Regarding recent Phoneutria for sale in USA

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sharpfang

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I'm a Wanderer, yeah...a Wanderer, I roam around,around,around,around,around

There are roughly 3000 active members of this board. You proclaimed yourself a 1%...
1% of 3000 is 30.
So there are only 30 meticulous and responsible keepers. 30 outta 3000 that double check lids and make sure doors are closed and locked.
Kudos to us 30. ;):D
I don't think Fran meant it exactly like that......But, I am one of the 30! :D
I STILL, would Never {Not generalizing} own one of these. And I will do Dbl. takes on bananas I buy now :rolleyes:

wow. This topic was beaten to a pulp.
I have read through the thread and found reputable dealers and keepers picking and choosing sides.

In the end, the keeping of these is a private matter.

And lastly, when it comes down to it, no matter how much experience you have, or how meticulous your keeping is, a mistake is a mistake, and it can happen to me just as much as the best keeper in the hobby.

OR
I am NOT choosing sides {and resent suggestion}......except 4 the side of:
As long as it does Not hurt me/family/environment, go ahead, natural selection. Your last part supports Concern, more Concern I "feel" waranted, then the "HYBRID" debate :rolleyes: I am sure there are Many responsible 2 Own. I will Not though, by choice.

this whole thread is a joke
there is no reasonable similarities in potential danger between Phoneutria and tarantulas, scorpions, centipedes, etc.
5) is large enough to inject quite a bit of venom
6) and on top of all that, it might actually be one of the very few bugs that does have a bite first and ask questions later policy. normally aggression is not a great survival selected choice... but for an r-selected with king venom it makes a certain amount of sense. the individual might die... but for the greater good of the species
You can find bugs in the hobby currently that have some of those traits, but afaik, NOT ALL OF THEM... and THAT is where the potential for catastrophe lies!

jellyfish barbs are way smaller the 2i pho fangs... and they work just fine!

further, i reckon there are large parts of CA, TX, FL, AL, etc that pho could colonize rather handily.
I appreciate your opinion and reasoning.....I do disagree w/ your Jellyfish Comment though..... Different physical means of "stinging" your flesh. And I don't think a 2nd Instar can Pierce epidermis enough. You make some Good points though.

I do Not want 2 criticise members on this topic.....I would Not want 2 have
one of these spiders "Wander" onto my property......And that is Not likely 2 happen.....So what concern I have, is 4 others ;) - Jason
 
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xhexdx

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There are so many things to address in this thread, regarding some of the more idiotic things people have said, but instead I'll just include some quotes from posts that deserve being read at least a second time (if not more).

Well besides being extremely fast , another major differance is they can climb smooth surfaces. This makes them much harder to deal with than any deadly scorpion in my opinion.

As well when they have babies theres hundreds of tiny spiderlings that can easily escape out of the tiniest holes or cracks in the enclosure lids. Again much more to deal with than a scorpion that is having around 50 babies that neatly climb on the mothers back.

Im not picking sides here saying if they should be sold or not, Just saying these are not for me. There are plenty of other cool huntsman or Cupiennius sp. that will give you the same thrill of owning a fast spider, without the risk of death.

Later, Tom

there is no reasonable similarities in potential danger between Phoneutria and tarantulas, scorpions, centipedes, etc.

Let me really highlight why pho is like nothing else currently in the hobby:
1) kills under its belt. potential for deadliness is NOT debatable
2) can climb glass. scorpions are for retards, compared to the locomotive ability of Pho
3) they can *kind of* jump in addition to being literally quicker than most humans can track and see
4) is an r-selected breeder. a single gravid pho female can make TEN THOUSAND tiny babies who are programmed to disperse, go forth, and multiply. i believe the babies can glasswalk, and they are TINY at first. even the most fecund of the possibly deadly scorpions would be hard pressed to make 500 babies....
5) is large enough to inject quite a bit of venom
6) and on top of all that, it might actually be one of the very few bugs that does have a bite first and ask questions later policy. normally aggression is not a great survival selected choice... but for an r-selected with king venom it makes a certain amount of sense. the individual might die... but for the greater good of the species

You can find bugs in the hobby currently that have some of those traits, but afaik, NOT ALL OF THEM... and THAT is where the potential for catastrophe lies!

Now, let us talk about venom for a minute. I see some fairly malformed ideas about the slings being unable to "bite through the skin". ooh, bad news for you under educated jokers out there... your skin happens to be the largest and likely most vascular tissue in your body. so... actually the spider just has to be able to pierce the outer layer of hard, dead skin cells and then pierce a cell or capilary. heck, i bet their venom is effective in any injection situation (into skin, fat, muscle, vein, etc). jellyfish barbs are way smaller the 2i pho fangs... and they work just fine!

And you know what? even without antivenom... you really aren't *that* likely to die from a bite in the USA. they almost certainly can treat you symptomatically. of course... your liver might stop working. or you could get a heart mummer (don't worry though, it would probably just be a little one). or... maybe you get a nice dose of neuralgia or something. mmmm, just what i want... untreatable, undiagnosable pain for the rest of my life! the real problem you are likely to experience with strong, complex neurotoxins isn't actually death... it is being permanently mangled. also, i can EASILY see mechanisms for suffering no apparent damage from an envenomation, but then having a predisposition to having a heart attack or other organic failure or disruption later on.

Here is what scares me. In europe it seems like most posters with Pho' are hardcore hobbyists that are really interested in the husbandry aspects of the spiders. ppl like that might be able to contain the spiders and not have any mistakes... and if they do much of europe has hard winters which dramatically reduce the chance of any escapees making it for more than a year on their own. Here in the USA i have someone who has the better part of a thousand Pho babies tryign to tell me the babies are safe cuz they can't bite through skin!? further, i reckon there are large parts of CA, TX, FL, AL, etc that pho could colonize rather handily.
I find it a bit disappointing that so many people think this point is even worth arguing. It's an incredibly dangerous spider. Yes the appearance, behaviors and husbandry challenges are fascinating but so are those of dozens of different species who aren't as dangerous. Why take the risk with this one?

In my estimation there are just a few keepers up to the challenge and the responsibility of keeping this species. They might add up to .05% of the arachnid keeping population of the US. Might...
Maybe not even that many.

The ins and outs of regulating imports are a slippery slope and a debate best held in another thread BUT, if there were a list of species who's importation should be controlled this is right at the top of that list. My opinion is that these spiders should be kept only by the most highly experienced keepers and assorted scientific institutions for research purposes. As Ken (TBG) recently found out, they probably shouldn't even be advertised publicly. For reasons previously stated, breeding should be done under strictly monitored double-safe conditions.

Of course it is only my opinion but I think anyone who doesn't feel similarly falls into the 99.95% who are not qualified to keep this species (like myself). In many cases it has nothing to do with skill level and everything to do with attitude. I've seen a few of those wrong type attitudes here in this thread. Those guys should stick with the "easy" stuff like potentially deadly scorpions and vipers. At least they don't have 1000 pinhead sized babies and can usually be caught if they escape.

Now please y'all, don't yell at me :)
To those of you who are still trying to compare this to anything else in the hobby right now, there is NO comparison!

As caco pointed out, there's nothing else that makes these guys as dangerous as they are. It's not just one or two qualities, it's several that, combined, make them so risky.
 

KenTheBugGuy

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ok

this does not change the debate but these are all going to a couple institutions. 2 people have 1 baby and no one has to worry about them breeding or getting into other hobbyist hands. Sorry to have caused such a rucuss but me posting that originally was to try and find some zoos and such that would want them and if a responsible hobbyist wanted one for the right reasons well I did not feel it was a huge issue. Anyways feel free to debate more but they are gone now and not to hobbyist as some of you feared.
 

cacoseraph

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another thing:


as far as i can tell, the ONLY thing that makes pho unique is their venom. every other characteristic can be found in another spider. hell, there are other ctenids that have every characteristic EXCEPT the venom.... so really... what exactly are ppl looking for when they want to get a pho?


they want THE MOST DEADLY venom they can get their hands on. *that* is a horrible motivation







also, i am curious.... how will these be shipped? cuz... i mean, you can take a certain amount of latitude with tarantulas... but pho would be an UNHOLY NIGHTMARE to have a shipping snafu with. i think it is deepest evil for virually anyone to ship these on the down low. i mean, think about it... i've seen a pretty decent negative correlation between the dangerousness of a bug and how well it is packed. that makes sense... ppl are just trying to get things good enough without gettinng bit. and "good enough" is NOT a phrase that should be in a pho keepers vocabulary. realistically, genius though i am, i could not design a completely fail safe way of shipping these bugs without spending lots of money on massively nested containers with killer fail safes built in







and really, i am not worried about anyone that currently has the spiders. i am worried about 3-4 years down the road, when there *hasn't* been any accidents, and there have been a few sacs, and they have finally started filtering out to any ol' idiot able to trade for them. that is when you will see myconium impact high velocity rotating atmospheric agitators
 

Moltar

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Ken I just want to say publicly that I think you handled this situation just fine. I have never heard/read anything from you or anybody else to indicate that you are anything other than a complete professional. Any person who would think you'd sell something like this to just anybody with a credit card has some learnin' to do.
 

cacoseraph

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I appreciate your opinion and reasoning.....I do disagree w/ your Jellyfish Comment though..... Different physical means of "stinging" your flesh. And I don't think a 2nd Instar can Pierce epidermis enough. You make some Good points though.
oh i never said anything except that a jellyfish only penetrates a part of a millimeter and they still job ppl. i fully realize the possibly supersonic pneumatocyst lance is a very special thing in nature. but in NO WAY am i wrong about skin injections not being dangerous/effective. it's called an intradermal injection and is used in medicine for various things. and i have a hard time believing a baby spider can't piece through a couple layers of cells. cells are, um, rather tiny =P

it just kills me to see ppl assuming your skin is some kind of impervious barrier or something
 

KenTheBugGuy

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thansk

Ken I just want to say publicly that I think you handled this situation just fine. I have never heard/read anything from you or anybody else to indicate that you are anything other than a complete professional. Anybody who would think you'd sell something like this to just anybody has some learnin' to do.
I appreciate that and think this debate is not a bad one. I don't think it solves much but it does get us all thinking atleast. At some future date I am sure someone will bring in more of these and well I think it is inevitable that they will be distributed to the hobby at some point too. Well anyways I think I am dropping out of the debate as I have stated my opinions pretty well and read plenty of other opinions that were interesting. I hope I also did not offend anyone as I did not mean too if I did was just purely my opinions on stuff.
 

Moltar

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i have a hard time believing a baby spider can't piece through a couple layers of cells. cells are, um, rather tiny =P

it just kills me to see ppl assuming your skin is some kind of impervious barrier or something
Do you think this comes from the urban legend about Harvestmen (Opiliones)? You know; "A daddy longlegs is the most poisonous spider in the world. It just cain't bite threw yo skin." :wall:{D
 

John Apple

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Opinions asside here I want to know something....how many of you folk have a can of raid in you vert room to blast any excapee you can't catch....well I do and it goes with me to the bathroom tub when I have to maintain the huntsman and other 'fast' beasties...
Kind of funny it hangs on my vert wall like a fire extinguisher, have not had to use it yet:cool:
 

KenTheBugGuy

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Opinions asside here I want to know something....how many of you folk have a can of raid in you vert room to blast any excapee you can't catch....well I do and it goes with me to the bathroom tub when I have to maintain the huntsman and other 'fast' beasties...
Kind of funny it hangs on my vert wall like a fire extinguisher, have not had to use it yet:cool:
Man that is a good idea! :)
 

AzJohn

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this does not change the debate but these are all going to a couple institutions. 2 people have 1 baby and no one has to worry about them breeding or getting into other hobbyist hands. Sorry to have caused such a rucuss but me posting that originally was to try and find some zoos and such that would want them and if a responsible hobbyist wanted one for the right reasons well I did not feel it was a huge issue. Anyways feel free to debate more but they are gone now and not to hobbyist as some of you feared.

Hi Ken,
It appears to me the the US invert hobby isn't ready for this species. It's a shame really. It was pointed out that in the venomous snake hobby, a new, rare species is celebrated not questioned or condemned. I hope this doesn't keep you or other dealers from getting more unsual species.

And folks can we honnestly say that our hobby doesn't have any dangerous inverts in it all ready. Just look at all the threads about people under 18 keeping OW tarantulas. It looks about like this thread.

As far as who ends up keeping them. Look at the European hobby. How common are they really? I think the difficulty in raising them along with danger will keep them in the hands of experienced keepers. Accidents don't happen. The overwhelming percentage of escapes are the result of carless keepers. People who say accidents happen shouldn't keep hots.

All that being said. This species doesn't belong with everyone. But experienced keepers should be allowed the opportunity to work with them


John
 

Fran

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Accidents don't happen. . People who say accidents happen shouldn't keep hots.


John
No offense, but thats one of the most stupid things I have ever read, and I really hope you didnt mean it.

For the people who need me to explain what I said before...
Geez, forget about percentages.
What I mean is that, no matter how meticulous you are, how many times you double and tripple check, how cautious you are, accidents can happen

Let me repeat it again, I have been keeping this animals for 14 years. Im extremely cautious, responsable,and meticulous to the point of obsession, and still they managed to scape. Till today I have no idea whatsoever how my subfuscas scaped, but they did. Why? Becasue accidents are not controled/pre meditated by anyone. Thats why they are accidents

Now some people are gonna come and tell me that they are better because they have never had an escape? What are we playing here????
How many years of experience you have had keeping spiders?How many? Of course the more you keep the higer the chances. And even if you have many more years keeping them than i do, that doesnt mean anything. It can happen. Period.
Anybody denying this is out of his mind. We dont have a sistem where the enclosure is hermetically closed and never will be opened.
You need to do cage mantenance, feed the T, rehousing...
there are many chances even on a weekly basis where you can suffer an scape. Period. Theres no questions about that.

Please lets be serious here, dont try to tell that is not possible what is perfectly possible.

Keep them if you want, or if you can, if you get bit, and die quite honestly is not gonna affect my 8 hours of sleep at night.

The problem comes when thanks to the stupid desire of some people to keep this specie may perfectly well put in danger others people life.


The funny thing is the people who in my opinion would be more suitable to own this species are exactly the people who is against of keeping them.
 
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syndicate

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Accidents don't happen. The overwhelming percentage of escapes are the result of carless keepers. People who say accidents happen shouldn't keep hots.
If you read this http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83797 you will see that a very experienced keeper of Phoneutria was bit on his 10th year of keeping them!
Accidents can happen unfortunetly..I will also mention after working with huntsman spiders for a couple years now people who have never kept anything like this are not ready for the completely mind blowing speed some of these spiders have!!I had a 2" Heteropoda species from China escape on me while back and in the blink of an eye it was in another room haha!
I keep lots of fast defensive tarantulas here but after working with huntsman there speed is more of a joke to me now!
I agree with you 100% tho that only the most experienced hobbiests should consider keeping these.
For anyone else looking for a really cool true spider that gets big but wont kill you keep your eyes peeled on the FS/T page for these soon ;]



-Chris
 

xhexdx

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Hi Ken,
It appears to me the the US invert hobby isn't ready for this species. It's a shame really. It was pointed out that in the venomous snake hobby, a new, rare species is celebrated not questioned or condemned. I hope this doesn't keep you or other dealers from getting more unsual species.

And folks can we honnestly say that our hobby doesn't have any dangerous inverts in it all ready. Just look at all the threads about people under 18 keeping OW tarantulas. It looks about like this thread.

As far as who ends up keeping them. Look at the European hobby. How common are they really? I think the difficulty in raising them along with danger will keep them in the hands of experienced keepers. Accidents don't happen. The overwhelming percentage of escapes are the result of carless keepers. People who say accidents happen shouldn't keep hots.

All that being said. This species doesn't belong with everyone. But experienced keepers should be allowed the opportunity to work with them


John
It appears to me that posts are still not being understood.

Fran explained it pretty well, I thought.

Accidents CAN happen.

To respond specifically to the bolded text above:

:wall:

You're still trying to compare OW tarantulas to Phoneutria. Again, that's like comparing (John) apples to oranges.

Also, you're trying to compare it to keeping hot snakes. Of all the characteristics of Phoneutria cacoseraph listed in an earlier post, which are characteristics of your hot snakes? Only venom, right?

Your comparisons are severely flawed, sorry.
 

Scorpendra

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also, i am curious.... how will these be shipped? cuz... i mean, you can take a certain amount of latitude with tarantulas... but pho would be an UNHOLY NIGHTMARE to have a shipping snafu with. i think it is deepest evil for virually anyone to ship these on the down low. i mean, think about it... i've seen a pretty decent negative correlation between the dangerousness of a bug and how well it is packed. that makes sense... ppl are just trying to get things good enough without gettinng bit. and "good enough" is NOT a phrase that should be in a pho keepers vocabulary. realistically, genius though i am, i could not design a completely fail safe way of shipping these bugs without spending lots of money on massively nested containers with killer fail safes built in
It seems like everyone's content to argue about how evil they are rather than to discuss the actual logistics of their care. For the life of me, I'm curious as to how people who have Phos deal with things like this.
 
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sharpfang

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Interesting Topic

oh i never said anything except that a jellyfish only penetrates a part of a millimeter and they still job ppl. i fully realize the possibly supersonic pneumatocyst lance is a very special thing in nature. but in NO WAY am i wrong about skin injections not being dangerous/effective. it's called an intradermal injection and is used in medicine for various things. and i have a hard time believing a baby spider can't piece through a couple layers of cells. cells are, um, rather tiny =P

it just kills me to see ppl assuming your skin is some kind of impervious barrier or something
Anyone know Cacoseraph's address ??? I'll send the family Flowers :cool:

WOW!!!!!! I didn't mean 4 my comment to "KILL" U :rolleyes:, Infact, I feel I was friendly and FAIR - In my response to your post. I did Not say 7 layers of epidermis were Impenetrable by a small spider/tarantula.....Just NOT, a 2nd Instar tarantula/spider :? And U don't respect it, Even after I showed you Respect. It is my opinion.....I had a 1" Suntiger - KNAW {D at my hand for 60 seconds straight....feisty guy.....Virtually felt NOTHING, and No envenomation Occured. I'll NAME him "Jellyfish". In ALL Fairness, as I stated:
{Restating -N- new way}
Comparing Jellyfish stings 2 very sm. spider bites.....Is Kumquats & Bananas
Did Not think you'd respond as you did :cool: R.I.P. "Cacoseraph" I am Sorry :(

Opinions asside here I want to know something....how many of you folk have a can of raid in you vert room to blast any excapee you can't catch....well I do and it goes with me to the bathroom tub when I have to maintain the huntsman and other 'fast' beasties...
Kind of funny it hangs on my vert wall like a fire extinguisher, have not had to use it yet:cool:
:clap: I have one John, but felt I'd get backlash on AB, 4 ever stating as such
{As I usually do, 4 my seemingly FAIR opinions :cool:}

- Jason :rolleyes:

That's just my Opinion, I could be Wrong - Dennis Miller
 

cacoseraph

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see, that's the thing... i've had a suntiger (rather convenient that you said that species heh) of just about that size, maybe even a bit smaller give me a good little bite. it's the only tarantula that has ever bitten me, in fact. it was just a super quick bite, but i got a raised red area and it itched a bit.

i've also had baby centipedes bite me. i thought it was funny "cuz they couldn't get through my skin"... well, i got bit by mama later that night.. and you know what? EVERY place a baby bit me that day had a bit of swelling and reddening. in that case their wasn't enough venom injected by the babies to trigger a reaction that was noticeable... but something like a phoneutria can probably trigger reactions with maybe 70-100 microliters of venom... at least in a very small person. venom in that scale can easily be injected intradermally by something the size of a pho 2i. maybe not every bite... maybe not even most bites... but i do really really think it is a possiblity to be considered and not just dismissed out of hand. and if you haven't picked up on it yet... i do have a bit of experience and knowledge in the general subject


am i claiming i absolutely know what is likely to happen, or even possible? no way... but i can present all kinds of precedents and other kinds of "second degree evidence" that makes me think i have a point that at least bears further considering



edit:
also, one thing... i am not really on any particular "side". right now i can't even think about keeping a pho... and really i probably never actually will. but... i have found them very interesting very approaching maybe 20 years now... and a small part of me would really like to keep one. i am fairly confident i can build a fail safe system and protocol to contain one spider or kill it in the event of an earthquake type of situation. but... not right now and not in the near foreseeable future. (heh, foreseeable has three vowels in a row). i guess if i *was* on a side, it would be the one were people realize these are bugs unlike ANYTHING in the mainstream bug hobby and a huge amount of thought needs to go into actually getting one.

maybe i should make a design or two to show ppl what i mean about killer fail safe stuff.
 
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John Apple

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Jason My hat is off to you for the can of raid....:worship:


some measures taken by some folk would be called cruel...but an effort like this can and will help in the case of an excape....there are other ways I am sure but this is straight and to the point...imo
 

PaMBiX

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"Brazilian Wandering Spiders (aranhas armadeiras), Phoneutria nigriventer, P. keyserlingi and P. fera, are sometimes said to have the world's most toxic spider venom – probably based on a well publicized study where mice were killed by intravenous injection of as little as 0.006 mg of venom. Since I'm a man, not a mouse, that doesn't worry me much. Authoritative sources state that over 7,000 authentic cases of human bites from these spiders have been recorded, with only around 10 known deaths, and about 2% of cases serious enough to need antivenom. So despite the surprisingly large number of bites, this spider is not exactly public enemy number one either."

http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/spidermyth/myths/downunder.html

in case you were wondering, 10 / 7000 is about .0015% of bites resulting in death.
this is from a museum's "spider myths" site that i linked, but if that doesn't seem reliable this information is all over the place giving the same statistics.

i already said i'd agree to disagree on the subject, just thought if people were going to continue this debate, this information should be included.
 
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