Regarding recent Phoneutria for sale in USA

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Fran

Arachnoprince
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Don't misquote me, I'm interested in opinions, just not the pontifications of a megalomaniac.
:confused:

And people like you are the ones who are gonna keep this specie...:rolleyes:
Scary. But hey, go ahead, just dont live around me.If you get a good bite and turn into a 95 yeard old man inside a 30 year old body,(if you make it) I dont give a flying..
 

KenTheBugGuy

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I do

If Rick's stock is legit and you double-checked it- great. That *should* be the practice. My warning is for people to fail to question certain stock. I have talked to several customers in recent months that bought questionable stock on classifieds boards from sellers that are not importers and they didn't buy the stock from importers.

My recommendation for hobbyists is to trust your known, established importers for stock and not buy something rare on the net for cheap and never question A) How did the seller obtain it. and B) Why is a rare species priced so cheap? (Hmm....maybe because there was no import costs/overhead????).

Say NO to "brown-boxing" sellers and help self-regulate our hobby/trade.
I do have to agree with this! It is important to know that yoru species are being brought to you legally. Brown boxing hurts all of us.
 

Philth

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If Rick's stock is legit and you double-checked it- great. That *should* be the practice. My warning is for people to fail to question certain stock. I have talked to several customers in recent months that bought questionable stock on classifieds boards from sellers that are not importers and they didn't buy the stock from importers.

My recommendation for hobbyists is to trust your known, established importers for stock and not buy something rare on the net for cheap and never question A) How did the seller obtain it. and B) Why is a rare species priced so cheap? (Hmm....maybe because there was no import costs/overhead????).

Say NO to "brown-boxing" sellers and help self-regulate our hobby/trade.
Hi Todd, do you question your suppliers selling spiders from countries like Brazil, Costa Rica, ect...? You might of obtained them legally but for sure most of them made it into the hobby illegally. That makes it OK? Don't get me wrong, Im not saying "brown boxing" anything is okay by any means. Just curious on your thoughts?

I keep lots of fast defensive tarantulas here but after working with huntsman there speed is more of a joke to me now!
-Chris
I couldn't agree with this more. Anybody considering keeping Phoneutria should try some of the other similar less harmless spiders to get an idea of how fast these things are. It definitely changed my feelings about ever owning a Phoneutria. In 15+ years I've been bit once. And it was by a Huntsman that landed on my thumb in a blink of an eye.

Anybody claiming they have never had an escape , either hasn't owned enough spiders , or hasn't been keeping long enough, in my opinion. It eventually happens to everyone. As I said in my last post , Im not picking sides on whether or not they should be sold or not. I agree with Ken that they will inevitable become more commonly available as the hobby grows.


Anyways , great topic.
Later, Tom
 

burmish101

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My main concern with this species as well as other supper fast huntsmans spiders is escape during transfer. I was thinking of a plastic tub with petroleum jelly on the sides as a back up incase the little guy tries to get out.


JOhn
Just use another of the same type of container its in and set it on top of the cage then slide the lid off, prod it on leg #3 through the airholes with a thin piece of wire to get it to move up to the new container then slide a thin piece of plexi in between the two cages, provided it isnt in its hide, but can work if the hide is lightweight and easy to flip over. For upsizing caging place cage #1 into a bigger cage #2 loosen lid of cage one before you set it in then work through the holes as before, wait for the spider to get to its new hide before removing the old cage. Bare welding electrodes make nice prods, bendable and sturdy of different diameters.

For me with slings I use vials then they go into beanie baby containers, then to 5 gallon aquariums after they outgrow those. Also, I dont use this method with 90% of my t's as its time consuming, but you will always have plastic between you and the bug with no chance for it to escape during xfers.

Hoping the explanation made sense, it would be 1000x easier to explain if I had a camera to record video of the procedure lol.

Also: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83797&page=2 for more info on P. boliviensis.

"P. boliviensis is not known to have ever killed a human being. Due to statements from Dr. Günter Schmidt in a newspaper interview it´s even unlikely of being capable to kill even a very small child. Quite interesting…"
 
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fantasticp

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.

I hope to god legislation is passed on this and luckily I am politically involved locally and I will be pushing for this to be shut down.
Why do such things need to be legislated out of existence? Every dangerous situation does not need to be "solved" by the government. If you don't want any spiders, don't buy any. Here's a few new law suggestions of my own to protect people from themselves and others:

1) ALL soap must be on a rope. No liquid soap or shampoo. Too many shower slipping deaths especially among the elderly. Failure to comply will result in fines and loss of shower priviliges.

2) Large rubber bumpers all the way around a car like a bumper car. That will reduce damage in low speed collisions which are the majority of collisions.

3)No seatless bicycles. It's just wierd and you might hurt yourself......Oh wait we already had that one in California and repealed it this year.

..and from the "my neighbor might have it" perspective, are you also on a crusade against black mold? Because I am sure more people end up in the hospital from a neighboring apartment's unclean and black moldy bathroom spreading spores into their apartment and lungs then will ever be hurt from a neighbor's pet spider.

Some of us don't want to live in a bubble and are quite content to live with the consequences of our lifestyle and actions. Isn't that what being an adult is about?

What rights? Funny I went to law school and I don't recall the mention of an unalienable right to breed extremely dangerous animals. Maybe it's one of the lost bill of rights.
Well maybe you missed that our country's law is based on common law, as in activities, items, substances are acceptable unless forbidden, not forbidden unless expressly legislated as legal.

To Fran:

Unfortunately the world is full of fools. Not to give ideas but what if someone decide to put one ina packet and send it to someone , that someone opens the package thinking there are "Ferrero Rocher" , get bitten and die?
What if thanks to your stupidity the spider get loose and I get bitten?
Completely irrelevent. What if I put a bomb in a box. Oh wait, that's attempted murder. Don't we already have a law to cover that? If we enforce laws we do have, we don't need new ones.


No worries Ken, I think a certain importer is just grumpy that he was not in the loop for that shipment.
Quote of the day. Todd, I really wish you weren't so quick to spread conjecture sometimes.
 

ErikWestblom

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in case you were wondering, 10 / 7000 is about .0015% of bites resulting in death.
this is from a museum's "spider myths" site that i linked, but if that doesn't seem reliable this information is all over the place giving the same statistics.

i already said i'd agree to disagree on the subject, just thought if people were going to continue this debate, this information should be included.
If you are going to include information, please get the maths right. 10 / 7000 is about 0.15%, as in 1.5 people out of a thousand. That's a hundred times the numbers you're giving
 

Ammo87

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These things come in on banana shippments alot !!!!! Give it a rest if you dont want them dont buy them, plain and simple !!!! Lets start a panic and maybe they will stop all shippments of all these extremely dangerous tarantulas we all have !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

John Apple

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again WOW
they are here now...yeah now and they are an amazing spider, albeit a very dangerous one with insane speed [huntsman like it has been said]...I am sure they are not gonna go away, well maybe this batch will, but future ones will arrive and it could be the worst of the 3-5sp [depending one who is talking]...so my proposal is this...instead of pointing fingers on how they got here and who should or shouldn't have them...heh or as said get involved in legislation because of blind ignorance and fear...or do a lotta chest thumping because of phallic envy....lets work with the ones being distributed, if they are...and take some real observations on the husbandry of these spiders and share a wealth of information that can be obtained
 
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Fran

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Why do such things need to be legislated out of existence? Every dangerous situation does not need to be "solved" by the government. If you don't want any spiders, don't buy any. Here's a few new law suggestions of my own to protect people from themselves and others:

1) ALL soap must be on a rope. No liquid soap or shampoo. Too many shower slipping deaths especially among the elderly. Failure to comply will result in fines and loss of shower priviliges.

2) Large rubber bumpers all the way around a car like a bumper car. That will reduce damage in low speed collisions which are the majority of collisions.

3)No seatless bicycles. It's just wierd and you might hurt yourself......Oh wait we already had that one in California and repealed it this year.

.
That makes absolutely no sense. Sorry.
..and from the "my neighbor might have it" perspective, are you also on a crusade against black mold? Because I am sure more people end up in the hospital from a neighboring apartment's unclean and black moldy bathroom spreading spores into their apartment and lungs then will ever be hurt from a neighbor's pet spider.

Some of us don't want to live in a bubble and are quite content to live with the consequences of our lifestyle and actions. Isn't that what being an adult is about?


.
So with your method of reasoning why to take precautions.
Im sure you drive drunk and leave your door unlocked at night.
Hey we are gonna die anyway right? Lets just provoke it.
To Fran:



Completely irrelevent. What if I put a bomb in a box. Oh wait, that's attempted murder. Don't we already have a law to cover that? If we enforce laws we do have, we don't need new ones.
This DEFINITELY takes the cake. We all know is iqually easy to buy a bomb than to buy a Phoneutria. o_O

Hmm...Your post didnt quite work,try again ;).
 
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AzJohn

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again WOW
they are here now...yeah now and they are an amazing spider, albeit a very dangerous one with insane speed [huntsman like it has been said]...I am sure they are not gonna go away, well maybe this batch will, but future ones will arrive and it could be the worst of the 3-5sp [depending one who is talking]...so my proposal is this...instead of pointing fingers on how they got here and who should or shouldn't have them...heh or as said get involved in legislation because of blind ignorance and fear...or do a lotta chest thumping because of phallic envy....lets work with the ones being distributed, if they are...and take some real observations on the husbandry of these spiders and share a wealth of information that can be obtained

Hi John,
This thread has degenerated. I tried tossing in a slow pitch about rehousing to see if we could get away from brown boxing and name calling. Some debate should be made about who is quallified to keep this genus. However it has turned into a name calling thread. How many times have we seen the only reply to a comment being "that's stupid". Like anyone thinks that will change opinons. It really is a shame. Like you said this spiecies is here. Shouldn't we be looking at it's housing needs and care requirments and learning what we can. So that when it does become more avaiable in the US there are people who have some idea and expoerience about how to keep them safely. Sorry, I'm getting carried away.

John
 

John Apple

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John
I do understand tempers flare and the chest thumping ensues...no problem there ....now lets focus on the genus as a whole and I am sure most of the folk posting here will never get the chance no matters how hard they try to raise one of these beautiful beasties,,,:D just basing that on the context of their posts...hell some folk here have me wondering why they would even raise a goldfish:?:cool:
 

AzJohn

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John
I do understand tempers flare and the chest thumping ensues...no problem there ....now lets focus on the genus as a whole and I am sure most of the folk posting here will never get the chance no matters how hard they try to raise one of these beautiful beasties,,,:D just basing that on the context of their posts...hell some folk here have me wondering why they would even raise a goldfish:?:cool:

If you get them one pleae post your experiences. I just started with true spiders. I have a few orange huntsmen. I tried to collect one of the dessert species out where my folks live. They are pretty hard to get off of a rock. If it's a big rock and your trying to hold it up and catch it at the same time. pretty much inpossible.


John
 

John Apple

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hey John..use the cup and slide method or have like a 50 dram and put it over the huntsman and after a bit of disturbing they usually go in and then cap it
 

AzJohn

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hey John..use the cup and slide method or have like a 50 dram and put it over the huntsman and after a bit of disturbing they usually go in and then cap it

I tried that. The problem was the rock. It was about 40lbs and resting on my leg while I was trying to cup the little guy. Plus it wasn't very smooth and it kept getting away. I did find the remains of mom from the previous summer. That was pretty impressive. She must have had a body at least 2". I wish I had gotten to little one. I'll try again this spring and summer. I have no idea what species it was.

John
 

Venom

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What rights? Funny I went to law school and I don't recall the mention of an unalienable right to breed extremely dangerous animals. Maybe it's one of the lost bill of rights.
Isn't this just the heart of the matter? Now, I can tell already, that you are a liberal, and you have a particular approach to the Constitution, but let me tell you what the position of this hobby is, since you don't seem to know:

Keeping, breeding, and enjoying highly toxic animals, in the privacy of one's home, falls under the "pursuit of happiness" clause. We have the right to enjoy whatever pursuits we find satisfying, which do not adversely affect those around us. If someone wants ( stupidly) to enjoy skydiving, white-water kayaking, base-jumping, polar bear hugging or rattlesnake juggling--THAT IS THEIR OWN BUSINESS!!!! Neither you, nor the government have ANY right to criticize or regulate that private pursuit of happiness.

Secondly, the keeping of venomous invertebrates is WORLDS away from the hazards of keeping venomous snakes. Honestly, it is. And perhaps you do not understand that because you have never actually kept a spider in captivity, but here is the skinny: INVERTEBRATES ARE EASY TO CONTAIN, and: MOST EXOTIC, TOXIC SPECIES ARE HIGHLY FRAGILE, AND CLIMATE-SENSITIVE!!! An escaped tarantula is a tarantula on death-row, generally speaking. A Phoneutria could not survive in 90% of the climates of North America.

We have something called "winter" here, and even the native H. venatoria, L. reclusa and L.deserta ( let alone the Namibian/ Chilean Sicarius and Amazonian Phoneutria ) cannot venture very far north in this continent. If L. deserta cannot survive outside the desert, do you think a Sicarius spp. could survive in, say, Ohio, or Missouri, or some other non-desert state? Or, lets consider for a moment. Does Arizona have a winter? Why...yes it does, and that desert can be quite frigid in fact. Could you say that for the Kalahari and Namib deserts? What about the Atacama--it hardly even sees the freezing point, whereas Arizona gets SNOW in the desert). These exotic spiders from exotic environments do NOT directly transfer to the environments of North America. You cannot make the argument that they would survive here.

Thirdly, the reason Phonetria is under discussion here, is that it has the distinction of being perhaps the only exotic toxic species which can climb glass. Every single scorpion we have, from wherever we got it, CANNOT climb out of its enclosure. Same for Sicarius if properly kept and housed. Phoneutria climbs glass like a tarantula: easily, and that does make it a special item of concern. But please, keep your paranoia under control here--we're talking about a spider, not a contagion. Unlike an exotic disease, an escaped Phoneutria will NEVER breed in this country. Even if it did, I can tell you that even in ideal, controlled breeding-lab conditions, the mortality rate of this species' young is appalling--they are one of the trickiest, most fragile animals we have when it comes to captive rearing the young. These are NOT a threat for becoming established in any climate of North America--yes, even Florida.

And finally, NO true hobbyist--no matter what you call yourself--would ever push for regulation on our hobby. The world is paranoid about spiders and creepy-crawlies, and things that go "bump" in the night. Pushing for legislation will NEVER achieve a good result, because the reaction of the public, and of demagogue politicians, will always be to blanket-ban, without learning ANYTHING about these animals, their ecology, or the dynamics and inherent, INTRINSIC safety mechanisms of this hobby. You will never pass yourself off as a member of this community if you spout "I'm going to get you regulated for your safety and everyone else's" NONSENSE, because this is pure, unadulterated IGNORANCE. YOU, yes, you sir, are this paranoid public. You do not understand our hobby, and you do not understand these animals. Keep your nose out of our business, until you are ready to learn the ropes, keep a few inverts for yourself, and learn just how safe we all really are!

Something you might want to consider is this FACT: in the 35+ years of the tarantula/ invert hobby, and with all the hundreds of thousands of specimens kept by tens of thousands of keepers, we have NEVER had a recorded incident of a non-hobbyist being bitten by a hobbyist's animal. EVER. I do know this for a fact, because this is my special area of expertise and study. I have read more bite reports online than most people even know exist. I study this topic of venomous invertebrates: their toxinology ( which is different than toxicology ), ecology, behaviour, distribution, identification and morphology, and all issues relating to the keeping, distributing, and practicing proper safety around these animals. I KNOW what I am talking about, and everyone here knows it.

So as I have said, the Constitution gives us the right to keep these animals, the animals we have are intrinsically easy to contain, these animals are fragile and will NOT present an invasive species threat (we maintain ARTIFICIAL climates in their enclosures!), the track record of the hobby is IMMACULATE with regard to public safety. If you feel you must jump into regulatory mode and send Uncle Sam to clamp down on us, then you are 1: ignorant, and 2: totally disregarding the rights of Americans to do what satisfies them and does not affect others. As I've shown, this hobby does NOT present a public risk; it is you who simply does not understand this, because like the general, ignorant public, you have a totally reactionary response to seeing venomous animals kept by responsible people.

This hobby is safe. But jumping to legal conclusions about what you do not understand is HIGHLY DANGEROUS to the liberty of this nation's citizens. Only those who understand a society have the right to legislate/ regulate it--which is why we have representative government. You do not represent us, because you are not one of us. You therefore have no basis for taking legal action which concerns us--you are ignorant of the safe nature of this hobby. If this kind of "You scare me, so I'm going to regulate you" trend continues, then any sector of private activity could become regulated by OUTSIDERS who do not understand it! You are trampling on individual American liberty, and as a lawyer, you should understand that this is the BASIS of our nation. I hope some of this gets through to you.
 

Moltar

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Wow. Nicely put Venom.

Funny how this elvasco character signed up basically to argue in this thread. He's also made blanket assumptions about our hobby based on this discussion of what is more or less the most extreme invert currently available to the hobby (well, sort of available).

I guess he made a better example of the societal problems our hobby faces than he intended...
 

Venom

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And for the record,

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with this hobby keeping Phoneutria species. The hobby is self-regulating: our members know what is out of their league, and self-restrict themselves from getting out of their depth. Everyone here knows the hobby could easily and suddenly come under fire from paranoid legal-jerks, so we practice the utmost degree of caution VOLUNTARILY.

Personally, I have no problem with Phoneutria, and I would gladly keep them myself if I had time, cash, and no aspirations to having wife and family. My personal take is that I wouldn't keep them and have children also--but that is MY interpretation, and I don't think it should be forced on anyone legally.

Phoneutria is toxic, but not nearly as much as its reputation suggests. As has been said here: the fatality rate is notable but not anything near that of the Atrax/ Hadronyche funnelwebs. This spider is not the doomsday creature it's made out to be. It IS fast, it CAN be very defensive, and it's probably the most mobile/ agile creature we have. Seriously, we have far, far more toxic animals already in our possession: LQ, Andros, Sicarius...even some Tityus and Latrodectus species have higher actual fatality rates than Phoneutria. The main difference is the size, mobility, and defensiveness of this species, which makes it easier to get bitten by--but the danger of the actual bite is not as dire as the hype suggests. Kept by the experienced, Phoneutria is just another animal we have that requires special cautionary treatment. We don't need to ban it, we shouldn't take it off our dealer's lists--it's not THAT different from what we have already.

Our hobbyists simply need to know what they can, and cannot safely keep, and elect to avoid this species until they have experience with other similar but safe animals ( Cupiennius, and the other Ctenid/ Sparassids for instance ). So..stop freaking out everyone!!
 

KenTheBugGuy

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Wow. Nicely put Venom.

Funny how this elvasco character signed up basically to argue in this thread. He's also made blanket assumptions about our hobby based on this discussion of what is more or less the most extreme invert currently available to the hobby (well, sort of available).

I guess he made a better example of the societal problems our hobby faces than he intended...

The funny part was he asked me about buying them and I had told him no. Seems like that should have been a good sign that they were not getting out or maybe that just upset him that I told him no.....who knows.
 
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