S Subspinipes Venom?

WhyUBiteBite

Arachnosquire
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Feb 14, 2017
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104
Hey all,

So theoretically on a healthy 2 year old would a bite be fatal from a 6" pede? I ask because of a personal issue where I had a nightmare where it somehow got out of its triple locked enclosure and bit my 2 year old and we could basically do nothing but hold him while he screamed, luckily my wife woke me before the dreams conclusion but it was real enough its had me thinking of cutting it from my collection despite her protests I'm giving in to fear. Without going into too much background I have an issue of PTSD from my time in the Army specifically when it comes to children being wounded/hurt or in this case killed etc. Sorry for the personal info dump but I cant seem to get it out of my head and I figured maybe asking for opinions on here would give me the final answer I was looking for. I guess my biggest fear stems from the fact of all the creatures in my collection it is the only one that has an actual fatality linked to its species.
 

basin79

ArachnoGod
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Sep 14, 2013
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Hey all,

So theoretically on a healthy 2 year old would a bite be fatal from a 6" pede? I ask because of a personal issue where I had a nightmare where it somehow got out of its triple locked enclosure and bit my 2 year old and we could basically do nothing but hold him while he screamed, luckily my wife woke me before the dreams conclusion but it was real enough its had me thinking of cutting it from my collection despite her protests I'm giving in to fear. Without going into too much background I have an issue of PTSD from my time in the Army specifically when it comes to children being wounded/hurt or in this case killed etc. Sorry for the personal info dump but I cant seem to get it out of my head and I figured maybe asking for opinions on here would give me the final answer I was looking for. I guess my biggest fear stems from the fact of all the creatures in my collection it is the only one that has an actual fatality linked to its species.
Scolopendra subspinipes are the only centipede to have a death attributed to it. Apparently a pede bit a young girls head and she died a day later. To be honest I've not read enough into scolopendra venom.

That typed I do know I don't want to take a hit off the 2 scolopendra I have. If a Scolopendra subspinipes bites and gives it their all I think you'll be in a world of hurt.
 

WhyUBiteBite

Arachnosquire
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Feb 14, 2017
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104
World of hurt yes, but fatal is my main concern. I know this thread probably sounds silly to some but since that dream its been on my mind alot, though I still have no idea how it would break containment its the possibility that it might somehow and if there is a chance of a fatal incident over it I'll probably end up selling him despite how interesting of a creature he is.
 

RTTB

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Dec 4, 2016
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Tall vertical acrylic enclosures are the way to go imo. No seam sealant for them to climb. The lock on top design is an added bonus. You can do deep substrate and just allow the distance from the top of the substrate to the top of the enclosure to exceed the total length of the centipede. The book on centipedes suggests tall vertical enclosures like this. Not as aesthetically pleasing but gives peace of mind. A company on eBay called Loxar or Lexar sells these.
 

Andrea82

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@Staehilomyces is very knowledgeable on centipedes, I'm sure he has a answer :)
PTSD sucks, to say the least, but I think there is nothing 'irrational' about your worries imo. The trigger maybe was, but the concern definitely isn't. You are a worrying parent, there is nothing wrong with that. :)
 

Python

Arachnolord
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Mar 21, 2005
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I've been bitten by one of these several years ago. It got me three times on my back if I remember correctly. I posted a bite report on here shortly after it happened. Long story short, it was most likely a dry bite but it stayed swollen for 6 months or so and it itched uncontrollably for a long time. That said, there wasn't much pain, mostly a muscle tightness that was at best uncomfortable. That only lasted a short while though. I've had several different species and never had an escape.

Due to the nature of the issue in this case, I would say sell it. I only say that because even if it was just a dream, what has been seen cannot be unseen and you will likely always worry about this animal. Besides, there are plenty of interesting species that won't cause you this anguish. Enough so that you don't need the worry in your life.
 

mickiem

Arachnoprince
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Jul 23, 2016
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Having an interesting pet is not more important than soothing the concerns you've mentioned.

There are many other interesting pets out there. The likelihood of something happening is with this one is slight but there is always that what if.
 

Crowbawt

Arachnopeon
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Aug 20, 2016
Messages
43
I have chronic nightmares to the point of needing medication as well as some other stuff like generalized anxiety etc, I have had similar terrible dreams about a large pet centipede killing my cat and the horrible, lingering feeling of guilt after waking up. I had my heart deadset on getting a large Heros for the longest time but this has almost completely put me off it, despite having no issues or escapes with my smaller pedes...

Anyway I don't want to seem presumptuous or that my experience is comparable to yours, but wanted to say that those kind of worries can really eat at you and kind of get stuck in a loop with no stop, so if you'd have better peace of mind not having a potentially dangerous pede I don't think it's at all unreasonable to sell it. Not "giving into fear," just making things a little easier on yourself with a minor change, and you could get another subspinipes when your child is older too. That's my opinion anyway.
 

Staehilomyces

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If you are really worried, then do what you wish, but remember that the chances of the pede escaping, let alone biting your child, is extremely slim. As for venom, yes, Dehaani is widely regarded as the most venomous of centipedes in the pet trade. However, there is an unknown Scolopendra sp. from Malaysia/Riau, nicknamed the Malaysian tiger or Riau giant, that is even more venomous.
@Andrea82 I am flattered, but seeing as I'm in Australia, and only 16 years old, know that none of this is coming from experience. The only pede bite I've copped was from an Ethmostigmus rubripes. However, I do my best to repeat only what I know are facts.
 

WhyUBiteBite

Arachnosquire
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Feb 14, 2017
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104
Are there any that are less potent that while it would no doubt hurt would not have the potential for lethality? I'm fairly new to pedes and keep more Ts than anything but the one I have now really fascinated me with how it moved. That said I've been thinking maybe if I extend the locking pins even more for my own comfort it may give me enough peace of mind to hold onto him, not sure. I guess what worries me the most is combined with my dream hes also one of the more volatile creatures I've owned.

Edit: Hes in an enclosure that has a longer than he is to the top setup and is an acrylic cube with a hinge, locked with a luggage padlock and two security pins in either corner. Vents are a grid pattern with about 1/8" holes, probably less to be honest.
 

Staehilomyces

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Most pedes are less potent. Much less potent as a matter of fact.

Scolopendra polymorpha: weak/mediocre venom
Scolopendra angulata: weak venom, almost impossible to aggrovate
Scolopendra gigantea: massive, but weak venom
Scolopendra heros: potent, but nowhere near S.dehaani
Scolopendra morsitans: jumpy, aggressive, but weak/mediocre venom
Scolopendra alternans: not usually aggressive, but has a potent venom
Ethmostigmus trignopodus: docile, weak venom (yellow leg variant is more aggressive and venomous)
Ethmostigmus rubripes: aggressive, fairly potent venom
Cormocephalus sp: weak venom, usually docile
Rhysida sp: weak venom, skittish, practically harmless
 

Andrea82

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Most pedes are less potent. Much less potent as a matter of fact.

Scolopendra polymorpha: weak/mediocre venom
Scolopendra angulata: weak venom, almost impossible to aggrovate
Scolopendra gigantea: massive, but weak venom
Scolopendra heros: potent, but nowhere near S.dehaani
Scolopendra morsitans: jumpy, aggressive, but weak/mediocre venom
Scolopendra alternans: not usually aggressive, but has a potent venom
Ethmostigmus trignopodus: docile, weak venom (yellow leg variant is more aggressive and venomous)
Ethmostigmus rubripes: aggressive, fairly potent venom
Cormocephalus sp: weak venom, usually docile
Rhysida sp: weak venom, skittish, practically harmless
Your age doesn't matter, your knowledge does ;). Like the info above :)
 

keks

Arachnobaron
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May 7, 2017
Messages
517
What means "less potent" compared to the venom of tarantulas? (I hope, this sentence is correct and you know what I mean :bag:). I can't imagine at all, HOW venomous they are.
 

Staehilomyces

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Just search Scolopendra subspinipes bite report. As a side note, most, if not all, of the reports labelling S. subspinipes are actually referring to S. dehaani. The actual Subspinipes isn't as bad, but is still pretty potent.
 

LeFanDesBugs

Arachnobaron
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Mar 14, 2015
Messages
568
Glad to know we have young members on AB, other than me of course (I'm 15 x) )
Staehilomyces, congrats, you seem really knowledgeable.. I completely agree with what you stated above.. I would also add S.cingulata which has a very weak venom from what I've read. I never handled nor got tagged by mine.. they are quite jumpy though
Overall, it's safe to assume that most asian centipedes are quite potent. Whyubitebite, keep in mind that the 7yo girl was bitten on the head, and she perhaps had an allergic reaction. But a 2yo's immune system would struggle with that kind of venom anyway.. you should really consider getting another species! Maybe S.mirabilis, which is a good display pede? I don't really know what "style" of centipede you want.. or maybe an E.trigonopodus indeed
 

Crowbawt

Arachnopeon
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Aug 20, 2016
Messages
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If you are able to find a E. Trigonopodus for sale, they can get pretty large like a subspinipes but with much less potent venom, so I'm seconding that recommendation. I personally love Polymorpha but they're significantly smaller and less "impressive."
 

styrafoamcow

Arachnopeon
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Sep 3, 2015
Messages
32
Apparently no one has ever died from centipede bite. I looked it up not to long ago and every reported death attributed to a centipede was a hoax including the one about the girl who got bit on the head. Although no one has ever been killed by a centipede bite I think an if a 2 year old were bit by a dehaani, subspinipes, heros and a couple other species I believe there is a high chance of it being fatal. In my home there is a 2 year old but I don't have any fear of my centipedes escaping. If I was scared of one escaping I would get a new enclosure for it that I knew for a fact it couldn't escape
 

DubiaW

Arachnobaron
Joined
Jan 10, 2017
Messages
471
WhyU
Hey all,

So theoretically on a healthy 2 year old would a bite be fatal from a 6" pede? I ask because of a personal issue where I had a nightmare where it somehow got out of its triple locked enclosure and bit my 2 year old and we could basically do nothing but hold him while he screamed, luckily my wife woke me before the dreams conclusion but it was real enough its had me thinking of cutting it from my collection despite her protests I'm giving in to fear. Without going into too much background I have an issue of PTSD from my time in the Army specifically when it comes to children being wounded/hurt or in this case killed etc. Sorry for the personal info dump but I cant seem to get it out of my head and I figured maybe asking for opinions on here would give me the final answer I was looking for. I guess my biggest fear stems from the fact of all the creatures in my collection it is the only one that has an actual fatality linked to its species.
I am new to centipedes but I am diving in head first. I used to work with rattlesnakes. From what I have read about the recorded incident of a young girl dying from a S. subspinipes (S. dehaani) bite it is very likely not a true account or there were other factors involved that weren't understood. It is unlikely that a bite from this species can kill a child except in a very severe case. The most dangerous symptoms is severe swelling, (bite reports have included stories of swelling of the entire arm). The pain is what actually scares me about this species.

I have personally experienced a bite from a Sidewinder Rattlesnake Crotalus cerastes and have used that to relate to other people who have been bitten by both Scolopendra and rattlesnakes. One case was a full grown man that I know who was bitten by both S. heros and Crotauls atrox (diamondback rattlesnake) at different times in his life. He had an anaphylactic reaction to a very mild dry rattlesnake bite. He described the pain that he experienced from S. heros as worse than a mild rattlesnake bite and said that opioid pain killers didn't work. The bite that he got from S. heros was obviously sever and atypical. I know another full grown man who has been frequently bitten by S. heros, but also one S. dahaani bite and one rattlesnake bite. He described his experiences (he didn't mention the species of rattlesnake but did say that it was a severe bite). He described S. heros bites as mild (he may have immunity because of the frequency of the bites). He was bitten by S. dehaani after I met him and he described it as excruciating pain, hyperventilation and panic for eight hours followed by swelling, and itching that lasted almost a week. He says he will never handle another S. dehaani. When asked him to compare it to the pain of a severe rattlesnake bite he said that it was almost as bad except it had a shorter duration.

Other bite reports on Arachnaboards for S. dehaani have described totally inconsistent symptoms from the same species (which is typical of all bite reports). One report in particular comes to mind (the report by Mastigoproctus): http://arachnoboards.com/threads/scolopendra-subspinipes.278180/. He describes being envenomated by the same S. dehaani on two different occasions. One time he got a mild dry bite and the second time the same animal gave him a severe bite. He also describes panic inducing pain and said he would rather have multiple bones broken at the same time before being bitten by S. dehaani again. This is not a very scientific way of trying to gauge how much pain a bite can cause but weighing this against my own personal rattlesnake bite experience I kind of know what to expect in a worst case scenario and what panic inducing pain feels like.

Here is my opinion: Not all bites are the same, even from the same animal. Even bites from very dangerous snakes are all over the scale ranging from no symptoms all the way to death (90% of rattlesnake bites are dry bites with very few symptoms). Orin NcMonigle can't discount claims of excruciating bites as exaggerations because he was bitten once and it wasn't that bad (as he does in his book). In the event of a serious envenomation from S. dehaani the pain is going to be excruciating to the point of panic according to actual victims. Opioid pain killers are not effective against the pain (according to medical reports). The good news is that Novocain is effective against the pain if the effected area is small enough. Luckily serious bites don't seem to be the norm with this species.

Hearing someone say that a bite from S. dehaani was almost as painful as a severe rattlesnake bite should be a fair warning to anyone who handles their S. dehaani for entertainment purposes. A severe rattlesnake bite is the worst imaginable pain I can describe. It felt similar to an intense muscle cramp but 10 times worse and it felt like my skin was burning off the effected area at the same time. Within 30 minutes of being bitten the pain was far beyond imagination and it actually got worse over the hours of the night.

If you are worried about your two year old and having nightmares it is absolutely understandable if you chose another less dangerous species. That being said, I have a two year old and a five year old that I would never risk subjecting them to that kind of pain and I have eight S. dehaani for a breeding project. It is very unlikely that they will escape, I check on my specimens every day. In the event that they escape it is unlikely that they will get to my kids and last but not least a typical bite is not a severe bite. Most bites are dry. We actually live in the desert and find Rattlesnakes in the aloe plants outside pretty often so my centipedes are the least of my worries.

It sounds like your cage is very secure and if it can only escape when you open it you will always be in control.
 

Staehilomyces

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Yeah. The envenomation I copped from my Ethmostigmus rubripes was also a mild "test" bite. I was pretty inexperienced at handling centipedes back then, and have never come close to being envenomated ever again after that experience. I know from what other people have said that E. rubripes can be MUCH worse than my experience, so I guess I'm just lucky that my one mistake only resulted in a weak envenomation.
 
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