Regarding recent Phoneutria for sale in USA

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xenesthis

Arachnobaron
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Clarification on some things

First, my comments were not directed at Ken. He is making sure medically significant animals don't end up in the wrong hands best he can. I understand he is selling Rick's stock. My point was a reminder for everybody that visited AB's classifieds NOT to think all the stock for sale is legal. In recent years, there is several people getting mailed boxes of animals from Europe illegally. They have been posting on AB and other sites. There are some hobbyists that have bought this stock. Some were innocent and didn't question the legal orgin of the stock. Others knew they were brown-boxed in illegally, but bought the stock anyway and some of those indivduals have participated in it as well. I know who imports what legally and who has the import licenses, so when I see rare species for sale on these classifieds sites, I know who brown-boxed what in and who legally imported it.

Some of you might have gotten a "cheap" deal by buying this stock, but this has got to stop. USFWS is conducting active investigations right now on this big problem in our trade. They know who the culprits are. If you buy this illegal stock, you are guilty too and can lose the animals and be fined for buying the stock that was smuggled into the country. California seems to be the main place were several people have been doing these for a few years. My general warning is for potential buyers to question certain stock's legal origins. We need to self-regulate our hobby. If we fail to do so, we will have it regulated for us.

As for the debate on Phoneutria, I have sold species from that genus in the last 15 years, but I sell them to education/scientific researchers or advanced hobbyists which tend to be in the scientific field. They are a very dangerous group of spiders that are not for the mainstream hobby. The news media would have a field day when somebody gets bit by one of these and big brother will be quick to close down our trade/hobby quickly in turn. So,to sum things up, my post was not to put Ken in a bad light. He is doing the right thing. My post was to remind potential buyers to question and even demand proof that animals were imported legally and the seller can prove this. We need to regulate our hobby better. The Feds will do it for us if we fail to do a better job on these internet classified boards. I've seen a lot of stuff recently posted on these classifieds that were not imported legally.

Todd
 

sharpfang

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see, that's the thing... i've had a suntiger (rather convenient that you said that species heh) of just about that size, maybe even a bit smaller give me a good little bite. it's the only tarantula that has ever bitten me, in fact. it was just a super quick bite, but i got a raised red area and it itched a bit.
am i claiming i absolutely know what is likely to happen, or even possible? no way... but i can present all kinds of precedents and other kinds of "second degree evidence" that makes me think i have a point that at least bears further considering
You R Not DEAD!!!! :clap: That is a Releif. I did Not wish such on U, sincerely.
I felt a little "sting" from your response 2 my Post.....Which CLEARLY showed U Respect......Yours 2 mine....Clearly did NOT. I have read many of your posts....and have spoken breifly w/ U, in the past.....respect your Experience.
And in our Suntiger comparisons.....Mine CLEARLY had NO Effect! a 1" sling COULD, possibly Envenomate! A 2nd Instar...
{which is what I Originaly stated}...I Don't think so.......Maybe it could....I just disagree, Respectfully.

Jason My hat is off to you for the can of raid....:worship:
some measures taken by some folk would be called cruel...but an effort like this can and will help in the case of an excape....there are other ways I am sure but this is straight and to the point...imo
Thank U John :worship: I have some Pokies now....and would rather B safer-than-sorrier. In a household w/ children, I arguably, should Not even have.....
I'd rather kill my P. Metallica F{if felt No immediate other way} then let travel possibly, into kids Bedroom! This whole thread has me re-thinking......and like Ken said: that is a good thing for us All in Hobby. I am Not perfekt :D
I "feel" that I am FAIR & Responsible however. TY - Jason
 
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xhexdx

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I didn't see any disrespect in cacoseraph's post. Someone's skin is a little too thin, methinks.
 
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KenTheBugGuy

Arachnodemon
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thanks

First, my comments were not directed at Ken. He is making sure medically significant animals don't end up in the wrong hands best he can. I understand he is selling Rick's stock. My point was a reminder for everybody that visited AB's classifieds NOT to think all the stock for sale is legal. In recent years, there is several people getting mailed boxes of animals from Europe illegally. They have been posting on AB and other sites. There are some hobbyists that have bought this stock. Some were innocent and didn't question the legal orgin of the stock. Others knew they were brown-boxed in illegally, but bought the stock anyway and some of those indivduals have participated in it as well. I know who imports what legally and who has the import licenses, so when I see rare species for sale on these classifieds sites, I know who brown-boxed what in and who legally imported it.

Some of you might have gotten a "cheap" deal by buying this stock, but this has got to stop. USFWS is conducting active investigations right now on this big problem in our trade. They know who the culprits are. If you buy this illegal stock, you are guilty too and can lose the animals and be fined for buying the stock that was smuggled into the country. California seems to be the main place were several people have been doing these for a few years. My general warning is for potential buyers to question certain stock's legal origins. We need to self-regulate our hobby. If we fail to do so, we will have it regulated for us.

As for the debate on Phoneutria, I have sold species from that genus in the last 15 years, but I sell them to education/scientific researchers or advanced hobbyists which tend to be in the scientific field. They are a very dangerous group of spiders that are not for the mainstream hobby. The news media would have a field day when somebody gets bit by one of these and big brother will be quick to close down our trade/hobby quickly in turn. So,to sum things up, my post was not to put Ken in a bad light. He is doing the right thing. My post was to remind potential buyers to question and even demand proof that animals were imported legally and the seller can prove this. We need to regulate our hobby better. The Feds will do it for us if we fail to do a better job on these internet classified boards. I've seen a lot of stuff recently posted on these classifieds that were not imported legally.

Todd

Thanks for that Todd was a little baffled :)
 

cacoseraph

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Opinions asside here I want to know something....how many of you folk have a can of raid in you vert room to blast any excapee you can't catch....well I do and it goes with me to the bathroom tub when I have to maintain the huntsman and other 'fast' beasties...
Kind of funny it hangs on my vert wall like a fire extinguisher, have not had to use it yet:cool:
i used passive poison water traps. by product of my ant defenses. i would be extremely leery of discharging a aerosolized insecticide in my bug room. aren't you concerned about over spray and residues? depending on what the specific active ingredients are you could mess up breeding females even without actually killing anything
 

xenesthis

Arachnobaron
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legit

If Rick's stock is legit and you double-checked it- great. That *should* be the practice. My warning is for people to fail to question certain stock. I have talked to several customers in recent months that bought questionable stock on classifieds boards from sellers that are not importers and they didn't buy the stock from importers.

My recommendation for hobbyists is to trust your known, established importers for stock and not buy something rare on the net for cheap and never question A) How did the seller obtain it. and B) Why is a rare species priced so cheap? (Hmm....maybe because there was no import costs/overhead????).

Say NO to "brown-boxing" sellers and help self-regulate our hobby/trade.
 

cacoseraph

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I didn't see any disrespect in cacoseraph's post. Someone's skin is a little too thin, methinks.s
boldmine
which is what i am saying is dangerous! hehehehe



i wasn't trying to be mean, but i don't always bother to candy coat stuff. the fact of the matter is we are arguing about the ability to penetrate something that is what... 10,000's of atoms thick? maybe 100,000's? animal cell walls are so thin it almost doesn't make sense to argue about can they be penetrated by a macroscopically visible fang. did you know there are bugs that are so small they actually feed on intracellular fluids?


the real things to discuss is amounts of venom, etc


or even better.... how to avoid having accidents as a real possibility
 

AzJohn

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I guess we have a difference of opinion about a what is an accident. To me an accident is somthing I have no control over. Can someone tell me a realistic situation in which an invert got lose that could not have been prevented had the keeper made better choices. I'm not trying to be holier than thow, trust me. I've had an escape or two during my years in the hobby. Every one of those instances could have been prevented had I made better choices. That's one reason I haven't yet kept Phoneutria. That being said, I see no reason that someone with more experience shouldn't be allowed to keep them. Just because I might not be ready doesn't mean others should be jugded by my inability.

As for as my comparisions. They seem perfectly valid to me. Lets look at pokies. They are fast. They can send a grown man to the hospital on ocasion. They can climb glass. They can be aggressive and unpredictable. Sounds a lot like phoneutria to me. I'm not saying that phoneutria are not more dangerous, but to a three year old, I'm sure we're just splitting hairs. Plus I don't see many threads with people holding the phoneutria. So it seems to me that a pokies is way more likely to tag a kid than a phoneutria. Feel free to disagree with me. But just saying I'm wrong just because I must be isn't going to change my mind. Claiming their is no comparision when I've shown you one isn't going to either. :)


John
 

AzJohn

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"Brazilian Wandering Spiders (aranhas armadeiras), Phoneutria nigriventer, P. keyserlingi and P. fera, are sometimes said to have the world's most toxic spider venom – probably based on a well publicized study where mice were killed by intravenous injection of as little as 0.006 mg of venom. Since I'm a man, not a mouse, that doesn't worry me much. Authoritative sources state that over 7,000 authentic cases of human bites from these spiders have been recorded, with only around 10 known deaths, and about 2% of cases serious enough to need antivenom. So despite the surprisingly large number of bites, this spider is not exactly public enemy number one either."

http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/spidermyth/myths/downunder.html

in case you were wondering, 10 / 7000 is about .0015% of bites resulting in death.
this is from a museum's "spider myths" site that i linked, but if that doesn't seem reliable this information is all over the place giving the same statistics.

i already said i'd agree to disagree on the subject, just thought if people were going to continue this debate, this information should be included.

Thanks for the insight.


John
 

cacoseraph

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I guess we have a difference of opinion about a what is an accident. To me an accident is somthing I have no control over. Can someone tell me a realistic situation in which an invert got lose that could not have been prevented had the keeper made better choices.
glass cases in earthquake territory


i joke you not, that is a VERY real part of my caging solution plans for my more high powered bugs. ALL, full stop no exception, were kept in high impact resistance plastic containers without enough mass in them to reasonably get enough fall energy to crack them open without also killing the bug inside. that is a low level kill safe solution. i kept moderate tityus in such things


that being said, just about anywhere in the USA can have earthquakes strong enough to knock a cage off of a shelf, even in the middle of the continent. granted, center plate earthquakes are much more rare, but they *do* happen. so am i to understand everyone else also happens to keep ALL their hots in impact resistant plastic? cuz i did
 

AzJohn

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glass cases in earthquake territory


i joke you not, that is a VERY real part of my caging solution plans for my more high powered bugs. ALL, full stop no exception, were kept in high impact resistance plastic containers without enough mass in them to reasonably get enough fall energy to crack them open without also killing the bug inside. that is a low level kill safe solution. i kept moderate tityus in such things
Don't use glass use plasitc. You have the right idea. My entire collection is in plasic. The choice to use glass in an earthquake zone isn't the best idea. Keeping phoneutria in a glass case wouldn't be advisable period.


John
 

cacoseraph

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see, i think that is the kind of thing that a keeping thread should cover!


ppl should accept that some ppl WILL keep them. our best bet is to educate all the hobbyist to minimize the chance of bad things happening




As for as my comparisions. They seem perfectly valid to me. Lets look at pokies. They are fast. They can send a grown man to the hospital on ocasion. They can climb glass. They can be aggressive and unpredictable. Sounds a lot like phoneutria to me. I'm not saying that phoneutria are not more dangerous, but to a three year old, I'm sure we're just splitting hairs. Plus I don't see many threads with people holding the phoneutria. So it seems to me that a pokies is way more likely to tag a kid than a phoneutria. Feel free to disagree with me. But just saying I'm wrong just because I must be isn't going to change my mind. Claiming their is no comparision when I've shown you one isn't going to either. :)


John
well,
phoneutria babies are approximately 1% the size of equivalent instar poeci...
phoneutria venom is what, 10x more potent, roughly...
phoneutria produce about 10x more babies per eggsac
phoneutria produce 3-5 eggsacs per mating
phoneutria are faster, call it 2x as quick
also, i suspect that ctenids have better aerobic ability than tarantulas. theraphosids are... primitive spiders and ctenids are the new fast. i don't have direct proof of that, but their breathing systems *do* differ and i reckon the ctenids have the better system :)


so by my reckoning, phoneutria deserve something like 100,000x the respect a poeci does.... but other than that, i guess they are pretty similar =P


and i gotta laugh, i had an unid'ed chinese hunstman a while back that was the spider that taught me what fast was. no tarantula is really all that fast ;)





@Pambix
the real threat isn't death for an adult, it is permanent or long term disability. and whatever that figure is, it is almost certainly under reporting the actual incidence. i reckon most ppl that die from pho bites don't make it to a hospital to get tabulated in the statistics heh

and considering the number of recorded deaths per hundred thousand bites in tarantulas still hovers at.... zero. another way comparing them to tarantulas is just a sick joke
 

John Apple

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i used passive poison water traps. by product of my ant defenses. i would be extremely leery of discharging a aerosolized insecticide in my bug room. aren't you concerned about over spray and residues? depending on what the specific active ingredients are you could mess up breeding females even without actually killing anything
hey Andrew it is a directional stream I also have a bleach sprayer for an after afffect and a lime water sprayer as a neutraliser....and if an excape happens and I can't catch it and I lose another vert...from an over spray...well so be it, I would rather lose 2 or 3 than have an excape no matter what it is...I keep my snakes in the same room and treat any mites they have with diatomaceous earth....doesn't leach over to the verts

responsibility

hey Todd I would like to know what verts are illegal or that I should not have....shoot me a pm on this please
 

AzJohn

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Hi cacoseraph,

Great points about the size of the babies. IF, and a big IF, I ever bred them I don't think I'd open the babies container untill at leats 3/4 of them were gone due to canabalism. Who needs 1000 babies anyways. 20 would be good. They should be larger and more managable at that point.

As far as the venom and speed. To me, it's really fast vs really, really fast. Either way I'm to slow to get out of the way if it wants to go up my arm. With venom it's a nasty bite vs a really nasty bite. I probably won't die but I could end up in the either way.

Like you said phoneutria deserves way more respect than a pokie does. Keeping them should require a basic understanding that the species shouldn't be treated as a pet.
 
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ArachnoYak

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If you are not whiling to listen to opinions, why are you a member of an internet board to begin with. :rolleyes:

Dont listen, I couldnt care less.
Don't misquote me, I'm interested in opinions, just not the pontifications of a megalomaniac.
 

Noexcuse4you

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First, my comments were not directed at Ken. He is making sure medically significant animals don't end up in the wrong hands best he can. I understand he is selling Rick's stock. My point was a reminder for everybody that visited AB's classifieds NOT to think all the stock for sale is legal.
So,to sum things up, my post was not to put Ken in a bad light. He is doing the right thing.

Todd
No, you're wrong. By posting in this thread you are accusing Ken of brown boxing. Unless there's someone else selling Phoneutria. :? Nice try, Todd.
 

Bigboy

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If Rick's stock is legit and you double-checked it- great. That *should* be the practice. My warning is for people to fail to question certain stock. I have talked to several customers in recent months that bought questionable stock on classifieds boards from sellers that are not importers and they didn't buy the stock from importers.

My recommendation for hobbyists is to trust your known, established importers for stock and not buy something rare on the net for cheap and never question A) How did the seller obtain it. and B) Why is a rare species priced so cheap? (Hmm....maybe because there was no import costs/overhead????).

Say NO to "brown-boxing" sellers and help self-regulate our hobby/trade.
That seems to be asking a bit much. You can't exactly regulate something based solely on good intentions. People buy what they want and they are especially pleased if it is cheap. If it is rare they are going to buy it as soon as possible before someone else does.

Please keep in mind that regardless of if an animal was imported legally that is not to say that it was obtained legally to begin with. Do you check with all the people who export to you to make sure that all of their stock comes in from authorized collectors and breeders, or do you simply order from them what they have? How does a person buying from you even know for certain that an animal was not poached, stolen, or smuggled out of its country of origin to the exporter who sold it to you? Really in the end it is you being assured by them that everything was done legally and people have to take your word as well. When does something become brown boxing? What about if the animal is sold three or four times?

Certainly, supporting brown boxing isn't the best choice from a domestic standpoint, but to have such a narrow view of what is right or wrong with the pet trade, well maybe there is something wrong with that.

Good on you for obtaining the permits and paying the fees to continue to be able to obtain for the US hobby inverts and exotics from abroad. Not many people are willing to put in the effort to keep up a small business like that, but this does not make you the morality police Todd.

That is my rant, it is also the last time I will post in this thread. Rest assured of that, I'm far too annoyed by much of what I've read here to continue following the thread.
 

AzJohn

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My main concern with this species as well as other supper fast huntsmans spiders is escape during transfer. I was thinking of a plastic tub with petroleum jelly on the sides as a back up incase the little guy tries to get out.


JOhn
 

jbm150

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I guess we have a difference of opinion about a what is an accident. To me an accident is somthing I have no control over. Can someone tell me a realistic situation in which an invert got lose that could not have been prevented had the keeper made better choices. I'm not trying to be holier than thow, trust me. I've had an escape or two during my years in the hobby. Every one of those instances could have been prevented had I made better choices. That's one reason I haven't yet kept Phoneutria. That being said, I see no reason that someone with more experience shouldn't be allowed to keep them. Just because I might not be ready doesn't mean others should be jugded by my inability.

As for as my comparisions. They seem perfectly valid to me. Lets look at pokies. They are fast. They can send a grown man to the hospital on ocasion. They can climb glass. They can be aggressive and unpredictable. Sounds a lot like phoneutria to me. I'm not saying that phoneutria are not more dangerous, but to a three year old, I'm sure we're just splitting hairs. Plus I don't see many threads with people holding the phoneutria. So it seems to me that a pokies is way more likely to tag a kid than a phoneutria. Feel free to disagree with me. But just saying I'm wrong just because I must be isn't going to change my mind. Claiming their is no comparision when I've shown you one isn't going to either. :)


John
Following this thread has been interesting. These spiders are such a hot divider.

John, there are a million scenarios that could create an accidental release, no matter how safe you are with their keeping. Natural disasters such as earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, a freakin' tree falls on your house, etc. Human caused as well. A burglar could break into your house, accidentally or purposely get into them, and steal or release...just to screw with you. Cuz they do that. You might stick your hand/tongs/brush into the tank to do some maintenance, the spider may react negatively, you jerk your hand to avoid a bite (remember, this spider has killed), and the tank tips off the edge to the ground. A drunk driver falls asleep and crashes into your invert room. None of these will probably ever happen to you. Or to me. But they do happen. They're accidents. I've been drinking coffee all my life and I dropped my coffee pot and shattered it all over the floor.

But I'm not against people having them, IF they're the right type of people. There are a few people here on the boards I would trust to keep them but more than plenty who I wouldn't. Myself one of them. You might very well be capable of it...but I'm not sure about that. That you keep thinking of them in pokie standards, doesn't fill me with hope on that. Your child example: yeah, the kid would be injured badly by a pokie bite. Chances are, that kid would die from a Phoneutria bite.

The European hobby seems more advanced then us, perhaps they've been at it longer. And like Caco has said, their climate is not nearly as accomodating to these spiders as ours is. Thats one of my biggest concerns, yet ANOTHER non-native taking root in Florida and elsewhere. And a dangerous one at that.

The exotics hobby is an EASY thing to argue against. Importing animals out of one country into another, especially dangerous ones, to be kept by non-professional hobbyists is just not a logical idea. Its an easy one for some judge or court to shut down if pushed.
 

AzJohn

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Following this thread has been interesting. These spiders are such a hot divider.

John, there are a million scenarios that could create an accidental release, no matter how safe you are with their keeping. Natural disasters such as earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, a freakin' tree falls on your house, etc. Human caused as well. A burglar could break into your house, accidentally or purposely get into them, and steal or release...just to screw with you. Cuz they do that. You might stick your hand/tongs/brush into the tank to do some maintenance, the spider may react negatively, you jerk your hand to avoid a bite (remember, this spider has killed), and the tank tips off the edge to the ground. A drunk driver falls asleep and crashes into your invert room. None of these will probably ever happen to you. Or to me. But they do happen. They're accidents. I've been drinking coffee all my life and I dropped my coffee pot and shattered it all over the floor.

But I'm not against people having them, IF they're the right type of people. There are a few people here on the boards I would trust to keep them but more than plenty who I wouldn't. Myself one of them. You might very well be capable of it...but I'm not sure about that. That you keep thinking of them in pokie standards, doesn't fill me with hope on that. Your child example: yeah, the kid would be injured badly by a pokie bite. Chances are, that kid would die from a Phoneutria bite.

The European hobby seems more advanced then us, perhaps they've been at it longer. And like Caco has said, their climate is not nearly as accomodating to these spiders as ours is. Thats one of my biggest concerns, yet ANOTHER non-native taking root in Florida and elsewhere. And a dangerous one at that.

The exotics hobby is an EASY thing to argue against. Importing animals out of one country into another, especially dangerous ones, to be kept by non-professional hobbyists is just not a logical idea. Its an easy one for some judge or court to shut down if pushed.

Outstanding post. Do I think I'm ready for these spiders? I've past on the opprotunity to purchase them once, not this batch. I'd probably do it again. I'm possitve I wouldn't wish to breed them even though it goes against everything I believe about keeping inverts. I'm certain I could keep them but as you said they are not pokies. To me it's not worth the risk at this time.

As far as accidents are concerned. The vast majority of escapes can be traced to keeper error. A cage can be set up to minimize the keeper exposure to danger. Useing hard plastics with a good secure lid should make dropping the container much less dangerous. Having multiple places with witch to access your cage should allow for more safety in cleaning. you could even use petroleum jelly on part of your tongs to keep them from climbing up. You could even do all of your matainance, feeding, ect inside a large rubber container with well greased sides.That way if it does escape it couldn't get out of the larger enclosure, unless it can climb petroleum jelly. I do something similar with my scorpions.

My comparision with pokies is really a way to get people to think about what they are saying. Why would you complain about this spider when you keep somthing that can be dangerous in it's own right. It's like owning a hand gun and complaining about your neighbors shotgun. A gun is a gun. Sure one isn't as dangerous as the other but both can mess you up. I find it illogical that people who keep venomous inverts would be so against somthing new being available to addanced hobbiest. I know what my scorpions can do to me. So I find it a bit silly for me to say an expert keeper can not keep somthing like this. Again, why should my inabillity keep someone from keeping this species.

Thanks
John
 
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