Regarding recent Phoneutria for sale in USA

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John Apple

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man....dramatics;)
accidents can happen with anything here we sell and breed, I can remember me steaming about some cat holding a sicarius on a board somewhere maybe even here....that guy would not be a candidate for a phoneutria...heh
replacing phoneutria with subs and murinus is a lotta scare tactics....kinda like Joe threw a rock at me...man a bullet fired from the gun in his hand would have killed me....:?
 

Fran

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man....dramatics;)
accidents can happen with anything here we sell and breed, I can remember me steaming about some cat holding a sicarius on a board somewhere maybe even here....that guy would not be a candidate for a phoneutria...heh
replacing phoneutria with subs and murinus is a lotta scare tactics....kinda like Joe threw a rock at me...man a bullet fired from the gun in his hand would have killed me....:?
?
My example is perfectly valid, come on. What is the difference?
So pokies and murinus can escape on you but not a Phoneutria?

Thats exactly my point. If by accident my Parahybana scapes, the most I can have is a headache looking for her,getting bitten by one of those wont represent any harm. If a Phoneutria scapes,thats another story.

There are 2 types of people regarding this; The ones who learn after the accident, and the ones who avoid the problem to beging with.
Im the second type.
 

Philth

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Now the only difference in this and a few of the scorpions is these might be faster. Is that the only reason people are argueing against it is cause its faster? Accidents can happen if its fast or super fast I don't see one being much worse than the other. There are species of scorpions that are just plain deadly that we sell....there are also many spiders that we sell that are almost as deadly and would kill many people if bit by them.
Well besides being extremely fast , another major differance is they can climb smooth surfaces. This makes them much harder to deal with than any deadly scorpion in my opinion.

As well when they have babies theres hundreds of tiny spiderlings that can easily escape out of the tiniest holes or cracks in the enclosure lids. Again much more to deal with than a scorpion that is having around 50 babies that neatly climb on the mothers back.

Im not picking sides here saying if they should be sold or not, Just saying these are not for me. There are plenty of other cool huntsman or Cupiennius sp. that will give you the same thrill of owning a fast spider, without the risk of death.

Later, Tom
 

ArachnoYak

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I have been keeping T's for 14 years. I have never EVER had an scape.Ever.

I always double and triple check things, Im quite a perfectionist to the point of almost being obsessive.Well once I had 2 P Subfusca in the tanks, went to sleep, and at 3 AM when going to the bathroom I just thought of checking on them out of the blue and they werent there.

It took me 6 hours, SIX to find them. If one of those would have bitten my wife,I would feel like a total idiot
Am I the only one that finds a contradiction in this statement? Words like "never" are very absolute, yet right after that statement you go on to tell us of one of your escapes, of a pokie no less. Please save your holier than thou attitudes for your friends. There are many keepers on here with way more experience than yourself who can truly say they never had an escape. Perhaps the reason you are so quick to condemn those wanting to keep these is because you think if it happened to you then it will happen to them because you are the self-proclaimed king of arachnids.

Though I digress, back to the OP, I myself wouldn't keep one of these but if someone has the experience and the proper set-up I don't see why they shouldn't be able to. After all, more deaths and injuries are attributed to people losing control of vicious dogs than arachnid keepers.
 

KenTheBugGuy

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Am I the only one that finds a contradiction in this statement? Words like "never" are very absolute, yet right after that statement you go on to tell us of one of your escapes, of a pokie no less. Please save your holier than thou attitudes for your friends. There are many keepers on here with way more experience than yourself who can truly say they never had an escape. Perhaps the reason you are so quick to condemn those wanting to keep these is because you think if it happened to you then it will happen to them because you are the self-proclaimed king of arachnids.

Though I digress, back to the OP, I myself wouldn't keep one of these but if someone has the experience and the proper set-up I don't see why they shouldn't be able to. After all, more deaths and injuries are attributed to people losing control of vicious dogs than arachnid keepers.
I do have to say I agree with the statement of responsiblity. You can take something non venemous and kill people...someone with enough responsibility can own almost anything and not harm anyone else.

Perfect example, the wrong person with venemous animals can easily put them in someones bed, the right person would keep them from getting out. Now if I sold the person that put them in someones bed a PT murinus...am I worse for selling the responsible hobbyist/enomologist something that could kill someone and is fast? I know those are extremes but really think about it. All our animals we are buying in this hobby are venemous and many of them could kill someone be it accident, allergic, foolishness or even one of our children. Be responsible for what you do and buy. All dealers can do is try and facilitate that sometimes. I do my best and I know the other dealers most likely do too. Not only just to be responsible but the last thing anyone wants is a news story about how they sold someone an animal that killed someone
 
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Fran

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Am I the only one that finds a contradiction in this statement? Words like "never" are very absolute, yet right after that statement you go on to tell us of one of your escapes, of a pokie no less. Please save your holier than thou attitudes for your friends. There are many keepers on here with way more experience than yourself who can truly say they never had an escape. Perhaps the reason you are so quick to condemn those wanting to keep these is because you think if it happened to you then it will happen to them because you are the self-proclaimed king of arachnids.

Though I digress, back to the OP, I myself wouldn't keep one of these but if someone has the experience and the proper set-up I don't see why they shouldn't be able to. After all, more deaths and injuries are attributed to people losing control of vicious dogs than arachnid keepers.
???

You didnt understand my post. Either that or you dont want to understand it.
In 14 years I have had 1 escape, and I can put my life on it Im way more meticulous and responsable than 99% of the keepers. Simply because thats the way I am, wheter you believe it or not I couldnt care less, honestly.

This can happen to ANYONE. Denying this is really moronic.

PS: I never self proclamed myself anything. You might wanna learn how to read.
You talk about experience, theres no experience when it comes to accidents. Accidents are called like so because they arent predicted.


Ken, It is IMPOSIBLE to track a spider. Once you sell it to anyone, that person can do whatever he wants with the spider.
Offer someppeople a couple of hundreds and they will sell WHATEVER. ;)
 
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John Apple

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well then with that logic maybe we should stop selling venemous inverts all together.:wall:..yeah that is the solution:rolleyes: control all aspects of our hobby by letting the federallies get involved because some guy or gal is worried about their rights because their neighbor breeds spiders....yup venemous ones...Not to mention the wonderful track record people in europe have with these regarding bites and excapes....Now take it a step further and say a bunch of crap about people here in this country being irresponsible....:eek:...directly or indirectly....well I trust myself and I hope to have one or two of these someday ....why ? because I find them amazing spiders.....not because they are venemous....
 

Fran

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well then with that logic maybe we should stop selling venemous inverts all together.:wall:..yeah that is the solution:rolleyes: control all aspects of our hobby by letting the federallies get involved because some guy or gal is worried about their rights because their neighbor breeds spiders....yup venemous ones...Not to mention the wonderful track record people in europe have with these regarding bites and excapes....Now take it a step further and say a bunch of crap about people here in this country being irresponsible....:eek:...directly or indirectly....well I trust myself and I hope to have one or two of these someday ....why ? because I find them amazing spiders.....not because they are venemous....
Well, thats wonderful. I dont agree with keeping deadly animals just for your amusement.
Its great to have different opinions.
 

John Apple

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isn't that why people keep them...for amusement....isn't watching a form of amusement....isn't observation a form of amusement...isn't flat out learning a form off amusement...our hobby in general is amusing and with that logic...it is a grand experience watching anything from a widow to an andro dispatching prey.....deadly creatures as you say are many in our hobby, it is up to us as breeders and ones in the know to educate others on the wonderful perks and pips in our hobby.:D and of course not to sell them to our neighbors lol
Fran no offence meant towards as I do like you we just disagree on this bro
 
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Ritzman

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and I can put my life on it Im way more meticulous and responsable than 99% of the keepers. Simply because thats the way I am, wheter you believe it or not I couldnt care less, honestly.
There are roughly 3000 active members of this board. You proclaimed yourself a 1%...
1% of 3000 is 30.
So there are only 30 meticulous and responsible keepers. 30 outta 3000 that double check lids and make sure doors are closed and locked.
Kudos to us 30. ;):D
 

ArachnoYak

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???

... and I can put my life on it Im way more meticulous and responsable than 99% of the keepers...
That first statement says it all. I'm done chatting with you. Good luck with your spiders. Try your browbeating on someone who's willing to listen, cause I sure as rain am not.
 

BiologicalJewels

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wow. This topic was beaten to a pulp.
I have read through the thread and found reputable dealers and keepers picking and choosing sides.
I found hobbyist entering into useless bickering over an issue that remains a matter of opinion.
In the end, the keeping of these is a private matter.
To those that are fussing over a possible escape being responsible for the death of any life form, please, understand the fact that this danger is inherent in our hobby.
My neighbors might have a HUGE cow if they knew I kept T's and centipedes.
Granted, if a T bites a person there is a great chance nothing other than minor symptoms happening (not to say they can't develop more serious problems), however, I know just how much my neighbors love their dogs, and know that Tarantula venom has a more drastic effect on canines than on humans.
What I am trying to say is, the sellers are doing a responsible job (methinks) as to whom they sell these to. It is up to these ppl to remain responsible.

And lastly, when it comes down to it, no matter how much experience you have, or how meticulous your keeping is, a mistake is a mistake, and it can happen to me just as much as the best keeper in the hobby.

OR
 

cacoseraph

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this whole thread is a joke


there is no reasonable similarities in potential danger between Phoneutria and tarantulas, scorpions, centipedes, etc.


Let me really highlight why pho is like nothing else currently in the hobby:
1) kills under its belt. potential for deadliness is NOT debatable
2) can climb glass. scorpions are for retards, compared to the locomotive ability of Pho
3) they can *kind of* jump in addition to being literally quicker than most humans can track and see
4) is an r-selected breeder. a single gravid pho female can make TEN THOUSAND tiny babies who are programmed to disperse, go forth, and multiply. i believe the babies can glasswalk, and they are TINY at first. even the most fecund of the possibly deadly scorpions would be hard pressed to make 500 babies....
5) is large enough to inject quite a bit of venom
6) and on top of all that, it might actually be one of the very few bugs that does have a bite first and ask questions later policy. normally aggression is not a great survival selected choice... but for an r-selected with king venom it makes a certain amount of sense. the individual might die... but for the greater good of the species

You can find bugs in the hobby currently that have some of those traits, but afaik, NOT ALL OF THEM... and THAT is where the potential for catastrophe lies!




Now, let us talk about venom for a minute. I see some fairly malformed ideas about the slings being unable to "bite through the skin". ooh, bad news for you under educated jokers out there... your skin happens to be the largest and likely most vascular tissue in your body. so... actually the spider just has to be able to pierce the outer layer of hard, dead skin cells and then pierce a cell or capilary. heck, i bet their venom is effective in any injection situation (into skin, fat, muscle, vein, etc). jellyfish barbs are way smaller the 2i pho fangs... and they work just fine!


And you know what? even without antivenom... you really aren't *that* likely to die from a bite in the USA. they almost certainly can treat you symptomatically. of course... your liver might stop working. or you could get a heart mummer (don't worry though, it would probably just be a little one). or... maybe you get a nice dose of neuralgia or something. mmmm, just what i want... untreatable, undiagnosable pain for the rest of my life! the real problem you are likely to experience with strong, complex neurotoxins isn't actually death... it is being permanently mangled. also, i can EASILY see mechanisms for suffering no apparent damage from an envenomation, but then having a predisposition to having a heart attack or other organic failure or disruption later on.






Here is what scares me. In europe it seems like most posters with Pho' are hardcore hobbyists that are really interested in the husbandry aspects of the spiders. ppl like that might be able to contain the spiders and not have any mistakes... and if they do much of europe has hard winters which dramatically reduce the chance of any escapees making it for more than a year on their own. Here in the USA i have someone who has the better part of a thousand Pho babies tryign to tell me the babies are safe cuz they can't bite through skin!? further, i reckon there are large parts of CA, TX, FL, AL, etc that pho could colonize rather handily.
 

KenTheBugGuy

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ahh....

Black widows are slow so they should be ok but there are some centipedes that could kill a baby, are fast, can climb to a certain extent, I have found them to be really smart, and they are plain aggresive sometimes. They are master escape artist unless kept in some tall glass or plastic tank. I hate packing Malaysian giants sometimes ;) I am guessing in the right place they could also survive here in the US. I know this can be countered a million times but just saying its like saying there is a line that should not be crossed but where is that line. Are centipedes too aggressive, scorpions venom too high, some spiders too fast, if they can survive here somewhere, you say its cause it has many of these items but so do some of the other animals we have. Many people that are not in our hobby think its insane for it to be legal for us to have any of this stuff for just one of the reasons I listed above. If it has 5 traits then they are right? how about just 2 of the traits?...oh wait thats half my collection at least :(

Oh and I have been at a show and heard someone say they don't know why anyone would want a centipede cause of some of those traits.
 
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Fran

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That first statement says it all. I'm done chatting with you. Good luck with your spiders. Try your browbeating on someone who's willing to listen, cause I sure as rain am not.
If you are not whiling to listen to opinions, why are you a member of an internet board to begin with. :rolleyes:

Dont listen, I couldnt care less.
 

John Apple

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Informative Andrew....but the fact remains.....some folk are going to have them and perhaps some allready do....
They are badassed...yeah it has been said
they are fast...yeah it has been said
they have deaths under their belts...yeah it has been said
they can habitate many areas in the states....yeah it has been said
So how many people reading this thread will want one or two because they are bad assed spiders and have read all the stuff here or how many people will want them for the sheer enjoyment of observation purposes, the opportunity to raise one after doing all the required research....if I get one or two they will never be bred or sold....they will live a long virgin lifestyle....I have been reading about these guys for some years now and they facinate me....that is my stance on them...hey Fran want to be neighbors....kidding bro
 

AzJohn

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Black widows are slow so they should be ok but there are some centipedes that could kill a baby, are fast, can climb to a certain extent, I have found them to be really smart, and they are plain aggresive sometimes. They are master escape artist unless kept in some tall glass or plastic tank. I hate packing Malaysian giants sometimes ;) I am guessing in the right place they could also survive here in the US. I know this can be countered a million times but just saying its like saying there is a line that should not be crossed but where is that line. Are centipedes too aggressive, scorpions venom too high, some spiders too fast, if they can survive here somewhere, you say its cause it has many of these items but so do some of the other animals we have. Many people that are not in our hobby think its insane for it to be legal for us to have any of this stuff for just one of the reasons I listed above. If it has 5 traits then they are right? how about just 2 of the traits?...oh wait thats half my collection at least :(

Oh and I have been at a show and heard someone say they don't know why anyone would want a centipede cause of some of those traits.
I think you nailed on this one. No ones wants to really examine there own collection. When pokies are compared to Phoneutria people won't agree. Honnestly if a pokie tags a three year old, that kid is going to the hospital, and there life might very well be in danger. But it must be different because I love my pokies. They wouldn't hurt anyone.


John
 

kripp_keeper

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I'm personally very afraid of "true spiders":rolleyes:, and would not own a true spider of any sorts. BUT its unfair to say that anything is to dangerous, because honestly then everything with venom should be. Like it has been mentioned some people just have bad reactions. How many people have died from allergic reactions to honey bees?

Fran....how many tarantulas do you have? Also for a double checker you had an "scape" well tisk tisk.


By the way I also double check everything, even though I don't have much. Guess I'm in with the elite 30 woot woot.
 

Moltar

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I find it a bit disappointing that so many people think this point is even worth arguing. It's an incredibly dangerous spider. Yes the appearance, behaviors and husbandry challenges are fascinating but so are those of dozens of different species who aren't as dangerous. Why take the risk with this one?

In my estimation there are just a few keepers up to the challenge and the responsibility of keeping this species. They might add up to .05% of the arachnid keeping population of the US. Might...
Maybe not even that many.

The ins and outs of regulating imports are a slippery slope and a debate best held in another thread BUT, if there were a list of species who's importation should be controlled this is right at the top of that list. My opinion is that these spiders should be kept only by the most highly experienced keepers and assorted scientific institutions for research purposes. As Ken (TBG) recently found out, they probably shouldn't even be advertised publicly. For reasons previously stated, breeding should be done under strictly monitored double-safe conditions.

Of course it is only my opinion but I think anyone who doesn't feel similarly falls into the 99.95% who are not qualified to keep this species (like myself). In many cases it has nothing to do with skill level and everything to do with attitude. I've seen a few of those wrong type attitudes here in this thread. Those guys should stick with the "easy" stuff like potentially deadly scorpions and vipers. At least they don't have 1000 pinhead sized babies and can usually be caught if they escape.

Now please y'all, don't yell at me :)
 
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