Just because alternans lacks a ringfurrow, it cannot hybridise with gigantea? What about the numerous taxonomic differences between lions and tigers, such as skull structure and etc? Why can they hybridise?

 

[SAn]

I thought i said that because some species can, not all can.
In regards to that matter so you can be happy, i am pretty sure i expressed my opinion that they can't because we have no documented cases so far and no evidence that it can happen in contrast to spiders etc. (ofc there has been very little research in centipedes in all aspects) I am a guy that believes in hard evidence not in theories. You can believe whatever you want in that prospect.

 

[JC]

Seriously guys, Draiman and SAn, cut it out and grow up. You guys have derailed this thread far enough. One of the few good threads in the Myriapods section and you can't contain your egos to post something that could have been settled over PMS and ruin it for everyone else. Its not even a scientific debate anymore, looks more like an elementry school quarrel.

 

[Draiman]

I thought i said that because some species can, not all can.
In regards to that matter so you can be happy, i am pretty sure i expressed my opinion that they can't because we have no documented cases so far and no evidence that it can happen in contrast to spiders etc. (ofc there has been very little research in centipedes in all aspects) I am a guy that believes in hard evidence not in theories. You can believe whatever you want in that prospect.

Yeah, so we have no evidence for either side of the argument; but nevertheless hybridisation is well documented in so many other animals. All anyone can say at this point is, "I/we don't know", and not make a statement like this:

the point is it cant happen with pedes. And there is no such example in nature or captivity. Only different colorforms